Health Care

[DG Hear]

DG

You missed the parts about SELLING YOUR ASSETS (HOUSE) TO OFFSET COSTS TO THE GOVERNMENT, and you didnt mention how the plan will pay for abortions. Plus you'll get a nanny to pester you about your weight, exercise, vices, and pasttimes. No more porn writing, you need to jog.

They coulda changed one little law and enrolled everyone in MEDICARE, so you gotta wonder what this other thing is all about.

I just posted what I received. I figured that others know more than I do about this crappy play. I was hoping for the feedback.
Thanks.

 

[DG Hear]

To all, we are refering to post # 49
DG

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/webl...a-democrat-rages-against-local-doctor-over-h/
RABID DEBATERS.
I suggest we end the debate and unholster our pistols. America needs a good civil war to end the chronic acrimony. Take names and slice throats.

 

[Liar]

I received this from a good friend today. I'm figuring it true but don't know for sure. I'm not about to read 1200 to 1600 pages of this document. Just posting it. Not up for arguing about it, but it does scare me some.

I think that sums it up neatly. Regurgitate chain letter rumors with skewed hyperbolic intepretations designed for maximum terror effect, instead of checking out what's actually there. You'll have to excuse me if I find it hard to take it seriously.

But hey. Freedom of speech. You're just sharing. Right?

 

[SlickTony]

You missed the parts about SELLING YOUR ASSETS (HOUSE) TO OFFSET COSTS TO THE GOVERNMENT, and you didnt mention how the plan will pay for abortions

You mean people don't have to go bankrupt to pay off hospital liens (which I have seen run to 7 figures) now? And does Medicaid pay for abortions currently?

 

[R. Richard]

• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
The government decides who gets what and how much, with no appeal. Say goodbye to your aged parents, after a lifetime of work and contributions to the system, they cost too much to keep alive.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
The government takes your money and spends it on people who are breaking federal law.

• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
The government will then be able to track each and every citizen and enforce wahtever the goverment wants, without judicial review. You could appeal a governemtn decision, but thye took all yo0ur money.

• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
A private health plan will be forced to accept all applicants, including those with pre-existing conditions. The person who has a rerminal condition that requires millions to treat? One payment and the person is in! No private plan will survive.

• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
Citizens are required to learn English. Illegal aliens are not.

• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
Hello doctor, in the current crisis, just for a while mind you, the government has decided that you work for minimum wage.

• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
$400K changed to $500K.


Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
The government has decided that aliens are better than citizens.


• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
The SS has examined your records. Ve haf decided that you haf too much money. We tranfers you to a facility where you learn proper behavior. Arbeit macht frei!

• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
An inadvertent inclusion from George Orwell's '1984' sorry.

• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
Hello doctor, in the current crisis, desipte your expensive special training, just for a while mind you, the government has decided that you work for minimum wage.

• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
This is adopted from a Navy manual. "The junior officer will develop a plan to overcome any contingency. When a contingency occurs, the junior officer will use the previously developed plan, overcomne the emergency and continue with assigned duties."

• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
"Private health plans are forced to accept all applicants, including those with pre-existing conditions. Take your diseased carcas to a private health plan.


• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
The government has decided that there are too many in the lifeboat. You must go over the side for the common good. HOwever, your politically correct children may be allowed to live!

• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
This is actually good. Obviously the President and the members of Congress need mental heath sevices.

JMNTHO.

 

[Liar]

Sometimes when you stare into the wharrgarbl, the wharrgarbl stares back into you.

 

[Guest]

Well put.

I've been looking at quite a few hospital bills lately.

All of this talk about the government "deciding" what the doctors and hospitals can charge for certain procedures?

Well, the insurance companies already do that. On every single bill we've received, the initial charges are listed, along with a "Provider Contractual Write-off". We pay a percentage from the "Allowable Charge".

It's the same damned thing.

 

[DG Hear]

Well put.

I've been looking at quite a few hospital bills lately.

All of this talk about the government "deciding" what the doctors and hospitals can charge for certain procedures?

Well, the insurance companies already do that. On every single bill we've received, the initial charges are listed, along with a "Provider Contractual Write-off". We pay a percentage from the "Allowable Charge".

It's the same damned thing.

Sweet Sarah, not to argue because we seem to disagree here. Are you willing to give up the personal insurance you have for a government run program. I'm not but as I stated, I have to go on medicare next year. I lose my dental, Eyeglasses program, higher deductable (don't have any deductables now)

I just hope they don't reduce payments on medicare coverage. I'm one of the old people that doesn't think going on a government run program is better for me. I will be able to keep my prescription drug progam. My wife is on medicare now and I couold see the drastic reduction in benefits.

Again, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

 

[DG Hear]

Being honest here I don't like having the government deciding what's good for me medically. If Bush, Clinton or any other presidents wanted this bill when they were in office I would still vote NO and be against it.

For those who like Obama, and this health bill. Would you honestly have wanted it even if Bush was in office? There won't alway's be a democrate in the white house. We're talking about our health care, not political parties.
Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one.

 

[Guest]

DG, insurance companies already decide this for us.

We just got a letter from Blue Cross suggesting a change in medication for my husband. They don't like the one his heart surgeon prescribed, they think he should switch to something cheaper.

How is this new system going to be different?

 

[john-the-author]

I have read all sorts of handwaving claims agains the article I posted. Very little evidence, but a lot of hand waving.

When you pay for health insurance, you're NOT going to get your money's worth, in general. If you are an average health customer, you will wind up paying for the guy who gets Kushinsky's Syndrome. I have no problem with that and, no, I don't envy Kushinsky because he got a lot of expensive treatment for free. However, if you are one of the pathological cases, you do get taken care of.

What I have a problem with is items like this. The proposed government plan basically requires a Social Security card for a person to be treated. If there is an illegal immigrant who doesn't have a fake SS card, he/she/it has to be an illiterate out of the jungles of the Yucatan or someplace. Private insurance will be required to take in anyone, regardless of prexisting conditions. If I have terminal lung cancer from years of smoking, I can't wait to get my treatment for the same money as the people who didn't abuse themselves. Of course, government heath insurance will cost less, because of lower administrative costs. OK, check out the retirement plans for the cities in Texas that opted out of SS, back in the 1970s when that was briefly and option. They must have higher administrative costs than SS. If so, then why is it that they pay out about three times what SS pays and the retiree owns his/her/its retirement money?

The CBO has analyzed the plan the government is proposing and the CBO says, that there is no cost savings.

The government plan will only save money by cutting payments to doctors and hospitals. I don't know about you, but I WANT my doctor to drive a Mercedes V12. If he/she/it can afford the best, likely I'm getting the best. When it comes to my health, the best is none too good. JMNTHO.

The places in Texas don't also have to pay for disability, which is a major part of the SSA system. If they had to pay for that instead of foisting it off on the SSA system that doesn't get the benefit of the SSA interest to offset those costs, they'd have much worse numbers.

The CBO has not, I believe, figured in the cost savings of the people who wouldn't need to soak up state and Federal monies if they'd gotten timely health care. And to be fair, that's not really their job to do so: they need to identify the actual costs of something, because how it may play out beyond that is outside of their scope. I'm putting together an article about this now: I have most of it, but I'd like to be able to point to the sources for a few of my numbers, which may actually be low. But I can demonstrate quite handily that just in terms of the disability claims for Social Security, we would save $100B each and every year. This doesn't include other venues, such as Worker's Comp and the like, nor does it take into account the millions of people who are partially or fully disabled and not filing for disability benefits or who don't qualify for other reasons.

I can give you the draft of this if you like with the qualification that I'm still tracking down specific provenances for some of the numbers to make it bulletproof, but it's good enough to show now that the claims about this costing us too much are complete bullshit being thrown around by Republicans to try and scare people. But bullshit they are and it shows.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

DG, insurance companies already decide this for us.

We just got a letter from Blue Cross suggesting a change in medication for my husband. They don't like the one his heart surgeon prescribed, they think he should switch to something cheaper.

How is this new system going to be different?

After awhile they won't pay for either med...or the visits to his cardiologist.

 

[john-the-author]

DG, insurance companies already decide this for us.

We just got a letter from Blue Cross suggesting a change in medication for my husband. They don't like the one his heart surgeon prescribed, they think he should switch to something cheaper.

How is this new system going to be different?

Hey, I got told by Blue Cross about 6 months ago that the cholesterol medicine I was on (successfully for 5 years with no liver damage and a reading in the 140s) was too expensive and had I even tried these cheaper drugs first? Well, no, I hadn't felt that I should second-guess the doctor who prescribed these for me. I got switched to something cheaper. We'll see if it works as well and how my liver is as a result. Gosh, thanks, Blue Cross!

 

[Guest]

After awhile they won't pay for either med...or the visits to his cardiologist.

This is why we need a change from the current system.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

This is why we need a change from the current system.

The current system will pay their contracted share of the costs as long as you call them out if they refuse.

How you going to do that with the government run system which is not regulated as the private sector is. Don't forget the government is the only entity that can take things away from you...and at the point of a gun if need be.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

No. We need to provide people the medical care they require, at the best price. And if the best price is too dear, society needs to pick up the lion's share of the bill.

As it is, half of every medical dollar pays to keep an old fuck alive his last year of life. Huh? Another big chunk pays for the 40 million illegal Mexicans in America. But even with ObamaCare their employers wont pay and they wont pay a dime either...becuz theyre illegal working for cash. They'll get the same free ride.

So the whole deal is about Medicare being broke and Mexicans who dont pay.

Society needs to help people like SARAH and fuck the Mexicans, and fuck the geezers who are dying regardless of what you do.

 

[john-the-author]

• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
The government decides who gets what and how much, with no appeal. Say goodbye to your aged parents, after a lifetime of work and contributions to the system, they cost too much to keep alive.

COMPLETELY unlike my current private plan, which limits my treatment and benefits to the approved maximums and types.

• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
The government takes your money and spends it on people who are breaking federal law.

COMPLETELY unlike our current health care system, which requires ERs to treat patients even without ID, but at much higher emergent care costs.

• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
The government will then be able to track each and every citizen and enforce wahtever the goverment wants, without judicial review. You could appeal a governemtn decision, but thye took all yo0ur money.

COMPLETELY unlike now through the IRS, to which every financial transaction is reported automatically and which has unilateral authority to freeze your accounts, garnishee your pay, and prevent you from accessing your money.

• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
A private health plan will be forced to accept all applicants, including those with pre-existing conditions. The person who has a rerminal condition that requires millions to treat? One payment and the person is in! No private plan will survive.

COMPLETELY unlike now in many states, such as Washington, which has had a guaranteed insurance program for everyone for about, uh, 25 years, where low-income and high-risk patients have been spread around the insurance companies that do business in the state, all of which seem to be surviving quite nicely.

• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
Citizens are required to learn English. Illegal aliens are not.

It doesn't say that: the section says "(7) CULTURALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY APPROPRIATE SERVICES AND COMMUNICATIONS.—The entity shall provide for culturally and linguistically appropriate communication and health services." This is no different than voting or a number of other things. So, no, RR, this one's complete bullshit.

• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
Hello doctor, in the current crisis, just for a while mind you, the government has decided that you work for minimum wage.

No, page 127 doesn't actually say this at all. It says that physicians who agree to payment at the plan rates (think "what does Blue Cross wanna pay?") get to be called "preferred" physicians and those that charge more are "non-preferred." You know: just like it is now.

• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
$400K changed to $500K.

If they don't have to spend as much on health insurance for employees, aren't they going to do better overall? Costs for my health insurance by my employer are about 20% of my paycheck; if I made less than the healthy salary I do now, it'd be a lot more. People in the mailroom making $35,000/year are getting the same coverage and theirs is as much as 50% of their salary. (We get good benefits where I am.)

Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
The government has decided that aliens are better than citizens.

No, the gov't has decided that the tourists and so on in this country should be covered by health care while they're here just like Americans are covered in most civilized foreign countries and the costs thereof are going to be trivial. Note that this says "non-resident."

RR, you are reaching to get to the paranoia here. Or are these talking points you've gotten from someone else? I can't tell.

• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
The SS has examined your records. Ve haf decided that you haf too much money. We tranfers you to a facility where you learn proper behavior. Arbeit macht frei!

The SSA and the IRS do that now. And I would say that your "conclusion" is quite a leap. Angst und Dummheit sind kein Ersatz für Intelligenz.

• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
An inadvertent inclusion from George Orwell's '1984' sorry.

Oh, I know how it sounds, but this is a legal document, so if something is legally defined as a tax, it makes a difference in the legal requirements for how it's enforced and which agency would enforce it. If it's a tax, it's going to fall under the purview of the IRS and state DORs.

• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
Hello doctor, in the current crisis, desipte your expensive special training, just for a while mind you, the government has decided that you work for minimum wage.

Page 241 is all about conversion factors and amendments to Medicare Part B and is a pile of rather boilerplate "replace this with that" sorts of language. So, no, the conclusion here is more bullshit. (You didn't read the bill, I'm thinking.)

• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
This is adopted from a Navy manual. "The junior officer will develop a plan to overcome any contingency. When a contingency occurs, the junior officer will use the previously developed plan, overcomne the emergency and continue with assigned duties."

No, it's adopted from the private insurance industry and is used as a cost-control measure.

What this actually means is that, if the hospital releases the patients too soon (e.g., they give a flu patient a bottle of pills and release him when he's got a 103.5 fever and respiratory problems rather than get the fever down, so y'just know they're going to be back soon), the hospital gets dinged for it. THIS IS JUST WHAT PRIVATE INSURANCE DOES NOW. It's *not* what Medicaid does now, though, so you should be thankful that this one reduces costs by closing this down and forces the hospitals to do a good job rather than a half-assed one. Readmitting a patient is much more expensive.

• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
"Private health plans are forced to accept all applicants, including those with pre-existing conditions. Take your diseased carcas to a private health plan.

This doesn't say that. It's modifying the cost-sharing features for individuals under private plans who also qualify for Medicaid. In fact, it extends the period for special needs individuals to apply by 5 years, after which there is still an annual open enrollment period. You may recognize open enrollment periods: they're just what you have now through your day job.

You haven't read this, have you?

• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
The government has decided that there are too many in the lifeboat. You must go over the side for the common good. HOwever, your politically correct children may be allowed to live!

It doesn't say this, either. But what is currently covered for EOL options is not very good. Ever known anyone who was dying of something painful? (And why is it that when folks always get weird about this, they assume that it's the people like >them< that are going to be getting the ax? Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and all the rest tend to recommend that Democrats/liberals/socialists (they think they're the same) be lined up and shot, so why do you assume it's the God-fearin' peasantry who are going to be marched off by the Fascist folks who simultaneously believe in freedom of choice? Well, no-one ever said that paranoia had to make sense.)

• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
This is actually good. Obviously the President and the members of Congress need mental heath sevices.

And people who are listening to Faux News, too. I think Ann Coulter's beyond help, though I'd be glad to see that bitch taking a series of electroshock treatments.

Seriously, though, payment for mental health services would be good for an awful lot of people. Most folks benefit from therapy at one point or another in their lives; few of them get it.

JMNTHO.

Assuming you read this, you need to read this bill closer in a lot of places, as you've gotten a great deal wrong. Mind you, being married to a Chief Federal Administrative Law Judge for the SSA helps for understanding some of the boilerplate ("Dear, what's an 'excess readmission?' "Why aren't you finishing the taxes??"), but this stuff was meant to be a legal document and not a novel. Reading and understanding bills is not easy stuff and it does require a legal background frequently.

 

[john-the-author]

I think that sums it up neatly. Regurgitate chain letter rumors with skewed hyperbolic intepretations designed for maximum terror effect, instead of checking out what's actually there. You'll have to excuse me if I find it hard to take it seriously.

But hey. Freedom of speech. You're just sharing. Right?

Thank you again for posting the bill, Liar. It's actually not hard to understand, but it does take a bit of time to read it.

 

[john-the-author]

Being honest here I don't like having the government deciding what's good for me medically. If Bush, Clinton or any other presidents wanted this bill when they were in office I would still vote NO and be against it.

For those who like Obama, and this health bill. Would you honestly have wanted it even if Bush was in office? There won't alway's be a democrate in the white house. We're talking about our health care, not political parties.
Just my opinion, but I think it's a good one.

A fair question, DG. Yes, I would have been unhappy finding myself on the same side of an issue as Bush, who I could cheerfully hear has been skinned alive, but in fact, this is important and YES, I would have supported. Nixon wanted to do this, too, and didn't get anywhere, but it was not his highest priority and I think it requires a considerable amount of push to get it through.

 

[DG Hear]

DG, insurance companies already decide this for us.

We just got a letter from Blue Cross suggesting a change in medication for my husband. They don't like the one his heart surgeon prescribed, they think he should switch to something cheaper.

How is this new system going to be different?

To be honest, not run by the government. You can sue an insurance company and even a doctor. You can try and talk with them or have your doctor do so. Try talking to our government. I guess I'm just not as trusting of the government as you. By the way, Glad to see your hubby is doing well. Prayers and healing to both of you.
DGH

 

[oggbashan]

There are two facts about US health care that bother me:

Fact 1. The US spends much more of its national income on health care than almost every other developed nation.

Fact 2. A large minority of US citizens can be denied, or cannot afford, basic health care that most other developed nations would consider essential for the well-being of their citizens.

The third should be celebrated:

Fact 3. The best US health care is the best in the world.

Whether the US administration's current proposals will really change either Fact 1 or 2? I don't know.

All I do know is that someone, sometime, must change Fact 2. If they could change Fact 1 without altering Fact 3 and make the total expenditure more affordable for the US as a whole that would be in the interests of the US's general economy.

Og

 

[Xelebes]

The current system will pay their contracted share of the costs as long as you call them out if they refuse.

How you going to do that with the government run system which is not regulated as the private sector is. Don't forget the government is the only entity that can take things away from you...and at the point of a gun if need be.

I don't know how the government is less regulated than the private system. They are both responsible to and regulated by the judicial system.

 

[R. Richard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Richard
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
The government will then be able to track each and every citizen and enforce wahtever the goverment wants, without judicial review. You could appeal a governemtn decision, but thye took all yo0ur money.

By John The Author:
COMPLETELY unlike now through the IRS, to which every financial transaction is reported automatically and which has unilateral authority to freeze your accounts, garnishee your pay, and prevent you from accessing your money.

I was unaware of the situation: "IRS, to which every financial transaction is reported automatically" I work on a cash basis, taking most of my pay from the cash I take from the people I collect from. I also take watches, jewelry, things like that. The cash I keep and voluntarily pay taxes on. The chattels I turn over to my employer who disposes of them via some system not known to me. The man also pays me in cash. Could you please detail the 'automatic reporting system' in effect? TIA. I would, just for laughs, like an IRS agent to come to me and try to impound my wallet. [I'm talking alone here, not supported by the courts and scumbags.] How in the hell is the IRS going to garnishee my pay? Are they gonna send an agent with me when I process a deadbeat? TIA. I would, just for laughs, like an IRS agent to come to me and try to prevent me from accessing my money. [I'm talking alone here, not supported by the courts and scumbags.]

 

[Xelebes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Richard
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
The government will then be able to track each and every citizen and enforce wahtever the goverment wants, without judicial review. You could appeal a governemtn decision, but thye took all yo0ur money.

By John The Author:
COMPLETELY unlike now through the IRS, to which every financial transaction is reported automatically and which has unilateral authority to freeze your accounts, garnishee your pay, and prevent you from accessing your money.

I was unaware of the situation: "IRS, to which every financial transaction is reported automatically" I work on a cash basis, taking most of my pay from the cash I take from the people I collect from. I also take watches, jewelry, things like that. The cash I keep and voluntarily pay taxes on. The chattels I turn over to my employer who disposes of them via some system not known to me. The man also pays me in cash. Could you please detail the 'automatic reporting system' in effect? TIA. I would, just for laughs, like an IRS agent to come to me and try to impound my wallet. [I'm talking alone here, not supported by the courts and scumbags.] How in the hell is the IRS going to garnishee my pay? Are they gonna send an agent with me when I process a deadbeat? TIA. I would, just for laughs, like an IRS agent to come to me and try to prevent me from accessing my money. [I'm talking alone here, not supported by the courts and scumbags.]

He obviously wasn't referring to under-the-table transfers of funds.