Amused by Poe

[sr71plt]

I am engaged in reviewing the stories of Edgar Allan Poe in preparation for writing for a mainstream contest to celebrate his 200th birthday. I've read maybe seven stories so far this evening. All masterful and powerful. None seeming to be outdated. All very sensual and all in the first person. And I have encountered no more then three lines of dialogue throughout. How interesting/refreshing. I suppose they would be torn apart on Lit. as not following the "everybody does."

 

[slyc_willie]

I am engaged in reviewing the stories of Edgar Allan Poe in preparation for writing for a mainstream contest to celebrate his 200th birthday. I've read maybe seven stories so far this evening. All masterful and powerful. None seeming to be outdated. All very sensual and all in the first person. And I have encountered no more then three lines of dialogue throughout. How interesting/refreshing. I suppose they would be torn apart on Lit. as not following the "everybody does."

In Poe's time, the standards for writing were much more flexible than they are now. We've taken the Henry Ford approach to writing now, which is for the most part sad.

On a related note, I picked up a copy of Cormac Mcarthy's "The Road." Not a single quotation mark in it, but it's not hard at all to tell who is talking.

 

[Lady Reiha]

I am engaged in reviewing the stories of Edgar Allan Poe in preparation for writing for a mainstream contest to celebrate his 200th birthday. I've read maybe seven stories so far this evening. All masterful and powerful. None seeming to be outdated. All very sensual and all in the first person. And I have encountered no more then three lines of dialogue throughout. How interesting/refreshing. I suppose they would be torn apart on Lit. as not following the "everybody does."

Strangely enough, me and my room mates were talking about "The Raven" this evening. I sincerely hope your evening is going well, and best birthday wishes to the wonderful Edgar Allan Poe!

I hope it's alright to share "The Raven"with you, as it is my favorite piece by the man in honor:

The Raven​

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary,
Over many a quaint and curious volume of forgotten lore,
While I nodded, nearly napping, suddenly there came a tapping,
As of some one gently rapping, rapping at my chamber door.
`'Tis some visitor,' I muttered, `tapping at my chamber door -
Only this, and nothing more.'

Ah, distinctly I remember it was in the bleak December,
And each separate dying ember wrought its ghost upon the floor.
Eagerly I wished the morrow; - vainly I had sought to borrow
From my books surcease of sorrow - sorrow for the lost Lenore -
For the rare and radiant maiden whom the angels named Lenore -
Nameless here for evermore.

And the silken sad uncertain rustling of each purple curtain
Thrilled me - filled me with fantastic terrors never felt before;
So that now, to still the beating of my heart, I stood repeating
`'Tis some visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door -
Some late visitor entreating entrance at my chamber door; -
This it is, and nothing more,'

Presently my soul grew stronger; hesitating then no longer,
`Sir,' said I, `or Madam, truly your forgiveness I implore;
But the fact is I was napping, and so gently you came rapping,
And so faintly you came tapping, tapping at my chamber door,
That I scarce was sure I heard you' - here I opened wide the door; -
Darkness there, and nothing more.

Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there wondering, fearing,
Doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before
But the silence was unbroken, and the darkness gave no token,
And the only word there spoken was the whispered word, `Lenore!'
This I whispered, and an echo murmured back the word, `Lenore!'
Merely this and nothing more.

Back into the chamber turning, all my soul within me burning,
Soon again I heard a tapping somewhat louder than before.
`Surely,' said I, `surely that is something at my window lattice;
Let me see then, what thereat is, and this mystery explore -
Let my heart be still a moment and this mystery explore; -
'Tis the wind and nothing more!'

Open here I flung the shutter, when, with many a flirt and flutter,
In there stepped a stately raven of the saintly days of yore.
Not the least obeisance made he; not a minute stopped or stayed he;
But, with mien of lord or lady, perched above my chamber door -
Perched upon a bust of Pallas just above my chamber door -
Perched, and sat, and nothing more.

Then this ebony bird beguiling my sad fancy into smiling,
By the grave and stern decorum of the countenance it wore,
`Though thy crest be shorn and shaven, thou,' I said, `art sure no craven.
Ghastly grim and ancient raven wandering from the nightly shore -
Tell me what thy lordly name is on the Night's Plutonian shore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

Much I marvelled this ungainly fowl to hear discourse so plainly,
Though its answer little meaning - little relevancy bore;
For we cannot help agreeing that no living human being
Ever yet was blessed with seeing bird above his chamber door -
Bird or beast above the sculptured bust above his chamber door,
With such name as `Nevermore.'

But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only,
That one word, as if his soul in that one word he did outpour.
Nothing further then he uttered - not a feather then he fluttered -
Till I scarcely more than muttered `Other friends have flown before -
On the morrow he will leave me, as my hopes have flown before.'
Then the bird said, `Nevermore.'

Startled at the stillness broken by reply so aptly spoken,
`Doubtless,' said I, `what it utters is its only stock and store,
Caught from some unhappy master whom unmerciful disaster
Followed fast and followed faster till his songs one burden bore -
Till the dirges of his hope that melancholy burden bore
Of "Never-nevermore."'

But the raven still beguiling all my sad soul into smiling,
Straight I wheeled a cushioned seat in front of bird and bust and door;
Then, upon the velvet sinking, I betook myself to linking
Fancy unto fancy, thinking what this ominous bird of yore -
What this grim, ungainly, ghastly, gaunt, and ominous bird of yore
Meant in croaking `Nevermore.'

This I sat engaged in guessing, but no syllable expressing
To the fowl whose fiery eyes now burned into my bosom's core;
This and more I sat divining, with my head at ease reclining
On the cushion's velvet lining that the lamp-light gloated o'er,
But whose velvet violet lining with the lamp-light gloating o'er,
She shall press, ah, nevermore!

Then, methought, the air grew denser, perfumed from an unseen censer
Swung by Seraphim whose foot-falls tinkled on the tufted floor.
`Wretch,' I cried, `thy God hath lent thee - by these angels he has sent thee
Respite - respite and nepenthe from thy memories of Lenore!
Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe, and forget this lost Lenore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

`Prophet!' said I, `thing of evil! - prophet still, if bird or devil! -
Whether tempter sent, or whether tempest tossed thee here ashore,
Desolate yet all undaunted, on this desert land enchanted -
On this home by horror haunted - tell me truly, I implore -
Is there - is there balm in Gilead? - tell me - tell me, I implore!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

`Prophet!' said I, `thing of evil! - prophet still, if bird or devil!
By that Heaven that bends above us - by that God we both adore -
Tell this soul with sorrow laden if, within the distant Aidenn,
It shall clasp a sainted maiden whom the angels named Lenore -
Clasp a rare and radiant maiden, whom the angels named Lenore?'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

`Be that word our sign of parting, bird or fiend!' I shrieked upstarting -
`Get thee back into the tempest and the Night's Plutonian shore!
Leave no black plume as a token of that lie thy soul hath spoken!
Leave my loneliness unbroken! - quit the bust above my door!
Take thy beak from out my heart, and take thy form from off my door!'
Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

And the raven, never flitting, still is sitting, still is sitting
On the pallid bust of Pallas just above my chamber door;
And his eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow on the floor;
And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor
Shall be lifted - nevermore!

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[Elianna]

I love Poe.

Amazing how many of the classics break the "rules," isn't it?

 

[AndyGoat]

It's been so long since Poe, and even in his time there were plenty who despised him (A Cask of Amontillado was written as a literary revenge on a rival) but he has held up over the years so much better than those others because he broke the forms and wrote his heart. The best always do.

 

[Pure]

i'm particularly fond of "the black cat"; wonderful subtle development. profound metaphor.

 

[sr71plt]

In Poe's time, the standards for writing were much more flexible than they are now. We've taken the Henry Ford approach to writing now, which is for the most part sad.

On a related note, I picked up a copy of Cormac Mcarthy's "The Road." Not a single quotation mark in it, but it's not hard at all to tell who is talking.

But as I noted, nothing outdated about Poe's stories that I could find. I look at the historical ones I have posted to Lit., and Poe's work doesn't seem at all dated against them.

(Of course my historical style might already just be an unconscious mimic of Poe--he studied here at UVa, so when I was taking English and creative writing here, we were steeped in him.)

 

[slyc_willie]

But as I noted, nothing outdated about Poe's stories that I could find. I look at the historical ones I have posted to Lit., and Poe's work doesn't seem at all dated against them.

(Of course my historical style might already just be an unconscious mimic of Poe--he studied here at UVa, so when I was taking English and creative writing here, we were steeped in him.)

(Could be)

Poe also dealt with very basic situations that were universal. Despair, woe, anger, lust. Many of his metaphors also carry through to our time. It is still very feasible that a raven could land on someone's windowsill know.

Poe had a gift for creating complicated situations out of basic fears and concepts.

 

[sr71plt]

Poe had a gift for creating complicated situations out of basic fears and concepts.

Good to hear that--falls right in with the two stories I've written so far for the competition.

 

[Verdad]

I am engaged in reviewing the stories of Edgar Allan Poe in preparation for writing for a mainstream contest to celebrate his 200th birthday. I've read maybe seven stories so far this evening. All masterful and powerful. None seeming to be outdated. All very sensual and all in the first person. And I have encountered no more then three lines of dialogue throughout. How interesting/refreshing. I suppose they would be torn apart on Lit. as not following the "everybody does."

At one time or another, I've read pieces of online advice that would disqualify the entire literary canon. I've also seen people who just won't understand something of theirs doesn't work, though (when something similar clearly worked for say, Poe), so I guess it's kind of a tie.

The most incomprehensible of these advices is that writing in first person is somehow undesirable, though. I've never understood where that pearl originated.

As for Poe, haven't read him in ages, but yes, loved him. More recently, I've read a few stories of a German author E. T. A. Hoffman, who worked at a similar time in a similar venue. Here's a famous one for a taste. http://www.fln.vcu.edu/hoffmann/sand_e.html

 

[trysail]

Edgar Allan Poe, III resides locally.

http://www.eapoe.org/

http://www.poebicentennial.com/

http://baltimore.org/arts-and-culture/edgar-allan-poe/

http://knowingpoe.thinkport.org/default_flash.asp

http://www.poestories.com/view.php?photo=437996100dcb9

I fondly recall my youthful introduction to Poe through The Murders in The Rue Morgue, The Pit and The Pendulum, and The Cask of Amontillado. The "Pit" and the "Cask," in particular, are the stuff of nightmares. Vincent Price's reading of The Raven is timeless.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Poe%27s_grave_Baltimore_MD.jpg

 

[xssve]

The most incomprehensible of these advices is that writing in first person is somehow undesirable, though. I've never understood where that pearl originated.

There is a lot of very turgid prose written in First person, I don't necessarily think one needs to avoid it, there is some interesting stuff written in first person, The Telltale Heart for instance, but the "voice" of the narrator is technically a character, and if the the least interesting character in the piece happens to be the narrator, it's going to be an uphill battle to keep the reader moving along.

I think playing with other narrative voices expands your horizons a bit, get's you thinking more about characterization and development - i.e., getting into the heads of different characters.

In first person, one big mistake I see is simply a lack of development in the other characters, where they become merely props; we rely on the narrators descriptions and perceptions in order to flesh out these characters - if the narrator is all me, me, me, the narrative is going to suffer.

Again, in The Telltale Heart, this rule doesn't appear to apply, the narrator doesn't spend much time fleshing out the other characters, the old man is described superficially in terms of the feelings of revulsion he inspires in the narrator etc.; it's all about the narrators madness, which is what makes it interesting, i.e., the narrator is an interesting enough character to carry the narrative.

I think people sometimes get confused, trying to present a First person narration in an objective third person voice, and the two don't really mix unless you spend a lot of effort developing the other characters.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

xssve makes a valid point, sr. There is nothing wrong in using first person if you are in command of your art and know what you are trying to achieve. Often, as we are trying to scale the cliffs of fictional writing, we struggle to separate fact from fiction, description from action and tension from coincidence.

Poe was a great writer, The Raven is one of my favorites, but this is not a style that should be espoused by even the most talented writers on this site. Quite simply, we are airplane fodder, a quick read and then binned.

You frequently pour scorn on me for telling wannabee writers to stick to third person, past tense and seriously tell a fictional story without too much description or backstory. Thje readership here is looking for a paperback read, taut, simple and page-turning. Your pretensiousness is not appropriate here.

 

[freshface]

xssve makes a valid point, sr. There is nothing wrong in using first person if you are in command of your art and know what you are trying to achieve. Often, as we are trying to scale the cliffs of fictional writing, we struggle to separate fact from fiction, description from action and tension from coincidence.

Poe was a great writer, The Raven is one of my favorites, but this is not a style that should be espoused by even the most talented writers on this site. Quite simply, we are airplane fodder, a quick read and then binned.

You frequently pour scorn on me for telling wannabee writers to stick to third person, past tense and seriously tell a fictional story without too much description or backstory. Thje readership here is looking for a paperback read, taut, simple and page-turning. Your pretensiousness is not appropriate here.

Don't you think you're pretty pretentious when you make pronouncements about what all of the readership here wants? You don't think it's possible that some writers here have managed to attract fans who want more than a "paperback read?" Bad writing is bad writing, no matter what tense you use. Wannabee writers learn how to write by trying stuff and seeing how it works. Lucky wannabee writers have more experienced writers providing suggestions about what isn't working and why. To tell every new writer that he shouldn't write in first person because some new writers don't do it well is to give a disservice to all new writers.

 

[TE999]

I have always enjoyed reading Poe. His' horror' stories convey more unnerving menace than a bucketful of slasher films. Who can read the line "For the love of God, Montresor"without a chill going down your spine.

Poe is also considered one of the originators of detective fiction ('Murders in the Rue Morgue') and science fiction ('The Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym of Nantucket'). Truly an amazing author.

 

[sr71plt]

xssve makes a valid point, sr. There is nothing wrong in using first person if you are in command of your art and know what you are trying to achieve. Often, as we are trying to scale the cliffs of fictional writing, we struggle to separate fact from fiction, description from action and tension from coincidence.

It's no less valid to say this about second and third person.

 

[sr71plt]

There is a lot of very turgid prose written in First person

This is no less valid when speaking of the second and third person.

 

[sr71plt]

Don't you think you're pretty pretentious when you make pronouncements about what all of the readership here wants?

Yep, she is. But she just keeps on doing it.

That's my primary kick with her guidance--that and that she's sometimes flat wrong, in terms of publishing industry standards, on style, grammar, and punctuation pronouncements.

Her hearts in the right place, though.

 

[xssve]

This is no less valid when speaking of the second and third person.

Absolutely true, however, the average person falls into first person uh, naturally, as it were, we all essentially begin with a first person POV - if you read anything written by adolescents, you find this to be practically a rule, they tend to write everything in the first person, fiction or otherwise.

Ultimately, the real point here is about character development, not voice per se, which almost invariably means you have to get into more than one head, consider alternative viewpoints, which is only going to improve your character development, whatever narrative mode you choose, I think maybe it's just that it's easier to avoid thinking about character development if you stay in First person, whereas the other modes tend to force you think in terms of character development.

I think perhaps another criticism of First person, is that it get's harder to maintain in longer pieces simply for practical reasons.

Few novels manage to maintain First person narrative throughout - Kafka is the only writer I can think of right off the bat that appears to have managed to pull it off on a regular basis, but it isn't necessarily uncommon - Moby Dick is, if I recall, written in First person, and there's no shortage of individual examples, classic or modern.

Thus, by the same token, you could say that to write a really interesting story in First person, you really have to have character development down to an art, as you are essentially speaking from inside the character.

 

[Verdad]

Absolutely true, however, the average person falls into first person uh, naturally, as it were, we all essentially begin with a first person POV - if you read anything written by adolescents, you find this to be practically a rule, they tend to write everything in the first person, fiction or otherwise.

Ultimately, the real point here is about character development, not voice per se, which almost invariably means you have to get into more than one head, consider alternative viewpoints, which is only going to improve your character development, whatever narrative mode you choose, I think maybe it's just that it's easier to avoid thinking about character development if you stay in First person, whereas the other modes tend to force you think in terms of character development.

I think perhaps another criticism of First person, is that it get's harder to maintain in longer pieces simply for practical reasons.

Few novels manage to maintain First person narrative throughout - Kafka is the only writer I can think of right off the bat that appears to have managed to pull it off on a regular basis, but it isn't necessarily uncommon - Moby Dick is, if I recall, written in First person, and there's no shortage of individual examples, classic or modern.

Thus, by the same token, you could say that to write a really interesting story in First person, you really have to have character development down to an art, as you are essentially speaking from inside the character.

Here you're making good points. Truly, first person narration is completely unremarkable. There's no shortage of it either among the classics or in a random selection of contemporary fiction. Whenever someone espouses the anti-first-person mythology, or treats first person like some kind of experimental form not for the faint of heart, it just makes me wonder what they'd been reading.

Whether it's harder for a novice to do, well, you might have a point there, but even so, I'd be careful of making it some kind of unspoken rule. It depends on the writer and on the story. The awful first person stories online prove, at most, that awful first time writers often choose first person. It comes, as you say, naturally. That doesn't mean those same writers would do better in third person, though, or that choosing first person dooms someone who's otherwise talented.

 

[sr71plt]

Perhaps those here trying to guide new writers of erotica to specific voices that should be written with erotica could demonstrate this by pointing to their own stories as posted on Lit. and specifically evidencing what seems to have been received better than something else.

It never ceases to amuse me that the pundits on this forum on what "everyone" wants in erotica don't actually regularly post stories here, if at all. One wonders what they are basing the sweeping generalizations on what works with any reader but themselves.

My view is that you can screw up first and third person equally without a deft touch without making either more difficult than the other. (I think second person can much more easily be screwed up and is harder for anyone to sustain successfully--although I think it's fine and interesting for very short pieces). I further believe that first person is both natural and proportionately of greater usability for erotic because it's the most intimate and personalizes sensations--permitting the reader to identify with first-person stories more easily than with third person.

I have never received a comment (one way or the other) directly on the voice I used on the 360 stories I have posted at Lit. (although, of course, now I will). I have, however, received compliments on how I've brought the reader directly into the scene--which happened (guess what), by use of the first person.

I think both third person and first person have their problems to be wary of.

In my writing, I don't avoid either--there just seems to be a natural voice to be writing that specific story in. When I write erotica, it's most often first person--for the reasons I've already cited--intimacy, direct sensory attachment, and ease in establishing personal identification. Most of my mainstream writing is in third person--when first person has been used, it invariably has been for shorter pieces, with third person predominating in longer pieces.

The proportion of dialogue to narration has also depended on the needs of the specific story.

 

[Verdad]

Perhaps those here trying to guide new writers of erotica to specific voices that should be written with erotica could demonstrate this by pointing to their own stories as posted on Lit. and specifically evidencing what seems to have been received better than something else.

It never ceases to amuse me that the pundits on this forum on what "everyone" wants in erotica don't actually regularly post stories here, if at all. One wonders what they are basing the sweeping generalizations on what works with any reader but themselves.

My view is that you can screw up first and third person equally without a deft touch without making either more difficult than the other. (I think second person can much more easily be screwed up and is harder for anyone to sustain successfully--although I think it's fine and interesting for very short pieces). I further believe that first person is both natural and proportionately of greater usability for erotic because it's the most intimate and personalizes sensations--permitting the reader to identify with first-person stories more easily than with third person.

I have never received a comment (one way or the other) directly on the voice I used on the 360 stories I have posted at Lit. (although, of course, now I will). I have, however, received compliments on how I've brought the reader directly into the scene--which happened (guess what), by use of the first person.

I think both third person and first person have their problems to be wary of.

In my writing, I don't avoid either--there just seems to be a natural voice to be writing that specific story in. When I write erotica, it's most often first person--for the reasons I've already cited--intimacy, direct sensory attachment, and ease in establishing personal identification. Most of my mainstream writing is in third person--when first person has been used, it invariably has been for shorter pieces, with third person predominating in longer pieces.

The proportion of dialogue to narration has also depended on the needs of the specific story.

You do understand I fully agree with you, right? You need to save the discrediting attempts for when we disagree.

 

[sr71plt]

You do understand I fully agree with you, right? You need to save the discrediting attempts for when we disagree.

I wasn't posting to you, Verdad. I was posting primarily to xssve and Elfin here (and to a few more who will, no doubt, be along shortly to tell us what "all" Lit. readers want).

 

[Verdad]

I wasn't posting to you, Verdad. I was posting primarily to xssve and Elfin here (and to a few more who will, no doubt, be along shortly to tell us what "all" Lit. readers want).

Just teasing you. Am in a silly mood.

 

[Pure]

a recommendation

i read 'the facts in the case of M Valdemar' decades ago, and it's still with me.

http://poestories.com/text.php?file=facts


a horror masterpiece.