Ellipses . . . dashes--what should one do?

[driphoney]

I'm not sure where this should go, but the AH generates the fastest and most traffic and that's working for me right now.

What are your thoughts on the use of dashes and/or ellipses? I believe I've read that if you use one style, you should use it all the way through, if you use another, stick with that.

HOWEVER!

When I read stories, I read an ellipse as a trailing off. Like the mind is wandering, you know . . .

When I read dashes, it reads to me as an abrupt halt--you know? A hard pause, often for an interruption, that sort of thing.

What say you?

 

[TheeGoatPig]

I am addicted to ellipses in forum posts... Seriously addicted...

I hardly use dashes for much of anything. I don't think I have ever used double-dashes.

 

[driphoney]

Okay, love 'em in forum posts, but how about submission copy?

 

[bronzeage]

Okay, love 'em in forum posts, but how about submission copy?

Ellipses are used when part of quoted text has been omitted. They don't actually have a place in most fiction.

Wrong:
"You and what army...."

Maybe not right, but grammatical:
"You and what army?" Jethro's words trailed off as the muzzle of nine millimeter pistol appeared in his peripheral vision.



I just learned that German grammar has punctuation to distinguish spoken word from thought. Maybe they have a way to express what some writers attempt with ellipses.

 

[Weird Harold]

What are your thoughts on the use of dashes and/or ellipses? ...

Start with the definition:

el·lip·sis (-lpss)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz)
1.
a. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
b. An example of such omission.
2. A mark or series of marks ( . . . or * * * , for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words.
[Latin ellpsis, from Greek elleipsis, from elleipein, to fall short; see ellipse.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.​

If nothing was left out, then don't use an ellipsis.

 

[3113]

If nothing was left out, then don't use an ellipsis.

That's all very well and good, Harold, if we're writing an essay and quoting material. But what about in a story? If the character is about to say a full sentence, but then, thanks to some emotion, leaves off and leaves out what they intended to say, does that qualify for ellipses?

 

[TE999]

Ellipses in Forum posts: Definitely.

Ellipses in stories: On occasion and only in dialog to indicate pauses.

Dashes in Forum posts: Seldom.

Dashes in stories: Rarely.

 

[cygnedautrefois]

Exactly.

As for dashes, the initial definition of them here was right. They bring the reader to an abrupt stop, usually introducing something that hasn't been directly in the line of narration or thought. More often than not, I use them in pairs, to signify an interruption. If, however, the interruption ends the sentence, then I can only use one.

I use them sparingly.

That's pretty easy, I think.

The real problem with dashes in that sloppy writers use them everywhere as though they were the punctuational equivalent of some cheap, ten-function pocket tool. These writers use them instead of colons, instead of semi-colons, instead of commas. They do that either because they are lazy or because they never learned how to use the other punctuation marks in the first place.

What good writers realize is that punctuation has its own "vocabulary". Using the wrong mark is as bad as using the wrong word. Writers have to learn so many words, however. The number of punctuation marks and their uses is much more limited. It's worth the time to study them and get them straight. With that will come the confidence to use them with real effect.

 

[driphoney]

So, then a pause, or momentary break in speaking is indicated by a double (or long) dash if specific words are not necessarily left out?

Start with the definition:

el·lip·sis (-lpss)
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz)
1.
a. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
b. An example of such omission.
2. A mark or series of marks ( . . . or * * * , for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words.
[Latin ellpsis, from Greek elleipsis, from elleipein, to fall short; see ellipse.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.​

If nothing was left out, then don't use an ellipsis.

 

[bronzeage]

So, then a pause, or momentary break in speaking is indicated by a double (or long) dash if specific words are not necessarily left out?

It's awkward, but I think that is all English grammar allows.

 

[_Lynn_]

CMS says this:

11.45 Faltering or interrupted speech
Ellipsis points may be used to suggest faltering or fragmented speech accompanied by confusion or insecurity. In the examples below, note the relative positions of the ellipsis points and other punctuation.

"I . . . I . . . that is, we . . . yes, we have made an awful blunder!"

"But . . . but . . . ," said Tom.

Interruptions or abrupt changes in thought are usually indicated by em dashes.


It's not often I use either one in a story. On a forum, I do use the ellipsis.

 

[driphoney]

Fantastic! Thanks! I just wanted that clarified. What the the CMS say about dashes?

CMS says this:

11.45 Faltering or interrupted speech
Ellipsis points may be used to suggest faltering or fragmented speech accompanied by confusion or insecurity. In the examples below, note the relative positions of the ellipsis points and other punctuation.

"I . . . I . . . that is, we . . . yes, we have made an awful blunder!"

"But . . . but . . . ," said Tom.

Interruptions or abrupt changes in thought are usually indicated by em dashes.


It's not often I use either one in a story. On a forum, I do use the ellipsis.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

DH, as you can see, even amongst the laureates here, there is no clear opinion.

My take, and from a copy editor's guide I follow, is this.

Ellipses in quoted/cited text show that a passage has been left out, eg 'the president said he thought . . . all dogs should have a bone'. The guy actually said "I think all women should be dressed in burqas and all dogs should have a bone" but the writer only wants to talk about dogs and cuts the burqa bit.

In fiction, the ellipsis is a tailing off, an unfinished dialogue or action. Old romance writers finished their story with, 'and then the heroine closed the bedroom door . . ."

In dialogue it is used to represent a running out of steam, a coming to a halt. "Bill, I think, I mean I want, I . . . ". If the break is caused by an interruption then a dash is appropriate: "Bill, I think --" "Sue, don't be so stupid."

Increasingly you find dashes being used to replace commas where there is a parenthetical thought -- like this one -- to convey meaning.

In fact, there are three types of dashes, the everyday hyphen, the en dash and the em dash. The en dash (in Word ALT+0150) is slightly longer than the hyphen and is used in classing, like 3-5 years or June-December. Not any use in fiction. The em dash, which doesn't work here but in Word is ALT+0151, is for things like the above example and for the idea of being cut off (Bill, I think--).

Too many of any type will put a reader off but they are useful tools for a writer and certainly dashes still have a fairly open interpretation

 

[sr71plt]

I go with CMS, as MistressLynn cites, which is the authority that nearly all traditional U.S. publishers use.

So.

“That does look nice on you, but—”

“But . . . but it makes me look sluttish, doesn’t it?” Bertha interrupted.

 

[_Lynn_]

Fantastic! Thanks! I just wanted that clarified. What the the CMS say about dashes?

Right now, this is all I turned up in what I have from the CMS. (They had/have a 30-day free trial to the online version, and allow you to copy pages from it during that time. Since I couldn't afford the book itself, and had extra ink, I did the parts that help me.)

The em dash has several uses. It allows, in a manner similar to parentheses, an additional thought to be added within a sentence by sort of breaking away from that sentence—as I’ve done here. Its use or misuse for this purpose is a matter of taste, and subject to the effect on the writer's or reader's "ear". Em dashes also substitute something missing. (there's more as well, but I think this helps.)

 

[_Lynn_]

I go with CMS, as MistressLynn cites, which is the authority that nearly all traditional U.S. publishers use.

So.

“That does look nice on you, but—”

“But . . . but it makes me look sluttish, doesn’t it?” Bertha interrupted.

One thing I never found but have had others ask me is the protocol for using both of them in the same story. Can you help on that one?

 

[Weird Harold]

CMS says this:

11.45 Faltering or interrupted speech
Ellipsis points may be used to suggest faltering or fragmented speech accompanied by confusion or insecurity. In the examples below, note the relative positions of the ellipsis points and other punctuation.

"I . . . I . . . that is, we . . . yes, we have made an awful blunder!"

"But . . . but . . . ," said Tom.

Interruptions or abrupt changes in thought are usually indicated by em dashes.

That is just a logical extension of the definition of Ellipsis.

"I . . . I . . . that is, we . . . yes, we have made an awful blunder!" is three unfinished sentences and one complete sentence. The unfinished portion of the first three sentences may or may not have been formed in the speakers mind and ommitted, or they may simply never have been formed -- but either way, they were "words left out."

 

[sr71plt]

One thing I never found but have had others ask me is the protocol for using both of them in the same story. Can you help on that one?

Isn't that what my example did? The em dash for the interrupted dialogue and then the ellipsis for the faltering speech. (And note that publishing ellipsis has a character space between the dots, in contrast to the ellipsis a computer provides. Also note that there aren't any character spaces at the ends of the em dash, per publisher style.)

But here's an example of different usage at the end of dialogue in the same story. (Maybe this is what you were asking for?)


"Well . . . I just . . . don't . . ." Myrtle wound down, not being able to take her eyes off it, not knowing what to say, both titilated and a little frightened.

"You think it would be painful, that I shouldn't even—?”

"No," Myrtle interrupted, having regained her courage and lost in the possibilities of it, "I say we go for it."


In Myrtle's dialogue, this is faltering/fragmented speech. In her responder's dialogue, it's interrupted speech.

 

[_Lynn_]

Isn't that what my example did? The em dash for the interrupted dialogue and then the ellipsis for the faltering speech. (And note that publishing ellipsis has a character space between the dots, in contrast to the ellipsis a computer provides. Also note that there aren't any character spaces at the ends of the em dash, per publisher style.)

But here's an example of different usage at the end of dialogue in the same story. (Maybe this is what you were asking for?)


"Well . . . I just . . . don't . . ." Myrtle wound down, not being able to take her eyes off it, not knowing what to say, both titilated and a little frightened.

"You think it would be painful, that I shouldn't even—?”

"No," Myrtle interrupted, having regained her courage and lost in the possibilities of it, "I say we go for it."


In Myrtle's dialogue, this is faltering/fragmented speech. In her responder's dialogue, it's interrupted speech.

Yes, your example gave that here.

I have put both in the same piece before. However, I've also been called on it as improper.

 

[sr71plt]

I have put both in the same piece before. However, I've also been called on it as improper.

And so have I. At least one angry diatribe here on Lit. In fact, I get some of this from the reviewers of my e-books. I think many erotica e-book reviewers never got farther than high school English, which is a whole world removed from commercial publishing.

And I still remember a "discussion" right here on the Lit. feedback forum where one of our regular critiquers would not back off from the declaration that everything, including dialogue, had to be grammatically correct and in complete sentences.

 

[_Lynn_]

And so have I. At least one angry diatribe here on Lit. In fact, I get some of this from the reviewers of my e-books. I think many erotica e-book reviewers never got farther than high school English, which is a whole world removed from commercial publishing.

And I still remember a "discussion" right here on the Lit. feedback forum where one of our regular critiquers would not back off from the declaration that everything, including dialogue, had to be grammatically correct and in complete sentences.

I'm one who has a lot to learn yet, even though I've improved a great deal since last year.

 

[driphoney]

Nice to know I was unwittingly right. Or at least in how I choose to interpret it. I think I've gotten a little better in judiciously using them.

The handbook is great, and I did want to hear several takes on it.

 

[michchick98]

The real problem with dashes in that sloppy writers use them everywhere as though they were the punctuational equivalent of some cheap, ten-function pocket tool. These writers use them instead of colons, instead of semi-colons, instead of commas. They do that either because they are lazy or because they never learned how to use the other punctuation marks in the first place.

Kinda harsh to call writers sloppy, don't you think? What about if their publisher had editing guidelines that specifically stated for their authors to use an em dash as opposed to a semi-colon or ellipse? I actually prefer to use the em dash over the ellipse. I see it used frequently and often in books I read.

I have read authors who use ellipses to the point of distraction, but I figure that's his/her choice or something his/her editor/publisher has told them to use in place of something else.

I use the em dash in place of a semi-colon and for truncated dialogue or thoughts:

"I wonder where John is, he was supposed to meet—" Mary's words trailed off when her question was answered. John approached her with a smile.

She looked him all up and down, turning her gaze upward to meet his—he stood nearly a foot taller than she did and she had to stand on her tiptoes to place a kiss on his lips.

What good writers realize is that punctuation has its own "vocabulary". Using the wrong mark is as bad as using the wrong word. Writers have to learn so many words, however. The number of punctuation marks and their uses is much more limited. It's worth the time to study them and get them straight. With that will come the confidence to use them with real effect.

So because I am doing what my publisher tells me to do, you classify me as a sloppy writer? Just about every author I read has his/her own style. Some seem to not use punctuation as it should be used, others seem to overuse it.

Maybe you can contact each of them and call them sloppy, too? After all, you seem to be qualified to determine what classifies a sloppy writer.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Seconded. A publisher I worked for forbids colons and semi's. They want em dashes instead.

It's a shame to see the end of the sexy and erudite semi-colon. I've fallen in love with women because they knew how to use a semi properly.

 

[sr71plt]

I've fallen in love with women because they knew how to use a semi properly.

On a colon? Sorry, that one just seemed like it was begging for it.