Tell Me About Harvard

[LadynStFreknBed]

Asperger's is rare. I diagnosed 1000s of kids and never saw one.

Is HOUSE Asperger's? No. He's what we call a cerebral narcissist...a fucking know-it-all. But even this label isnt correct, becuz he's usually right. Real cerebral narcisists are stubborn to the point of being dangerous if you cross them. Its their way or a fat lip, and when they fuck up its your fault.

The best way to seriously fuck up a diagnosis is to assume that the average child is docile, obedient, altruistic, diligent, and plays nice with others. This is the classic diagnosis for Dependent Personality Disorder.

The best measure for pathology is to gauge how much control a kid requires. Kids who need incarceration and physical restraint are much worse than kids who respond to voice commands and re-direction. The official diagnostic criteria doesnt distinguish bad from worse, or inconvenient from bad, and the typical guidance counselor doesnt know her ass from a crack in the sidewalk.

All true.
In that episode of House, they say he doesn't actually have Asperger's.

I won't say that all guidance counselors are morons, but my daughter's guidance counselors have all been idiots... from the one who tested my daughter's IQ when she was 4 without having the right test to the one who refused to write an IEP cuz he said her IQ is too high to qualify for an IEP. He also disagreed my daughter's psychiatrist's diagnosis based on the fact that my daughter gets good grades-- which has nothing to do with Asperger's.

The DSM should probably have more qualifiers about the severity of an illness. I believe, though I could be wrong, that depression is the only illness that has a qualifier for "severe."

 

[Xelebes]

Autism itself has a qualifiers: high functioning, low functioning, severe, mild, moderate. All the terms apply with regards to Asperger's as it is a part of the Autism spectrum but it is up to the clinical psychologist to value the validity of those qualifiers. Some say that Aspergers itself is enough as a qualifier on the Autism spectrum, others disagree. It's up to the doctor.

As for an IEP, IQ is an important determinant whether it is necessary as the IQ is used to determine how fast someone learns. If it is above 100, then she is ahead of the bell curve in that regard and likely does not require it. However, what she will require is some assistance with regards to socialisation. Asperger's was a diagnosis created for those who specifically have difficulties socialising but not learning. Those who have difficulties learning are grouped in the Autism category. It is the power of categorisation.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

If it is above 100, then she is ahead of the bell curve in that regard and likely does not require it. However, what she will require is some assistance with regards to socialisation. Asperger's was a diagnosis created for those who specifically have difficulties socialising but not learning. Those who have difficulties learning are grouped in the Autism category. It is the power of categorisation.

Exactly. And the whole reason that I got her officially diagnosed was because people told me that the school would do an IEP and help with her socialization. But, cuz her IQ is pushing 150, they wouldn't do the IEP and because she's in AP classes and gets good grades, they say they have nothing to offer because she has no problems at academics. It doesn't matter to them that truancy had been an issue or that she won't step foot in the cafeteria or that this is the first year she has had any friends at all. (Though I am glad she finally has friends even if I only know the nicknames that she calls them.) It doesn't matter to them that when she is asked a question, she whispers the answer or gets totally flustered even if she knows the answer. She gets her A's and is one hell of a test-taker, so they see no problems.

 

[jomar]

Hmm, I don't know that an IEP is supposed to address socialization unless the classification is behavioral/emotional disturbance. But being BED does interfere with academic functioning and that is often the bottom line: Does the condition interfere with academic success.

In your daughter's situation, good grades, AP classes, AS isn't interfering. If she had ADD as well, then... So I can see the school's position. And I assume they suggested counseling (which could actually help with the social anxiety).

You were talking about House. They actually introduced a character on Grey's Anatomy who had AS and was a top surgeon.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Hmm, I don't know that an IEP is supposed to address socialization unless the classification is behavioral/emotional disturbance. But being BED does interfere with academic functioning and that is often the bottom line: Does the condition interfere with academic success.

In your daughter's situation, good grades, AP classes, AS isn't interfering. If she had ADD as well, then... So I can see the school's position. And I assume they suggested counseling (which could actually help with the social anxiety).

Yeah, I tried the counseling thing. In PA, the legal age for consent of treatment is 14. She refuses to sign consent. Don't get me started on that one. I am responsible for her care, but I can't get her treated??? I'm not sure non-consentual therapy of any kind would work anyway. I was able to get around the consent issue when she was having violent outburst, but she is doing better now-- thank God! I only worry about the socialization now. I do what I can. I make her order her own food whenever we go out, but I help her if she gets totally flustered or starts to cry.

 

[jomar]

Maybe you've ried all this but...

Yeah, I tried the counseling thing. In PA, the legal age for consent of treatment is 14. She refuses to sign consent. Don't get me started on that one. I am responsible for her care, but I can't get her treated??? I'm not sure non-consentual therapy of any kind would work anyway. I was able to get around the consent issue when she was having violent outburst, but she is doing better now-- thank God! I only worry about the socialization now. I do what I can. I make her order her own food whenever we go out, but I help her if she gets totally flustered or starts to cry.

What's her objection to counseling?

Can it be presented as under her control? That is, go for five sessions and if she doesn't like it she can stop. Part of the presentation being the idea that she can continue to be overly sensitive/nervous or do something positive about it (an appeal to logic). Then the objective options: medicine can help her not feel so nervous but counseling can give her the tools to do it herself. And that she not weird for getting counseling for it because a lot of people have social anxiety - they have commercials about it! In fact, have her google social anxiety.

Or, bribe her.

 

[Xelebes]

Exactly. And the whole reason that I got her officially diagnosed was because people told me that the school would do an IEP and help with her socialization. But, cuz her IQ is pushing 150, they wouldn't do the IEP and because she's in AP classes and gets good grades, they say they have nothing to offer because she has no problems at academics. It doesn't matter to them that truancy had been an issue or that she won't step foot in the cafeteria or that this is the first year she has had any friends at all. (Though I am glad she finally has friends even if I only know the nicknames that she calls them.) It doesn't matter to them that when she is asked a question, she whispers the answer or gets totally flustered even if she knows the answer. She gets her A's and is one hell of a test-taker, so they see no problems.

There is therapies available but if your child is unwilling to partake in them - well, I guess it is her loss.

I know all too well going through many school years without a single friend and being the one isolated out for behaviour reasons but because my marks did not suffer, the school staff cared not what happened to me.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Where I part company with virtually every mental health professional on Earth is, I believe every mental disorder begins at SEVERE, and if your life isnt totally fucked you shouldnt have a diagnosis. You shouldnt be able to function if you collect a guvmint check.

The other thing is, a diagnosis means shit becuz they'll change it every time they update the DSM. All the DSM is is political policy a select group of perfessers agree to.

 

[KarennaC]

I know House doesn't have Asperger's, but my older daughter and I did notice some similarities between him and my younger daughter.

My younger daughter's only academic issue is math, and her school chose not to provide services for her in that subject because after I had her diagnosed by an independent evaluator and got the school to do their own evaluations, they concluded that her math issues are due to pragmatic language issues, not to an inability to do math. In other words, she doesn't understand the language used in the math program, because she's very concrete/literal and the math program is more abstract, and she doesn't understand how to ask the teacher or classmates for help when she's stuck.

She does have an IEP, though. Her official IEP identification is "student with autistic spectrum disorder". She receives speech/language services to help her out with the pragmatic language issues, and social work services to teach her how to interact with other people. She does come home and talk about friends at school, and she's close friends with a little girl in our current neighborhood, though that little girl is almost 4 years younger... Still, their social skills are at about the same place, so they get along well. We're moving in a couple weeks, but we've spent quite a bit of time in our new town because my boyfriend and his parents live there, so she's already met two girls her age and is looking forward to sleepovers. lol

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Kids fall into 3 distinct math groups: Visual learners, auditory learners, and hands-on learners. That is, they learn by seeing, hearing, and doing. Most kids are visual learners and most kids have problems with algebra word problems becuz its primarily auditory in how its presented. Once you identify a kid's primary learning modality, teaching them math is easy.

What in Hell is a pragmatic language issue?

 

[Tarakin]

(...) So, what do you know about Harvard?
(...)

I can say that Harvard is the most known university in Germany, followed by Oxford and Cambridge in England (and Yale for law). The really good German kids dream of going there. If someone would come here to apply for a job and would show his Harvard results, all doors would open immediatly. I'm sure this is similar to many other countries also. I don't know if this is earned or not or if other universities are better in the fields your daughter considers, but it may be something to consider. Getting the job of her choice, which Harvard seems to secure most of the times, will benefit her her whole working life.

 

[JagFarlane]

Just to get back on the subject of schools for a moment...take a gander over at US News and World Report's website. There, they break down the rankings for the schools according to discipline, as well as offer an idea of how much tuition is, and how much financial aid that particular school offers.

 

[monique1971]

You're right to be a little cautious. Harvard can afford to waive their application fee. That in itself doesn't mean much. One way in which they maintain very low rates of admission (and thus very high ratings for "selectivity," a key metric on the US News rankings) is by encouraging students to apply. They know that many kids won't apply to Harvard because they're intimidated, or think they can't afford it, or what have you. By encouraging as many good students to apply as they can, they can come up with very low admission rates. They're not going to send out a mass invite to every kid in the country. Obviously that would be a waste of money and dilute the power of the Harvard brand. But they can pick out the kids who are smart enough to have some sort of realistic notion of applying.

That's not to say that your daughter won't get in. She might. Who knows? But all this worrying about whether or not she'd fit in there socially may be jumping the gun. She'd have to get in, first, and an invitation to apply is not the same thing as an acceptance. Statistically speaking, she'll probably get rejected--most applicants do--and wind up as just one more data point on Harvard's "selectivity" rating.

I hope this doesn't come across as a dis of your daughter. She sounds like a cool young woman with lots of things going for her. I hope she picks the college that is the best fit for her academically and socially. That's the only way to win this game.

 

[Pure]

article about yale

http://cigarettesmokingblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/what-does-ivy-league-degree-even-mean.html

yale used to be more 'whitebread' than harvard, but they have much in common. the author (rittelmeyer), a yalie, gives a good read, with many remarks applicable to other top ivy league schools.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Thank you guys for all the excellent info.

 

[JamesSD]

Considering they're willing to waive the fee, she may as well apply. If nothing else, it will give her a chance at dinner parties to say "I was accepted by Harvard but turned them down"

It sounds like her goal is Medical school, and it sounds like she's smart and does well in school, tests well and should get good grades anywhere she went. Having high grades and good MCAT scores is helpful getting into any Med School, although good grades at Harvard does have a little more weight than good grades at big state schools.

When it comes to actually picking a school, quality of education, cost, closeness to home, and social aspects are all factors. It sounds like you're close enough to Boston for her to drive home for the holidays, which is helpful. As a recent PhD graduate, I can tell you that some of my classmates did their undergrad at "top" schools, and some from some pretty low ranked places. There's truth that a good student can succeed anywhere, although there are more opportunities to succeed at a top college.

Cost is a huge factor. Yes, there are loans available, and everyone ends up with some. Applying to Harvard and being accepted would give a good idea of what sort of financial aid package they can offer. If she can get a full ride at Harvard, saying no seems silly. On the other hand, if she can get a full ride at somewhere like Tufts, as noted by someone else, but would come out of Harvard with $50k in debt, it might be hard to argue that harvard is 50k better.

Really, you're in an awesome position. And like I said, if the app fee is free, why not apply? An application isn't a long term commitment, she can always choose somewhere else, assuming she gets in!

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

I agree with everything you said. When I pointed this out to her:

Considering they're willing to waive the fee, she may as well apply. If nothing else, it will give her a chance at dinner parties to say "I was accepted by Harvard but turned them down"

she said, "Then, I'll look like the idiot who was accepted at Harvard but didn't go." LOL

teenagers.
Anyway, she doesn't drive, but MA isn't too terribly far from me. She's afraid to learn to drive due to her Asperger's and some related, slight sensory processing delay. However, I'm sure that wherever she decides to go, we'll make it work somehow.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Sorry, just got back home from a trip and saw the thread, hope this is of some use.

I don’t recognize the Harvard described here. I loved it there.

Some points;
- The name Harvard, like all top schools, carries a cachet and certainly does help open doors in most professions. There’s still the interview to negotiate.

- Larry Summers pushed a great increase in financial aid scholarships that the new President – Dr Drew Faust – is taking even further. Around 85% of students get some aid with the taper ending above an income of $160k per annum.

- There is great emphasis on students working in campus jobs (20 hrs per week) to build a mutual help culture and over 75% of undergrads have jobs. The exceptions are the uber-rich and the spods who are going for summa cum lauda. There is no disparagement of those who work.

- Harvard has the biggest student run business, Harvard Student Agencies (Google it), with a turnover over $9m pa where students can work in anything from a clothes shop or dry cleaners to a travel publishing company or running SATs training courses - and progressing to management positions.

- All freshman dorm houses are together on the main Harvard Yard site, which is very green and full of trees. The pastoral care is good, especially in freshman year, perhaps because the college has so many foreign students.

- Although you need some AP courses and good SATS to get accepted, it is pretty difficult to lose your place. If your GPA goes way below 3 you can be asked to skip a semester and effectively retake a year. Harvard doesn’t like dropouts.

- The Wall Street thing is a bit of a myth. About 25% go for i-banking or consultancy, whereas around 15% go for teaching and all careers are covered. There is even an ROTC, though the faculty struggles with the Army’s take on gays.

Cambridge is pretty small and parochial – just students and tourists mainly – with no fast-food outlets and downtown Boston is 15 min away by Metro. And Leo’s Place is the best breakfast diner on the East Coast.

Sorry to sound like a commercial, but some silly things have been said. One huge advantage post-graduation is the Alumni Association which is all over the US and many overseas countries, including Japan. Again, benefits of networking.

Sure, Boston Uni, Boston College and others are great schools, but the slightly cloistered feel of Harvard might be an advantage for an AS sufferer.

Because of the size of the faculty and the number of courses on offer, there are not many massively huge lectures. Anyway, Harvard hasn’t got the lecture halls to accommodate them – it’s more Dickensian.

Med courses are more the Grad Med School thing – but it’s easier to get in if you’ve got a Harvard AB.

I accept the comments about dingy locker rooms. Also, with no elevators, tramping up and down 5 floors of stairs each day is a bind.

OK, I have a soft spot for the old place. It does have some warts.

 

[KarennaC]

Kids fall into 3 distinct math groups: Visual learners, auditory learners, and hands-on learners. That is, they learn by seeing, hearing, and doing. Most kids are visual learners and most kids have problems with algebra word problems becuz its primarily auditory in how its presented. Once you identify a kid's primary learning modality, teaching them math is easy.

What in Hell is a pragmatic language issue?

Pragmatic language = using language appropriately in social situations

Semantic/pragmatic language disorder is apparently fairly common in kids with autism and Aspergers. They have trouble with the meaning of what is said to them, particularly if it's abstract or figurative language, and with social situations in general, in part because they're not sure what to say in those situations. My daughter, for instance, had to be taught by rote and roleplaying that when someone says "Hello" to you, you're supposed to say "Hello" back. We're still working on saying "Nice to meet you" when she's introduced to someone.

 

[WRJames]

She's afraid to learn to drive due to her Asperger's and some related, slight sensory processing delay.

'
Boston drivers will only reinforce that fear.

 

[monique1971]

Sorry, just got back home from a trip and saw the thread, hope this is of some use.

I don’t recognize the Harvard described here.

I'd second this, actually. The people I know who went to Harvard are simply smart, interesting people, not unlike the smart interesting people you'd meet at any other good college. They're certainly not spoiled trust fund brats. They came from middle-class families in places like Louisville KY and Los Alamos, NM and Oakland CA, and they spent their time in college studying, working, volunteering, and yes, partying -- but not at exclusive balls and clubs with people throwing massive amounts of cash around.

There do seem to be quite a few professors' kids there, so I guess that's something to watch out for.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Pragmatic language = using language appropriately in social situations

Semantic/pragmatic language disorder is apparently fairly common in kids with autism and Aspergers. They have trouble with the meaning of what is said to them, particularly if it's abstract or figurative language, and with social situations in general, in part because they're not sure what to say in those situations. My daughter, for instance, had to be taught by rote and roleplaying that when someone says "Hello" to you, you're supposed to say "Hello" back. We're still working on saying "Nice to meet you" when she's introduced to someone.

OH! We used to call this ETIQUETTE or manners. Now its a disorder.

Leave it to the perfessers to change the process of acquiring social competence into pathology that requires the intervention of a specialist with a privateer license from the government.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

OH! We used to call this ETIQUETTE or manners. Now its a disorder.

Leave it to the perfessers to change the process of acquiring social competence into pathology that requires the intervention of a specialist with a privateer license from the government.

Now, I know that you are not this retarded. The language issues are just one aspect of the social problems characteristic of Asperger's. My daughter has none of the problems that Karenna's daughter has, but my daughter will get flustered in social situations and whisper or mumble instead of talking normally. I worked with one child who had Asperger's who used to yell and not realize it.

Some of the other common symptoms include : aversion to being touched or even held as infants, hypersensitivity to sound, smell, or tactile sensations, one or two intense, almost obsessive interests in a subject, extreme attachment to an item as a comfort, using nicknames for people and not ever using their real names, considering peers as beneath them or inconsequential, and ritualistic eating practices.

 

[KarennaC]

Thank you for clarifying all that, Lady

For most people, things like saying "Hello" back to someone, or "Nice to meet you", or things along those lines are common sense. We all know that's what you're expected to do. Some of us don't do it, because some of us don't have good manners, but we do know it's what's expected.

For my daughter, those things are not common sense. For her, the entire social world is a foreign culture. If most people moved to a country with customs completely different from our own, it would take time to learn them, and we might forget sometimes, especially if we're feeling especially anxious about trying to remember them or about the situation in which we need to use them. Some of us might first want to understand *why* those are the customs before we were willing to learn them. For my daughter, every day is like that.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Now, I know that you are not this retarded. The language issues are just one aspect of the social problems characteristic of Asperger's. My daughter has none of the problems that Karenna's daughter has, but my daughter will get flustered in social situations and whisper or mumble instead of talking normally. I worked with one child who had Asperger's who used to yell and not realize it.

Some of the other common symptoms include : aversion to being touched or even held as infants, hypersensitivity to sound, smell, or tactile sensations, one or two intense, almost obsessive interests in a subject, extreme attachment to an item as a comfort, using nicknames for people and not ever using their real names, considering peers as beneath them or inconsequential, and ritualistic eating practices.

I'm probably dummer than you give me credit for. In person, people constantly wonder how I manage to live without a keeper & assorted appliances. My retarded clients used to make fun of me. But I manage, by the Grace of God.

My great-grandfather graduated Harvard in 1894, my grandfather (his son) earned an engineering degree from MIT, near Harvard. They lived next door to William Faulkner in Oxford, MS. I fear that some of Faulkner's strangest characters are based on the Johnsons. It's likely.

Anyway, to my 1st point, your description of your kid sounds like every kid on the planet.

2nd puntomundo. Yesterday I read an account of the 1986 CHALLENGER space shuttle disaster. The head engineer wrote the book, and he does not like Richard Feynman, the physicist who pissed in the punch when he revealed what really went wrong. Feynman swizzled a piece of o-ring in a glass of ice-water and snapped it in half on tv. The engineer was busy running his yap about the theory of pragmatic sentences and generally leading everyone down the garden path with his tale of bullshit.

I'm a Feynman kind of person.