Tell Me About Harvard

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Thank you for clarifying all that, Lady

For most people, things like saying "Hello" back to someone, or "Nice to meet you", or things along those lines are common sense. We all know that's what you're expected to do. Some of us don't do it, because some of us don't have good manners, but we do know it's what's expected.

For my daughter, those things are not common sense. For her, the entire social world is a foreign culture. If most people moved to a country with customs completely different from our own, it would take time to learn them, and we might forget sometimes, especially if we're feeling especially anxious about trying to remember them or about the situation in which we need to use them. Some of us might first want to understand *why* those are the customs before we were willing to learn them. For my daughter, every day is like that.

Yes and no.

When I was 3 I peed on an electric fence. I never did it again, nor did I require any online coursework, seminars, or hypnosis to extinguish the behavior. I attended no 12 step programs and I never relapsed. It was a classic one-trial learning experience.

But most learning comes about by endless repetition and example.

 

[WRJames]

One of my wife's cousins has Aspergers -- it wasn't until fairly late in life that he realized what was going on. It was always obvious that he was a little odd -- but of course aren't we all, in one way or another. The good news is that he has managed to live a more or less normal, satisfying life -- job, marriage, a church community. He's been lucky enough to find people who are willing and able to relate to him.

 

[trysail]

This says more about the parents than it does about the kids. It is irrational and these schools are simply not worth it.






Princeton, Harvard Raise Prices as Economy Burns
By Joe Mysak

Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Life on top means not having to lower your prices.

The CHART OF THE DAY shows how the cost of a year as an undergraduate at Harvard and Princeton has risen through boom and bust. Tuition and fees at Harvard jumped 67.8 percent over the decade; at Princeton, they increased 43.4 percent.

That hasn’t dented demand. Freshman applications at Harvard in Cambridge, Massachusetts, rose by 60.9 percent over the last 10 years. At Princeton in New Jersey, which started accepting the Common Application standardized form for admission in 2005 (Harvard did so in 1994), demand rose by 47.7 percent.

The two Ivy League schools haven’t been entirely immune from the recession. Harvard this year reported that its endowment fell an estimated 30 percent; Princeton’s, 25 percent.

“They say trees can’t grow to the sky, but apparently there’s no stopping college tuitions,” said Jay Diamond, a managing director at Annaly Capital Management, a New York real estate investment trust with total assets of $86 billion, and member of Princeton class of 1986. “It would appear that an undergraduate degree at a place like Princeton is actually a Giffen good. As a prospective college tuition-paying parent -- my kids are in 10th and eighth grades and kindergarten -- I wish that colleges competed on price, but that is certainly wishful thinking.”

A Giffen good, first observed by British economist Robert Giffen (1837-1910), is something for which demand rises even as its price goes up.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aLefhqRHra1s

 

[CharleyH]

Today, my 16 yo daughter got a hefty envelope from Havard containing an unsolicited applicaton and a letter stating that they are waiving her application fee and encouraging us poor people to consider them. I'm not saying this is some incredible honor. I would bet that at least the other top 49,999 high school juniors got the same.

My issue is that my daughter has her heart set on going to some college in Indianapolis just because one of her friends is going there. My daughter has Asperger's disorder and is a bit apprehensive of unfamiliar people. All I'm asking is that she apply and think about it. Knowing my daughter, she would make a few, select friends no matter where she goes.

So, this is where you come in. I don't know anything about Harvard. I went to the first college that offered me a full scholarship. Yeah, I can and will read the website, but I'd also like to hear any personal experiences or first-hand knowledge. My daughter has gotten recruiting material from many of the nation's top schools (as I am sure a large percent of high school juniors do), but this is the first that promoted the affordability of actually attending.

So, what do you know about Harvard?

btw: my daughter's field of interest is medical science/ pathology/ cytolology

At 16, I think your daughter has two years to decide where she wants to study. I think you have two years to persuade her that Harvard is a fantabulous school and experience. I also think that 'she' should decide where she wants to go to college/uni. It is her life and not your fantasy.

 

[john-the-author]

A dear friend of mine is a Harvard Med School graduate. It opens doors for her.

I have been to Indianapolis. I have also been to Cambridge, MA, and the Harvard campus. Your daughter reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally doesn't want to be in Indianapolis.

Harvard has any number of advantages with name recognition and the quality of options available. There are also much better restaurants and entertainments available in the Cambridge area than there are in Indianapolis. Cambridge is surrounded by Boston. Indianapolis is surrounded by soy beans and a lot of the 19th century.

Have her go to Harvard.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

If you want to be educated, go the Princeton.
If you want to network with the power structure, go to Harvard.
If you want to be a crooked politician, go to Yale.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

One of my wife's cousins has Aspergers -- it wasn't until fairly late in life that he realized what was going on. It was always obvious that he was a little odd -- but of course aren't we all, in one way or another. The good news is that he has managed to live a more or less normal, satisfying life -- job, marriage, a church community. He's been lucky enough to find people who are willing and able to relate to him.

That's me, right there, though I wasn't aware of being related to your wife. Asperger's comes in an entire spectrum of severity. I'm lucky in that mine is only bad enough to get me considered 'odd' and, to enough people, loveably odd. Just like sexual orientation, the old concept of 'if A then not B' is bullshit when applied to autism, Asperger's and probably everything else.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

This says more about the parents than it does about the kids. It is irrational and these schools are simply not worth it.






Rubbish, Trysail, that's just a personal, biaised and totally unsupported view. I guess it works for the other Ivy League schools too, but Harvard has a fantastic financial aid program that means that no-one with family income (not assets) less than $165k pays full fees.

It was me , not parents, that pushed the Harvard option. They were scared I'd be out of my depth - academically and socially. After SATS, entrance essays and complete panic, it worked fantastically - with full financial support.

The pastoral care, the range of courses offered by world experts is second-to-none. Whether you want to be a priest, bureaucrat, ibanker or consultant, the support system is superb. Sure, you can legitimately claim that the networking helps a lot, but for a kid outside the 'chosen ones' I learnt oodles, and sure, the contacts and experience helped.

President Drew Faust is way more liberal than Obama but is determined to ride a path between capitalism and social sciences.

From my time in Old Yard, I would reccomend it to anyone.

 

[Handprints]

If you want to be educated, go the Princeton.
If you want to network with the power structure, go to Harvard.
If you want to be a crooked politician, go to Yale.

And if you're determined to be free from earthly desires (or at least earthly grades), go to Brown!

 

[ishtat]

Always try to jump the highest fence, if you succeed, great. If you fail you will never have to ask yourself, "What if I had?"

Elfin has said more sense than the rest of us put together.

One thing that does surprise me with Americans though is that more do not go overseas to University. For example if you were a fee paying student studying say medicine at Edinburgh or Melbourne you could get an exceptional school at a less than exceptional price.

 

[trysail]

This says more about the parents than it does about the kids. It is irrational and these schools are simply not worth it.

...- with full financial support...

Hmmmm. Amazing. The recipient of largesse responds favorably to the benefactor.
Quelle surprise!


"Gratitude is the expression of the expectation of future favor."

 

[trysail]

...One thing that does surprise me with Americans though is that more do not go overseas to University...

Amen, amen, amen. Knowing what I know now and if I had it to do all over again...

The difference in cost cannot be justified.

Were the American colleges subject to the monopoly and anti-trust laws applicable to business, the Justice Department would be all over 'em for predatory pricing, repeated violations of the Clayton Antitrust Act, etc., etc. The schools have confessed as much; they were caught red-handed "bid rigging" financial aid offers.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Hmmmm. Amazing. The recipient of a free lunch favorably reviews the free lunch.
Quelle surprise!


"Gratitude is the expression of the expectation of future favor."
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Trysail, you miss the point completely and you 'hee-haw' in a silly fashion.

The first thing is that Harvard and the other top schools are not in it for profit. to maintain, and improve their offer, they have to have sufficient income. They demand excellence of both school and students and this necessarily comes at a price.

The funding system is very socialist in that it works on 'from she who has to she who has need'. Harvard could exist perfectly well with only accepting full fee-paying students but they know and you would jibe that was elitist.

I could not afford the fees and feel no guilt, just gratitude, from benefiting from the generosity of Alumni - heck I may have been supported by Bush zillions. I got a place on needs-blind merit and took it from there. I despise your innuendos.

There is huge peer pressure to act for the support of the student body by taking a job. I worked for the Student Agencies and gained enormously from learning business.

Trysail, Harvard gave me the boost that made my career and life, I learnt skills I never even knew I needed. In summary, I think the top schools do a pretty impressive job in helping the ordinary guys and your blind prejudice helps no aspirant who wants to fly.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

*bump*

 

[Teloz]

I agree with everything Firebrain said, but as I didn't go to university, I don't understand any of it!

 

[trysail]

Trysail, you miss the point completely and you 'hee-haw' in a silly fashion.

The first thing is that Harvard and the other top schools are not in it for profit. to maintain, and improve their offer, they have to have sufficient income. They demand excellence of both school and students and this necessarily comes at a price.

The funding system is very socialist in that it works on 'from she who has to she who has need'. Harvard could exist perfectly well with only accepting full fee-paying students but they know and you would jibe that was elitist.

I could not afford the fees and feel no guilt, just gratitude, from benefiting from the generosity of Alumni - heck I may have been supported by Bush zillions. I got a place on needs-blind merit and took it from there. I despise your innuendos.

There is huge peer pressure to act for the support of the student body by taking a job. I worked for the Student Agencies and gained enormously from learning business.

Trysail, Harvard gave me the boost that made my career and life, I learnt skills I never even knew I needed. In summary, I think the top schools do a pretty impressive job in helping the ordinary guys and your blind prejudice helps no aspirant who wants to fly.

Au contraire; in fact, I comprehend the point all too well. It is— as you forthrightly agree— one more "soak the rich" scheme.

If you don't understand that these schools are operated in a fashion that is all but indistinguishable from "for-profit" businesses you are the one who is missing the point.

In the recent past, enabled by the misguided generosity of many donors, these schools have, in essence, been hijacked by their faculties and administrators. It is they who have become the primary stakeholders; the institutions are managed and operated with those primary beneficiaries in mind. They are accountable to no one save themselves.

I repeat: were American colleges subject to the monopoly and anti-trust laws applicable to business, the Justice Department would be all over 'em for predatory pricing, repeated violations of the Clayton Antitrust Act, etc., etc. The schools have confessed as much; they were caught red-handed "bid rigging" financial aid offers. That's a fact: do you deny it? The only reason they discontinued the practice is because they got caught.

What cost approximately $10,000 for four years thirty-five years ago should now should cost roughly $54,000 ( adjusted for CPI inflation ). Instead, the "sticker price" is in the area of $240,000 but nobody really knows what the damn price is because of the schools' success at marketing, brand management, collusion and obfuscation. Why not dispense with the smoke and mirrors and call a spade a spade? I also suggest that there are second-order consequences to the schools' less than forthright behavior. I submit that a not-insubstantial portion of the slippery ethics and financial chicanery that seem to have become endemic to American culture is directly traceable to desperate parents staring at gargantuan tuition bills.

Of course the schools are in it for "profit," but they're smart enough and slippery enough to call it a different name.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

At 16, I think your daughter has two years to decide where she wants to study. I think you have two years to persuade her that Harvard is a fantabulous school and experience. I also think that 'she' should decide where she wants to go to college/uni. It is her life and not your fantasy.

Well, she just turned 17 and graduates high school in June. It's not like she is a sophomore and I am stressed about where she is going to go to college. I'll be happy wherever she decides to go. I only wanted to know about Harvard, because they sent her an application with a nice letter and waived her application fee.

I'm very proud of my daughter. She just found out she has made it into the semi-finals for a National Merit Scholarship. But, just because I am proud of her and want information to give her about her options does not mean that I am trying to push her towards a specific direction. If she told me she wanted to go to the local community college, I'd be totally fine with that. (In fact, I had reminded her of that option.) This is totally her decision.

 

[Pure]

elfin's points are excellent. and the basic point should be reiterated.
these elite schools are in fact LESS expensive to attend, should your background be middle or working class. like elfin, i attended one of them. the education was second to none.

even if one doesn't aim to join the US ruling elite, the life options opened, are incomparable. author William S. Burroughs, for example, went to Harvard.

 

[penandpaper]

The wiki post says it all:

"Harvard has produced many famous alumni. Among the best-known are American political leaders John Hancock, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama; Canadian politicians Pierre Trudeau and Michael Ignatieff; American Philanthropist Huntington Hartford, Mexican President Felipe Calderón;[101] current UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon; philosopher Henry David Thoreau and authors Ralph Waldo Emerson and William S. Burroughs; educator Harlan Hanson; poets Wallace Stevens, T. S. Eliot and E. E. Cummings; composer Leonard Bernstein; cellist Yo Yo Ma; comedian and television show host and writer Conan O'Brien, actors Jack Lemmon, Natalie Portman, Matt Damon, Mira Sorvino, Elisabeth Shue, Rashida Jones and Tommy Lee Jones, film directors Darren Aronofsky, Nelson Antonio Denis, Mira Nair and Terrence Malick, architect Philip Johnson, Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave guitarist Tom Morello, Weezer singer Rivers Cuomo, musician/producer/composer Ryan Leslie, Unabomber Ted Kaczynski, programmer and activist Richard Stallman and civil rights leader W. E. B. Du Bois. Among its most famous current faculty members are biologist E. O. Wilson, cognitive scientist Steven Pinker, physicists Lisa Randall and Roy Glauber, Shakespeare scholar Stephen Greenblatt, writer Louis Menand, critic Helen Vendler, musician Bonnie Raitt, historian Niall Ferguson, economists Amartya Sen, N. Gregory Mankiw, Robert Barro, Stephen A. Marglin, Don M. Wilson III and Martin Feldstein, political philosophers Harvey Mansfield and Michael Sandel, political scientists Robert Putnam, Joseph Nye, Stanley Hoffman and scholar/composers Robert Levin and Bernard Rands

Seventy-five Nobel Prize winners are affiliated with the university. Since 1974, 19 Nobel Prize winners and 15 winners of the American literary award, the Pulitzer Prize, have served on the Harvard faculty."

That's effing impressive.

 

[trysail]

Haaaaaavaaaaaad can be just a sclerotic as the Social Security Administration.

At places like Wesleyan, Amherst, Colby, Bowdoin, Carleton, Pomona, Union, Swarthmore, Trinity or Hamilton they at least know your name.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=atJso6UM1xzc

“Hundreds of people throughout the university are authorized to buy pads, pencils, and other office supplies,” he [ former president Derek Bok ] wrote. “As a result, the university regularly loses the savings available through bulk purchasing and more systematic scanning of suppliers to obtain the best quality at the lowest possible price.”

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“Curious practices have grown up as the system has grown - - obstacles to sharing and coordination,” she [ Drew Faust] said. Economic arrangements at the libraries discourage them from working together, she said.

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Harvard has already slowed campus construction, reduced the hiring of new faculty, frozen salaries and fired workers to address endowment losses. The fund contributed more than a third of Harvard’s overall budget in the last fiscal year that ended June 30, she said. Harvard hasn’t yet released a budget figure for the 2009- 2010 year.

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