Health Care: A few relevant facts

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Here you go, amicus: Actual information, not bullshit made up by screaming morons.

***

One of the sources of acrimony in the current debate about health reform is the feeling by most Americans that adequate health care is available to all. One survey (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=unmet-needs-for-uninsured) showed that over half of Americans believe that the uninsured get the coverage they need. Unfortunately, that's simply not the case.

Over 44,000 people die in the US each year as a result of not having health insurance. If you're uninsured and between 17 and 64 you are 40% more likely to die than an insured person in the same age group. Forty percent. And that's after adjusting for alcohol, smoking, and other risk factors. (http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...lack-of-insurance-causes-more-than-2009-09-17) That uninsured group includes 46.3 million Americans, likely more now because of the recession's layoff.

Emergency rooms and firefighters constitute the primary health care for many of the uninsured (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/04/us/04firehouse.html?pagewanted=1&hp) because they cannot be turned away and have no real option for preventative care.

We've all heard the WHO's findings about the US health care system from back in 2000: The US ranked 37th, worldwide, in their analysis. They no longer put the rankings out, but we would certainly rank lower now since we've fallen in every measured category. Our life expectancy continues to fall behind, our infant mortality continues to fall behind, access to care continues to lag, and we still spend more per capita than any other nation. A few numbers:

Life Expectancy: According to the CDC(http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus08.pdf#026), the overall life expectancy in the US is 77.8 years. For whites, it's half a year higher at 78.3, which would be 32nd in the world. For blacks it's only 73.2 years. Overall we are 50th in the world, behind every western democracy and such noted health hot spots as Bosnia and Herzegovina, Hong Kong and Macau, and Israel, where the occasional rocket attack or suicide bomb aren't enough to skew the statistics below us. Americans can expect to live only a few months longer than Argentines, Cubans, Chileans, Libyans, and Albanians. We drip scorn on Mexico, but we only outlive Mexicans by a little more than a year.

Infant Mortality: This is the hardest one for the spin doctors to lie about. We are now 33rd in infant mortality. Take a minute and digest that. Thirty-third. Again, we're far behind every western democracy. And, amicus, since you like to blame race, you might be interested to know that according to the CDC's figures, US white people alone would only climb to 31st.

Cost: Frankly, we're getting robbed. We spend twice as much per capita as anyone. While we're over $8000, second place (Switzerland) is more than a thousand dollars back, and no one else on earth spends more than $3k per capita(http://ucatlas.ucsc.edu/spend.php). Most western democracies are in the $1500-$2500 range, and all have better care than we do. We spend an insane 16% of the entire GDP (Gross Domestic Product, the dollar value of every single thing produced in one year) of the nation on health care, a percentage that even conservative estimates say without reform will double over the next 25 years. Obviously, a third of the GDP going to health care is not sustainable.

For that vast expenditure we get fewer doctors per capita (2.43 per 1,000 population compared to a first-world average of 3.1), fewer acute care hospital beds (2.7 here to an average of 3.8, with Japan having 8.2 for half the expenditure), and other nations are steadily passing us in availability of high-tech equipment like CT scanners, which is an area in which we've always enjoyed a significant advantage.

Who bears this cost? Insurance premiums have climbed 130% over the last ten years, compared to cumulative inflation of 29% and wage increases of 34%(http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7692_02.pdf). That puts a big burden on employers, big enough to force a lot of them to not offer coverage at all. And one in five American families has experienced significant financial hardship because of medical expenses. The public sector (Medicare, etc- our tax dollars, in other words) bears 46% of the weight, meaning we spend more than most developed nations before a single dollar is spent on private insurance. Or, turned around, that we spend more on private insurance than most countries spend on their entire health care systems and still have to subsidize with an almost equal amount of tax dollars.

In other words, we all bear the cost. 62% of all family bankruptcies are due to medical expenses (http://www.scientificamerican.com/b...re-medical-costs-the-leading-cause-2009-06-05), most of those bankruptcies being among people who not only had insurance, but had homes and middle level incomes.

The only ones doing well in this system are the private insurance companies. We as a nation subsidize their profits by picking up the tab for the health care of the elderly and chronically ill. We allow the insurance companies to dump those most likely to have medical expenses off on us and only insure the healthy. And so they continue to turn in record profits, only drug & oil companies are more successful than the health insurance industry.

Clearly, reform of some sort is necessary. Cost alone dictates it, even if we set aside the health of those presently uninsured.


Edited to reflect this year's costs as opposed to the older ones I'd used.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

While we're here, let's clarify some of the terminology being thrown around about health-care reform. The truth is that the proposed US national insurance plan would be unique in the world. Comparisons to the systems in place in other nations are of limited value, but they can at least help us establish a debate based on the facts instead of the incendiary rhetoric.

Socialist or socialized medicine: The most accurate definition of the term is a system in which the government runs health care and doctors, nurses, etc are government employees. More recently, it's been used for any national system in which health care is paid for by the taxpayers out of the government's general fund, i.e. Great Britain and Canada, even though the actual providers in those countries are still private.

Neither model is an accurate description of the options on the table in the US. What is being discussed here is a national insurance plan, where tax dollars would only be used to initially establish the plan. The ongoing funding would be provided by the participants, not the taxpayers in general, just like any other insurance package. In other words, those with private insurance would not pay for those on the national plan.

Single-payer system: This means that there is only one primary payer, the government. With significant specific variances, it is the model in place in Britain, Canada, Spain, and many other western nations. Any secondary coverage providers in a single-payer system are optional and on top of the national coverage, and are primarily used by those with significant disposable income to attempt to guarantee higher access to care. It does NOT mean that the government runs health care. Hospitals and other facilities remain private and are allowed to be run for profit. It only means the government plan pays.

This is not one of the options being discussed in the US health care debate. Both the House and Senate plans, and every other plan being discussed, are insurance plans that would coexist with private insurance, possibly competing to some degree. Still a multi-payer system, in other words.

Rationing and waiting lists: Several nations, most notably Great Britain, have such a shortage of specialists and equipment that some care is rationed and many other kinds require lengthy waits. It's a critical problem, but it isn't related to how they pay for health care. They'd have the same problem under any insurance system, be it the current US model or the most socialized of care. It is not a threat here, and it certainly isn't a part of any plan that's ever been discussed by this administration or any other.

Also worth noting is the fact that many of the types of care that are rationed in Great Britain are completely unavailable to the uninsured and the underinsured in the US. You may wait months to get arthroscopic surgery on a lingering shoulder problem in Britain: in the US you will simply never have the surgery.

And one last note on the subject- Several anti-reform groups like to cite cancer survival rates as evidence that the health care systems in Great Britain and Canada ration people to death. The problem is that they're citing out-of-date studies (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/09/a-false-appeal-to-womens-fears/) and willfully distorting facts. In the early nineties breast cancer screening was just beginning in Britain; regular screening for other types of cancer, including prostate, are only now coming to prominence. Accordingly, in the early nineties the US health care system scored much higher against cancer. Today, with their screening much like ours, the survival rates are much more similar. It's possible to cherry-pick results to support any position on this subject- US breast cancer survival rates still beat Great Britain's, Canada's prostate cancer survival rates edge ours, etc- but cherry-picking is what it is. Survival rates vary from region to region within the US by far more than they do from country to country.

The most useful comparison here when discussing survival rates is between the insured and the uninsured in the US. Americans with insurance have a 5-year breast cancer survival rate of 85%; without insurance it's only 75%. For colon cancer, the insured survive 63% of the time; the uninsured only 49%. And the numbers hold across the board: those with coverage are better than 10% more likely to survive than those without.

Euthanasia: Honestly, I can't believe this is still part of the discussion. To be absolutely crystal clear- there is nothing even vaguely related to killing grandma, grandpa, great-uncle Fred, or anyone else in any of the legislation being discussed. It is an insurance plan, not a change in the US penal code. One of the things being said now is "There's nothing in the plan that bans euthanasia." Well, there's nothing in the plan that bans jaywalking, aggravated assault, or cheating on your taxes, either. Why would there be? It's an insurance plan, not a fascist revolution. It's not even a government takeover of health care, it's just an insurance plan. And, in point of fact, care for the elderly would be improved in several ways. (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/false-euthanasia-claims/)

So that's what these plans are not.

There are legitimate questions about health reform, both in general and in the case of these plans. It would be useful to be able to discuss them in an actual constructive way, if we could please get past the idiotic rhetoric. There are questions about whether mandating consumer participation is even constitutional, for example, but we as a nation haven't even gotten around to that discussion because we've been distracted by the screaming morons.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

60 MINUTE MAN

You do a fine job of parroting the socialist talking points.

But the fact izzzz the Mexicans and Blacks depress our healthcare scores becuz they fill asses with caps, dont take care of their babies, and bring their shit with them when they swim cross duh ribber. Datz whut duh problem izzz.

The bulk of the uninsured who die are winos and crack addicts and bums.

 

[lance gt]

60 MINUTE MAN

You do a fine job of parroting the socialist talking points.

But the fact izzzz the Mexicans and Blacks depress our healthcare scores becuz they fill asses with caps, dont take care of their babies, and bring their shit with them when they swim cross duh ribber. Datz whut duh problem izzz.

The bulk of the uninsured who die are winos and crack addicts and bums.

C'mon Jimmy, back it up with some cool stats. We love stats. They impress us so much.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

C'mon Jimmy, back it up with some cool stats. We love stats. They impress us so much.

Verify it yourself; I already told you I dont play the game where you reject every source I bring you. Its a fools errand and Homey dont play that game.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

60 MINUTE MAN

You do a fine job of parroting the socialist talking points.

But the fact izzzz the Mexicans and Blacks depress our healthcare scores becuz they fill asses with caps, dont take care of their babies, and bring their shit with them when they swim cross duh ribber. Datz whut duh problem izzz.

The bulk of the uninsured who die are winos and crack addicts and bums.

Can you actually read? I put the stats for whites, minorities removed, right there in the post. You can't blame those evil dark people for white Americans not living as long as Europeans, Japanese, etc, JBJ.

And wow, 46 million+ winos, bums, and crack addicts. Amazing. Really amazing that so many of them have jobs. Kind of figured that went against the whole "bum" thing.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

60 MINUTE MAN SAID: Over 44,000 people die in the US each year as a result of not having health insurance.

Now he sez its 44 million.

FACTCHECK.ORG is a player on the Usual Suspect Team. When Barry makes a claim thats 90% bullspit FACTCHECK scores it MOSTLY CORRECT.

Get outta here!

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Pay attention: 46 million don't have insurance. According to that study, 44 thousand die from it. Get it?

No? Of course not.

And FactCheck is only on your enemies list if the truth is your enemy. You could find plenty of stuff to hammer away at Obama there, I use it all the time when I'm arguing with someone who's had too much of the democrat Kool-Aid.

 

[jacks4u]

60 MINUTE MAN

You do a fine job of parroting the socialist talking points.

But the fact izzzz the Mexicans and Blacks depress our healthcare scores becuz they fill asses with caps, dont take care of their babies, and bring their shit with them when they swim cross duh ribber. Datz whut duh problem izzz.

The bulk of the uninsured who die are winos and crack addicts and bums.

JBJ,

C'mon dude! is that all you can offer? Racist remarks and narrow minded bigotry against the disadvantaged? With no numbers to back your bold assertions.

I'll say this to anyone voicing 'opinion' here, the way one of my employers phrased it, back about 18 years ago - "Without the numbers, you're just another jerk with an opinion."

Go away, find something besides just narrow minded and racist opinion, bring it back with you for intelligent, thought provoking discussion

Bring facts, figures, numbers to the table, from actual sources. Yea, real data. WHO, CIA, whatever, as long as they are real numbers, not the crap dreamed up in someone's head, and you will be listened to.

.

Jacks

 

[Dragonlipz]

Yo, SMM,
Mon Ami (amicus), JBJ, TS, and the rest of us have no use for your socialist, arrant nonsense. We're not interested in your 'facts'.....We know what the truth is and you're not gonna change our minds.....
The Truth is:
This Obamacare is nothing more than an attempt by the unwashed leftists to take over and fuck up a well-run, viable, and healthy economic entity. He and his thieving cronies are lining up to line their pockets when this industry is taken over by the government.
The government has already taken over the auto and the banking industries. After they take away our ability to protect ourselves, via the repeal of the second amendment and the subsequent rounding up of radicals (terrorists) and their guns (if the weapons are registered, it makes it pretty easy to find them and the owners) the American people will have no recourse but to submit to the whims of Obama and his new world order.
After he suspends the rest of the Constitution that he's pledged to destroy and appoints himself Leader for Life, he will enter into an unholy alliance with the Muslim World to convert our Christian nation - our sons will chant the Koran and our daughters will bear their children. Only the uber-rich and Obama's friends will be safe from the hatred that will sweep our land....
Obamacare is just another slice of destruction for the proud American way of life....
We all need to educate ourselves to the danger that Obama and his agenda represents.....We need our country back.....

 

[jacks4u]

Yo, SMM,
Mon Ami (amicus), JBJ, TS, and the rest of us have no use for your socialist, arrant nonsense. We're not interested in your 'facts'.....We know what the truth is and you're not gonna change our minds.....
The Truth is:
This Obamacare is nothing more than an attempt by the unwashed leftists to take over and fuck up a well-run, viable, and healthy economic entity. He and his thieving cronies are lining up to line their pockets when this industry is taken over by the government.
The government has already taken over the auto and the banking industries. After they take away our ability to protect ourselves, via the repeal of the second amendment and the subsequent rounding up of radicals (terrorists) and their guns (if the weapons are registered, it makes it pretty easy to find them and the owners) the American people will have no recourse but to submit to the whims of Obama and his new world order.
After he suspends the rest of the Constitution that he's pledged to destroy and appoints himself Leader for Life, he will enter into an unholy alliance with the Muslim World to convert our Christian nation - our sons will chant the Koran and our daughters will bear their children. Only the uber-rich and Obama's friends will be safe from the hatred that will sweep our land....
Obamacare is just another slice of destruction for the proud American way of life....
We all need to educate ourselves to the danger that Obama and his agenda represents.....We need our country back.....

LOL, Dragonlipz!

You tell a good yarn! Write that up and submit it to "non-erotic" and we'll all give you good marks!


Jacks

 

[lance gt]

Yo, SMM,
Mon Ami (amicus), JBJ, TS, and the rest of us have no use for your socialist, arrant nonsense. We're not interested in your 'facts'.....We know what the truth is and you're not gonna change our minds.....
The Truth is:
This Obamacare is nothing more than an attempt by the unwashed leftists to take over and fuck up a well-run, viable, and healthy economic entity. He and his thieving cronies are lining up to line their pockets when this industry is taken over by the government.
The government has already taken over the auto and the banking industries. After they take away our ability to protect ourselves, via the repeal of the second amendment and the subsequent rounding up of radicals (terrorists) and their guns (if the weapons are registered, it makes it pretty easy to find them and the owners) the American people will have no recourse but to submit to the whims of Obama and his new world order.
After he suspends the rest of the Constitution that he's pledged to destroy and appoints himself Leader for Life, he will enter into an unholy alliance with the Muslim World to convert our Christian nation - our sons will chant the Koran and our daughters will bear their children. Only the uber-rich and Obama's friends will be safe from the hatred that will sweep our land....
Obamacare is just another slice of destruction for the proud American way of life....
We all need to educate ourselves to the danger that Obama and his agenda represents.....We need our country back.....

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha. That sounds so funny, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Pay attention: 46 million don't have insurance. According to that study, 44 thousand die from it. Get it?

No? Of course not.

And FactCheck is only on your enemies list if the truth is your enemy. You could find plenty of stuff to hammer away at Obama there, I use it all the time when I'm arguing with someone who's had too much of the democrat Kool-Aid.

23 MILLION are illegal Mexicans.

 

[JamesSD]

Quit scaring JBJ and amicus with your facts and figures! Republicans don't like actual numbers and data unless they're fabricated by think-tanks to support their beliefs.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Hahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahaha. That sounds so funny, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Meet Dragonlipz. He's undercover for the left-- and under the covers of some blond barrista, as I recall-- Are you guys still at it DL?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Oh you guys think facts fall out of Barry's ass once a day. Then STELLA dumps them in a bowl, mashes them up with a fork, and tells you what they mean.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

23 MILLION are illegal Mexicans.

No, JBJ, they aren't. That figure is American citizens.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Pay attention: 46 million don't have insurance. According to that study, 44 thousand die from it. Get it?

No? Of course not.

And FactCheck is only on your enemies list if the truth is your enemy. You could find plenty of stuff to hammer away at Obama there, I use it all the time when I'm arguing with someone who's had too much of the democrat Kool-Aid.

Let's see... 46 million of which 20-30 million are illegal aliens. Send them home let their country take care of them. That leaves what?...16 to 26 million uninsured of which about 10 million are eligible for medicare or medicaid...get them enrolled. So that leaves us with 6 to 16 million uninsured...of which those that are unemployed and between jobs don't have insurance...that would be about million or so. That leaves 5 to 15 million of which 10 million are those young enough to think they are invincible and need that BMW instead. Leaving roughly 2.5 million uninsured. A lot different that 44 million.

 

[cloudy]

Let's see... 46 million of which 20-30 million are illegal aliens. Send them home let their country take care of them. That leaves what?...16 to 26 million uninsured of which about 10 million are eligible for medicare or medicaid...get them enrolled. So that leaves us with 6 to 16 million uninsured...of which those that are unemployed and between jobs don't have insurance...that would be about million or so. That leaves 5 to 15 million of which 10 million are those young enough to think they are invincible and need that BMW instead. Leaving roughly 2.5 million uninsured. A lot different that 44 million.

Sources, please.

Oh, wait...you're pulling those numbers out of your ass, I'm sure.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No, JBJ, they aren't. That figure is American citizens.

Nope it includes the Mexicans and all the other illegals.

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Nope it includes the Mexicans and all the other illegals.

Here you go: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/hlthins/hlthins.html

That's the US Census Bureau's Health Insurance portal. You can find all the numbers right there. And the stats I'm quoting are from 2008, meaning they were taken when your guy was in the White House, not those eeevul libruls.

More than 46 million Americans. As in citizens, not illegal aliens. Can't make it any clearer. And 8 of 10 of the uninsured in the US are from working families.

Incidentally, there are about 28 million Mexican-Americans, total. About 44 million Americans of Latin descent. Across the entire spectrum of immigrants, from the entire world, there are around 35 million foreign-born Americans. There are presently around 11 million illegal immigrants in the US, of whom 45% are visa-overstayers. Given the numbers that come from Asia and Europe, the most generous possible estimate of border-sneaking Latins in the US is 6 to 7 million.

Which is only an intellectual curiosity on this subject, since they aren't counted in the statistics on uninsured Americans.

 

[Belegon]

I am one of the uninsured. I am extremely healthy and unlikely to add much to anyone's costs...

UNLESS: I get hit by a car. East some bad fish. Discover cancer too late because I didn't get screened. Break a wrist during Taekwondo. Fall down the stairs while I am drunk. Get hit by lightning. Etc.

...and I am working, if not enough and not for enough. As of now, I work for multiple companies in writing and editing and am now adding a part time position at a major electronics retailer.

Personally, I wish we were going to a single payer system. It won't happen, but I wish it would.

The current proposals are all half-assed and only slow the bleeding at best. They don't stop it. Wear a tourniquet too long and what happens to the limb?

We need to look at the opportunity. There are problems in other peoples systems, sure. Problems that those systems have helpfully pointed out for us. If we would quit protecting a corrupt industry and take advantage of the chance, we could do some real good.

The United States spent the last thirty years protecting the Big Three automakers in the name of supporting a crucial industry, the same battle cry being used on behalf of the insurance industry.

How's that working out?

 

[SixtyMinuteMan]

Couldn't agree with you more, Belegon. This is definitely a stopgap.

Unfortunately, the idea of trying to pass any legislation that could legitimately be called socialism is basically a non-starter in this climate. For now, I'm willing to accept any plan that gets people insured. Nice that it'll take the burden off the taxpayers, too.

 

[jacks4u]

More facts, numbers - from the World Health Organization

To keep the data flowing, I'll re-post some from the other thread.

WHO data, only lightly interpreted. The numbers speak for themselves...

As of 2006, of all the countries in the world, only Monaco (over $7000) has spent more per capita on health care than the United States - $6714 for every man, woman, and child within these United States.

155 countries have higher Infant mortality rates than the USA (under 5 years of age, both sexes, 7 per 1000 live births in the USA), but it's more telling to look at which countries have lower rates here, and how much they spent on health care - Canada has an infant mortality rate of 5 per 1000 with just $3672 per capita, and Japan comes in at just 3 per 1000, with just $2514 spent per capita. But between those two countries is New Zealand, United Kingdom, Israel, Netherlands, Germany, Greece, to name a few. And Monaco with it's $7K per capita expense, still has a higher infant mortality rate than Iceland - 2 infant deaths per 1000 live births, with just $3319 spent per person.

Lets look at life expectancy, at birth. again, these are 2006 numbers...

USA comes in at no. 36 with a life expectancy of 78 years. I would assume, that with so many Americans with "Good health insurance" that they would skew the numbers toward the higher side, canceling out, somewhat the illegal immigrant issues that so many have complained about here. Cuba, Costa Rica and Kuwait also have a life expectancy of 78 years - go figure. Japan comes in at No. 1 with a life expectancy of 83 years. Israel, Canada, France, Italy, Spain, Sweden and Iceland all have a life expectancy of 81 years. most other western countries have life expectancies of between 80 and 83 years.

Maternal Mortality Ratio - that's how many women die giving birth. Here, 2005 numbers seem to be all that's available... We're no. 35 here with 11 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births. Lithuania, Bulgaria and Portugal also have a rate of 11 per 100,000. astonishingly, Ireland is no. 1 with just 1 per 100,000. The UK has 8, Canada - 7, Japan - 6, Australia - 4, and surprisingly, Bosnia and Herzegovina has only 3 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births!

Granted, some of these numbers may be due to under reporting, or lack of data, but surely not all!

Personally, I have a hard time basing political decisions solely on what others are saying. I kept asking myself "Why the hurry," and "Why is it so vital that we, as Americans make this change, What's the big deal?" So, I dug for numbers - educated myself. Now, I know the why of it, and so do you.

The question still remains, will this bill, making it's way through congress do everything that's needed? I can't help others here, as that bill's not yet in front of my eyes. I'll have to go find it, and look to see what exactly it contains. perhaps research a few of the major issues better, and decide for myself.

I'd like for it to be a one hit wonder, but with the political climate nowadays, I don't think that'll be the case. We'll be back here again to 'tweak it', that is, if it survives all the baseless rhetoric and intentional misinformation spread for no other reason than to try to gain political power.

Hope you understand these numbers, that the World Health Organization has so graciously supplied to anyone with an interest in them.

Jacks4u

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

SIXTY MINUTE MAN

First, I am no admirer of George W. Bush or his daddy. Dubya was born a perfumed Prince and is clueless of how 99% of America functions. This is about the 6th time I've repeated myself about W. His baby brother, Jeb, was governor here, and I dont like him, either.

2nd. The last official estimate of illegal Mexicans occurred about 2000. The number was about 12 million then. Do the math. Better yet, go to any emergency room or public health clinic and count noses. Its simple to count blacks, whites, chinks, and wetbacks. Go to any public school and count noses.

Obama hisself said Mexicans will be medically treated. You cant avoid it. But theyre employers dont pay for it, they dont pay for it, YOU pay for it.

3rd. The transient-vagabond population of the US is about 6,000,000 single men.

4th. Prisoners are uninsured. Add another 2.5 million to the list.

5th. My county has around a million people. A local sales tax provides indigent medical care for any resident without insurance, medicare, or medicaid. So plenty of folks here dont need insurance. I imagine we're not alone. In fact I did a quick look and discovered that many states and local governments provide indigent healthcare services but these people are counted as uninsured.