"YOU LIE!" The Clear and Present Danger of One Party Rule & A Captive Press…

[amicus]

Y'know, Box, that is a perfect example of the cost/benefit procedure applied to abortion.

Do you think people don't recognize that? Apply your logic above to healthcare and note that medicare doesn't become effective until age 65, with exceptions, and consider, just for the moment, or the sake of conversation, how your logic applies to end of life treatment.

The entire range of government medical care in the hands of government? See the Brit system with a higher breast cancer death rate and prostate cancer death rate as compared to current statistics in the US.

Cost/benefit for a CPA is a good thing, one can dispose of dysfunctional business practices and improve the bottom line.

When applied to human life, through abortion or death panels, it becomes a moral issue.

Much too complex an issue for the 'usual suspects', as they have no, 'bottom line' in terms of human life, coming or going.

Amicus

edited to add: So many calls came in to Congressman Wilson's office crashed the system. The calls, a spokeman said, "Were three to one for his statement. Go figure.

 

[Boota]

It seems pretty simple to me that abortion should be covered as it is a medical prodecure, and it is legal. If it becomes illegal, moot point. As was stated above, change is coming, like it or not. Whatever health care reform we get, it won't be the end. There will be a time of adjustment, tweaking the needs. I don't think any reasonable person expects that the plan that goes into effect will be something we have to live with forever. Of course, there aren't a lot of reasonable people involved in these town halls.

As far as covering illegals, sure it will happen occasionally. But it already does. A doctor can't legally turn away someone in need of emergency medicine, regardless of insurance, or citizenship. Some will sneak through the cracks in getting the insurance to pay for it. Bureaucracies do that all the time. You can't catch everything. Anyone who doesn't think they are already paying for people without insurance is deluded. There is already tons of tax payer money being used to cover the meidcal bills of those without insurance and has been for a long, long time.

 

[amicus]

Boota: "... Of course, there aren't a lot of reasonable people involved in these town halls...."

~~~

I surmise we disagree on just about every issue; still, I appreciate your thoughts, it gives me another insight into the liberal mindset.

I think you ridicule the right spectrum of politics as a means to dismiss opposing thoughts without consideration.

Most Liberals are not comfortable with the abortion issue and are becoming more so as time passes. "It should be a woman's right, but as a last resort", is the evolving position of the left. Thus a majority of the American public finds the concept of abortion as birth control as reprehensible.

Socialized medicine provided by government is an adjacent issue in which the individual is basically sacrificed for the greater good, this time in the waning years of life. Elders become not cost effective and can be dispensed with...

You may have no respect for the politics of the right, but take a look at those attending the 'town hall meetings' and the Tea Parties...they are mostly senior citizens, those elders of our society who are saying, 'no' to your expressed beliefs.

Amicus

 

[DesertPirate]

The Dems are making a stink about Wilson's "you lie" last night. They seem to have forgotten when they were booing Bush during a State of the Union Speech. Don't you just love the double standard?

 

[Darkniciad]

The Dems are making a stink about Wilson's "you lie" last night. They seem to have forgotten when they were booing Bush during a State of the Union Speech. Don't you just love the double standard?

No double standard here. I found that about as intelligent as "that parent" at a little league game that everyone wants to throw things at.

It's sad behavior that's becoming all to prevalent in those marble halls on the hill.

Half of these congress critters need turned over someone's knee, or better yet, let them go select their own switch. Maybe they'll remember some manners and start acting like statesmen instead of children.

 

[Boxlicker101]

No double standard here. I found that about as intelligent as "that parent" at a little league game that everyone wants to throw things at.

It's sad behavior that's becoming all to prevalent in those marble halls on the hill.

Half of these congress critters need turned over someone's knee, or better yet, let them go select their own switch. Maybe they'll remember some manners and start acting like statesmen instead of children.

It is a double standard and it will be until the Dems are castigated as Joe Wilson has been. Boorish behaviour is boorish behavior.

 

[Darkniciad]

It is a double standard and it will be until the Dems are castigated as Joe Wilson has been. Boorish behaviour is boorish behavior.

I'm sure that Fox, Rush, Hannity, and the rest never mentioned a word about that

To continue beating the liberal media horse when Fox gets such a solid market share and left-leaning hosts can't manage more than a tenuous toe-hold on the radio is just silly. The view from the right is well represented, no matter how many other outlets you count as left-leaning.

 

[Liar]

Why would the Democrats compromise and accept any of the nearly 150 Republican Amendments offered on HR3200, when they can bull their way through without a single Republican?

So why haven't they?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
It is a double standard and it will be until the Dems are castigated as Joe Wilson has been. Boorish behaviour is boorish behavior.

I'm sure that Fox, Rush, Hannity, and the rest never mentioned a word about that

To continue beating the liberal media horse when Fox gets such a solid market share and left-leaning hosts can't manage more than a tenuous toe-hold on the radio is just silly. The view from the right is well represented, no matter how many other outlets you count as left-leaning.

Fox was highly critical of Wilson's outburst, as they should have been. It was not right, even though he spoke the truth. They describe themselves as "fair and balanced" which they are, moreso than other networks. Other networks ar highly critical of Wilson, but say nothing of boorish Dem behavior. This is not fair and balanced; the public recognizes this, and it is why they are losing the ratings wars.

 

[Dragonlipz]

Joe Wilson took his best shot; a pretty lame shot considering that he had a copy of the speech prior to the event. Just more lame, sore-loser, racist nonsense from the same folks that brought ya the birther movement, the tea-baggers, the death panel crapola.
He really should have worn his KKK robes and made it official.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

You don't suppose the Dems are pissed at Wilson for interrupting GOD for some other reason do you? It looks to me as if it's as much about illegal alians as health care.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/09/10/AR2009091004276.html

Shout Draws Focus to Illegal-Immigrant Issue
Coverage Question Is Complex, Experts Say, but Less Ominous Than Reform Foes Warn
By Alec MacGillis
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 11, 2009

Republican Rep. Joe Wilson's shout of "You lie!" during President Obama's speech Wednesday night brought renewed attention to swirling questions about whether Democratic health-care legislation would extend coverage to illegal immigrants. Although the answer is more complicated than reform proponents acknowledge, it also does not square with the dark warnings of opponents who say the proposals would bring waves of undocumented immigrants into taxpayer-funded plans.

To counter claims that universal health care would cover illegal immigrants, Democrats and independent arbiters have pointed to language in the House legislation that says the federal subsidies, or "affordability credits," that would be the main avenue to expanding coverage would not be available to illegal immigrants.

This language does not assuage the bill's critics, who say the proposals lack the verification tools needed to assure that illegal immigrants do not gain coverage either through federal credits or expanded Medicaid eligibility for the poorest of the uninsured.

House Republicans have proposed amendments to close potential loopholes, but those measures have so far failed in committee. House Democrats say that the stricter rules could prevent eligible people from getting coverage and that eligibility regulations would be drawn up by federal officials. The bill's opponents say such a process would be inadequate.

"The other side appears to be saying, 'Trust us, [the government] will do the right thing.' Well, the trust issue is the core problem in immigration -- the political class is telling the public, 'We'll do the right thing,' and the public doesn't believe them," said Mark Krikorian, director of the Center for Immigration Studies, which advocates for stricter immigration policy.

But many tax and social policy experts say the concerns over undocumented immigrants taking advantage of health-care reform are overstated, if not unfounded. The thorniest immigration issue, they say, may be sorting out how subsidies or Medicaid eligibility would work in families with both legal and illegal residents.

"Will some illegal immigrant get [help]? Probably. Will it be this big problem? Probably not," said Gerald Prante, an economist with the nonpartisan Tax Foundation.

It is estimated that there are 6 million to 7 million illegal immigrants without health insurance and that several million more have obtained coverage through employers or on their own. Taxpayers already subsidize health care for illegal immigrants -- Medicaid reimburses hospitals for emergency treatments for undocumented immigrants, most notably for childbirth. But studies have found that illegal immigrants spend much less on health care than others in the United States, partly because they are wary of interacting with the medical system and the government -- a fear that experts say would keep many of them from trying to exploit the new system.

The Democratic proposals call for covering most of the uninsured by getting them to buy plans on a new "exchange" where they could choose among private plans -- and possibly a government-run plan -- with the help of subsidies for those with low and modest incomes. Illegal immigrants would neither qualify for subsidies nor be required to buy insurance, as everyone else would be, though they could purchase plans on the exchange.

Tax policy experts say it would be difficult for illegal immigrants to obtain subsidies, because eligibility would be based partly on people's tax returns. It is true, they say, that many illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes using phony Social Security numbers, but they rarely file tax returns, and those who do almost always use "personal identification numbers" from the IRS, which essentially flag them as illegal immigrants. That is why it is very hard for them to obtain the earned-income tax credit.

"It would be exceedingly difficult for undocumenteds to game the system" by using a bogus Social Security number to apply for subsidies, said Alan Berube of the center-left Brookings Institution.

Activists fighting illegal immigration and House Republicans pushing for stricter rules want the legislation to mandate proof of legal status, such as requiring a birth certificate or using the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements, or SAVE, database, which tracks legal immigrants. They say such measures have prevented large numbers of illegal immigrants from enrolling in Medicaid.

Health-care reform proponents disagree, noting that few illegal immigrants enrolled in Medicaid even before proof of citizenship was required and that such requirements have disqualified tens of thousands of eligible citizens because they lack ready birth certificates.

That is why congressional Democrats have since moved to loosen that requirement for Medicaid. Reform proponents say adding back such rules for Medicaid or for the subsidies on the exchange would be costly and would apprehend relatively few illegal immigrants, at the risk of raising hurdles for those who are eligible.

They say that federal regulators may well end up using the SAVE database but that for Congress to impose strict standards now could result in overly blunt measures.

"Everyone agrees that [illegal immigrants] shouldn't be covered, and they're not going to be," said Edwin Park, a health-care expert with the left-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. "There's no clear evidence that the system is so vulnerable, so this would be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist but that causes problems for eligible people."

 

[Huckleman2000]

There seems to be a collective delusion on the right that Obama's so-called radical policies will somehow foment a conservative revolution of some sort. That if they simply yell their slogans and half-truths and distortions and imaginary shit they dream up loud enough, then the multitudes will rise up with the teabaggers and terraform the U.S. back to the 1950s.

It's batshit crazy, of course.

"YOU LIE!" will be a watershed moment; on that, we agree. It's rage and racism couched behind stupidity, and it exposed itself on the biggest political stage in the world.

 

[Belegon]

As I say you're still about politics at any cost. So let's make it political. Make every government worker including the politicians on this plan and Social Security. The Dems have the votes to do it. If it's good enough for the average person, it's good enough for them.

This is actually precisely what I myself would want.

Obama says he doesn't want to put the private health insurance companies out of business. I disagree with him on that.

Short term losses are sometimes necessary for long term gains. I work my muscles hard and they hurt from the workout. But I emerge stronger.

I am in favor of universal health care. I believe that because we have the opportunity to see what has and has not worked in Canada and Europe, we have the opportunity to take the best of those systems.

I do not believe that for-profit HMO's and insurance companies will ever be able to focus purely on care. The fact that they are profit-based will always get in the way. I believe that the health of the nation would be best served by making health care overall a non-profit industry. There is room for profit making entities at the top end, doing things with a more luxurious level of attention for those that can afford such services. I do not believe that a for-profit organization will ever be able or willing to properly focus on appropriate care for those unable to meet the financial costs.

Therefore, if it were up to me, I would put these insurance companies out of business. However, I am also fully aware that no President has the willpower or could carry the votes to accomplish directly a feat that would, in the short term, dramatically hurt parts of the nations economy. Especially in the current economic environment. No President can afford to add the ranks of those employed by the insurance companies and the people they support in advertising and human resources, etc., to the unemployed.

I feel similarly about tax reform. I am personally for a dramatic simplification of our tax structure. However, adding the full measure of those employed by the IRS and H.R. Block, etc, to the unemployed is not going to happen. It would be a dramatic and costly economic blow.

DG, it is the current duplication of services and insistence upon doing things on a for-profit basis that is the problem. IF all people were fully covered by government health care, NO business would have to face costs for insurance or workers comp.

Half-measures only work halfway. And, half-measures are indeed going to increase costs in the short term. However, we must pass some type of reform. You can not steer a parked car. We must begin to move if we wish to change the direction we are headed.

People like Joe Wilson want to leave this vehicle in park, with the brake on. That will accomplish exactly nothing. Which would be fine... if we didn't have people in the back seat that need to get to the hospital.

 

[xssve]

Add to that the increased Iranian disruption of Coalition troop withdrawals from Iraq and Iranian weapons in Afghanistan being used against American Troops.

Amicus

You mean the wars that W. Bush LIED about to get us into?

 

[Huckleman2000]

Fox was highly critical of Wilson's outburst, as they should have been. It was not right, even though he spoke the truth. They describe themselves as "fair and balanced" which they are, moreso than other networks. Other networks ar highly critical of Wilson, but say nothing of boorich Dem behavior. This is not fair and balanced; the public recognizes this, and it is why they are losing the ratings wars.

God damn. This is incredible idiocy, even for Box.

First, no one, no Democrat or Republican, has ever called the POTUS a liar during a joint address. You're drawing a false equivalence with applause and boos - that's not the same as interrupting a speech by shouting back at the speaker. If you can produce instances where Democrats heckled a sitting President, do so. If not, then don't dismiss this outburst as 'more of the same old politics'. It's not. It's unprecedented, although probably predictable behavior for Wilson, a "Son of the Confederacy".

Second, Wilson was WRONG. There's no attempt being made to expand government payments for healthcare to undocumented immigrants. Of course people who are in the country illegally can get healthcare if they go to an emergency room - hospitals cannot legally deny emergency care. That much won't change, regardless of what happens with healthcare reform. Using that fact to damn a healthcare reform bill that specifically excludes illegals is deliberately misleading.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

The Democrats defeated 2 amendments that required proof of citizenship to sign-up for the public healthcare plan. They also defeated an amendment requiring the IRS to verify all applications for the public healthcare plan.

In effect the Mexicans have loopholes in the bill to allow them to participate.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

BELEGON assumes that bureaucrats and politicians will manage healthcare better than the private sector, and better than they manage the rest of the government. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security et al are broke because the government manages them.

 

[York]

Politician in lying scandal shocker.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Joe Wilson took his best shot; a pretty lame shot considering that he had a copy of the speech prior to the event. Just more lame, sore-loser, racist nonsense from the same folks that brought ya the birther movement, the tea-baggers, the death panel crapola.
He really should have worn his KKK robes and made it official.

Except for the fact that you love playing the race card at every opportunity, why would you say this is racist? I'm not defending Wilson; he should not have insulted thje president, but his comments were regarding what was said, not the race of the speaker.

I agree with him also, at least regarding the untruth of the statement. It will not be possible to prevent illegal aliens from signing up for Medicaid or whatever else it will be called. Anybody who says it is, is hopelessly naive, because counterfeit green cards are easily, although illegally obtainable, as are phony birth certificates and similar documents.

I don't know if Wilson has KKK robes or not. If he does, he would have had to pay a fee to the Dems to buy them, because the Dems were the people who invented them.

 

[Belegon]

I agree with him also, at least regarding the untruth of the statement. It will not be possible to prevent illegal aliens from signing up for Medicaid or whatever else it will be called. Anybody who says it is, is hopelessly naive, because counterfeit green cards are easily, although illegally obtainable, as are phony birth certificates and similar documents.

Damn it box, that is just stupid talk.

Because someone can commit fraud and accomplish something is not equivalent to giving them the ability to accomplish it without doing so.

That is like saying that laws which make theft illegal don't have any relevance because people steal anyway.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Except for the fact that you love playing the race card at every opportunity, why would you say this is racist? I'm not defending Wilson; he should not have insulted thje president, but his comments were regarding what was said, not the race of the speaker.

I agree with him also, at least regarding the untruth of the statement. It will not be possible to prevent illegal aliens from signing up for Medicaid or whatever else it will be called. Anybody who says it is, is hopelessly naive, because counterfeit green cards are easily, although illegally obtainable, as are phony birth certificates and similar documents.

I don't know if Wilson has KKK robes or not. If he does, he would have had to pay a fee to the Dems to buy them, because the Dems were the people who invented them.

Box, I DARE you to go a week without equivocating or using the word but! Jesus, dude!

 

[Huckleman2000]

Except for the fact that you love playing the race card at every opportunity, why would you say this is racist? I'm not defending Wilson; he should not have insulted thje president, but his comments were regarding what was said, not the race of the speaker.

Wilson has a past where he has shown racist attitudes. Why did he "let [his] emotions get the best of [him]" in this one instance? Why did this ex-Military self-described "patriot" choose the first black Commander-in-Chief to disrespect on a world stage? Why did he decide this President didn't deserve the respect for the Office that others have received?

I agree with him also, at least regarding the untruth of the statement. It will not be possible to prevent illegal aliens from signing up for Medicaid or whatever else it will be called. Anybody who says it is, is hopelessly naive, because counterfeit green cards are easily, although illegally obtainable, as are phony birth certificates and similar documents.

Oh come on! You think Wilson was screaming about a technicality? You really think he was screaming that, "You're not telling a certifiable truth because even if you outlaw illegals, some of them will break the law and get benefits, just like they do now!" Even if that's what he meant, why would that be a reason to oppose health reform? That's just saying that Congress shouldn't pass any laws, because people just break them anyway. You think that's the point he was trying to make, in front of the whole world?

And what does forging birth certificates have to do with anything?

I don't know if Wilson has KKK robes or not. If he does, he would have had to pay a fee to the Dems to buy them, because the Dems were the people who invented them.

Oh Yeah. The Democratic Party collects royalties on KKK robes. You got us there, Box. We all forgot about that.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Except for the fact that you love playing the race card at every opportunity, why would you say this is racist? I'm not defending Wilson; he should not have insulted thje president, but his comments were regarding what was said, not the race of the speaker.

Wilson has a past where he has shown racist attitudes. Why did he "let [his] emotions get the best of [him]" in this one instance? Why did this ex-Military self-described "patriot" choose the first black Commander-in-Chief to disrespect on a world stage? Why did he decide this President didn't deserve the respect for the Office that others have received?

Do you actually know that much about him? I don't. I never heard of him before. According to Wiki, he was elected to the House in 2001 from a district that includes the state capital of Columbia. That means he has been in Congress during only two presidents. How can you say for sure that he never disrespected W? For that matter, how much dissing did W get from those on this forum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
I agree with him also, at least regarding the untruth of the statement. It will not be possible to prevent illegal aliens from signing up for Medicaid or whatever else it will be called. Anybody who says it is, is hopelessly naive, because counterfeit green cards are easily, although illegally obtainable, as are phony birth certificates and similar documents.

Oh come on! You think Wilson was screaming about a technicality? You really think he was screaming that, "You're not telling a certifiable truth because even if you outlaw illegals, some of them will break the law and get benefits, just like they do now!" Even if that's what he meant, why would that be a reason to oppose health reform? That's just saying that Congress shouldn't pass any laws, because people just break them anyway. You think that's the point he was trying to make, in front of the whole world?

Of course not. He was just saying that the speaker was uttering an untruth on live TV. Obama has to be aware of the multitude of phony green cards and other bogus documents available to illegals. Yet he makes the statement that no illegal alien will be able to obtain any aid, as if there are no bogus documents. If you say something that you know to be untrue, and are not just jesting or reciting a story for the sake of entertaining, you are a liar.

And what does forging birth certificates have to do with anything?

A birth certificate is frequently used as a form of identification to prove US citizenship. If you have ever applied for a passport, you were asked for one. Why do you think some people are demanding Obama show his birth certificate, if not to show US natural-born citizenship? By the way, I am NOT one of those people.

Oh Yeah. The Democratic Party collects royalties on KKK robes. You got us there, Box. We all forgot about that.

Okay, I'm being sarcastic here. Even so, it is common knowledge that the original KKK members were mostly, if not entirely, Dems. David Duke was a registered Dem until he changed his registration in, I believe, 1978.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Box, I DARE you to go a week without equivocating or using the word but! Jesus, dude!

I wouldn't be able to, nor wlould I even try. I often express opinions or predictions or say other things on this forum; HOWEVER, I am frequently aware of exceptions so I mention them. I try to be, as the term goes, Fair and Balanced.

 

[Pure]

jamesbBELEGON assumes that bureaucrats and politicians will manage healthcare better than the private sector, and better than they manage the rest of the government. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security et al are broke because the government manages them.
====

it's hard to disentangle all the non sequiturs and fallacies in these sentences. you purport to show that private sector healthcare is better run, presumably more efficient and economical than govt.

you adduce no evidence. the phoney comparison is that --how truly amazing-- kaiser can make a profit, while medicare, which MUST cover everyone over 65 does not!

well, duh! kaiser get to refuse clients, exclude pre existing probs, and cut off whom they choose.

==
and james, medicare is here, like it or not; proposed by truman and endorsed by both parties thereafter. you, like ami, are *already* under the knout of your socialist masters.