Stella_Omega
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yeah? What's the motto of the previous administration?
And the elderly homeless men and women I see sitting out on street corners are getting spectacular care.
Health Care
- Thread starter R. Richard
- Start date
R. Richard
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A private insurance company is required to provide contracted care for its policy holders. The state insurance commission won't have it any other way. The federal government isn't required to provide anything to anyone.
In most countries, where the government provides health care, the government decides who gets treatment and who doesn't. I cited a recent case where an alcoholic was denied a liver transplant in the UK and let die. Og's reply was that it was a shortage of livers not an outright denial. [They still have a lot of chavs in the UK, don't they?] I do not that Og has private insurance coverage, in addition to NHS.
In the western US region where I live, I see a lot of homeless men on the street. They are mostly concentrated in an area the locals call 'skid row.' They can get free meals and even a bit of free medical care. They don't really want food or medical care, they want booze.
In my business, I see a lot of people in desperate situations. Mostly they are in said desperate situations because they want to be. They will deny that they want to be in the desperate situations in which they find themselves, but their entire lives are focused on behavior that leads only to the desperate situation in which they find themselves. No one, not a private company, not a state, not the federal government can help those who don't really want help.
Stella_Omega
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So what's the motto of our previous administration?
R. Richard
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Well, the elderly, children and the poor are getting spectacularly screwed by the State of Californication. The funding for many services for the elderly, children and the poor are being slashed,in order to save Californication from bankruptcy. As California goes, so will the nation???
TE999
How 'bout a kiss, baby
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The short version is most things the government messes with turns out to be a monolithic, bureaucratic nightmare that does more harm than good. War on Poverty, public housing, Department of Energy, Department of Education; the list goes on.
When all is said and done, taxes will increase, services will decrease, the fit will be kept fit. The chronically ill, the physically damaged, the elderly and anyone else who is of no use to the state will be given narcotics and sent home to die.
No one has read these bills and yet the full court press is on to pass them. The analysis presented here may be biased, but then ANY analysis of a social program contains bias. If by chance an objective analysis was prepared, most people wouldn't believe it due to their biases or preconceived notions.
This whole idea needs more study. If it began tomorrow, it couldn't be fully implemented for years...plus Congress and the bureaucrats would be tinkering with it incessantly as one by one the special interest groups went before committees with their various tales of woe.
Just remember: A camel is a horse designed by a committee.
When all is said and done, taxes will increase, services will decrease, the fit will be kept fit. The chronically ill, the physically damaged, the elderly and anyone else who is of no use to the state will be given narcotics and sent home to die.
No one has read these bills and yet the full court press is on to pass them. The analysis presented here may be biased, but then ANY analysis of a social program contains bias. If by chance an objective analysis was prepared, most people wouldn't believe it due to their biases or preconceived notions.
This whole idea needs more study. If it began tomorrow, it couldn't be fully implemented for years...plus Congress and the bureaucrats would be tinkering with it incessantly as one by one the special interest groups went before committees with their various tales of woe.
Just remember: A camel is a horse designed by a committee.
Zeb_Carter
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Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that.
Stella_Omega
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And that's why commercial health insurance that I cannot possibly afford is better-- because the state of california has a repubican governator's tongue up the ass of the energy conglomerates.
Yeah, that's a telling argument.
Zeb_Carter
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Same as the the last one before that....power to the political class! Fuck the people, their to stupid to take care of themselves, to spend their money wisely, to insist on the health care they pay for and deserve. We the political class with make them all dependent on the government for their daily needs and wants. Then once they are of no use or become to expensive to maintain they will be discarded as just another blip on the radar.
Selena_Kitt
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Dumb and Dumber?
All insurance should be illegal. Every bit of it, auto, health, life, you name it. The entire industry should be eliminated.
DesertPirate
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Almost right Zeb.
The problem is the sheep (voters) haven't figured out that the biggest problem we have is the Congress itself.
Professional Politicians are never the answer, they ARE the problem.
Congress is a classic example of the definition of insanity:
Doing the same things the same way (throw money at it) and expecting different results.
DG Hear
My Friend Kipper
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How can any Senator or representative vote for a trillion dollar program that affects so many people that they have never read? How can we, the American people vote for such people.
Is it asking to much of the politicians that represent us to read the damn document? Is what we hear about this health program a scare tactic or for real? Shouldn't the ones voting on it know for sure?
The last bill they signed for trillions of dollars without reading it was the bailout for the banks and auto companies. Now they want to do it again.
I believe we need changes in our health policies but not a complete overhaul. It needs some fixing, not replaced.
Just my opinion which doesn't count for much.
DG
Is it asking to much of the politicians that represent us to read the damn document? Is what we hear about this health program a scare tactic or for real? Shouldn't the ones voting on it know for sure?
The last bill they signed for trillions of dollars without reading it was the bailout for the banks and auto companies. Now they want to do it again.
I believe we need changes in our health policies but not a complete overhaul. It needs some fixing, not replaced.
Just my opinion which doesn't count for much.
DG
DesertPirate
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And that's why commercial health insurance that I cannot possibly afford is better-- because the state of california has a repubican governator's tongue up the ass of the energy conglomerates.
Yeah, that's a telling argument.
Stella, we have no coverage either, just collection companies wondering why medicaid hasn't paid for the wifes heart attack in February. Care to trade bills?
There are things in the House bill that can't be allowed. Like the part that says "any small business providing a private health plan will have to open its books to Government Audit every 6 months"!
Wonder if the ever heard of illegle search?
Stella_Omega
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See now-- this is a prime example of how I feel about moderation.
All I have to do is put rrichard on iggy, and this entire idiot thread goes poof as far as I'm concerned. Nothing here is hateful, or needs deleting-- move it to a political forum if we had one, that would be very nice.
This is where iggy works well, yanno?
All I have to do is put rrichard on iggy, and this entire idiot thread goes poof as far as I'm concerned. Nothing here is hateful, or needs deleting-- move it to a political forum if we had one, that would be very nice.
This is where iggy works well, yanno?
Stella_Omega
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Nope, but if I have a heart attack, I won't even have the dubiousity of medicaid to fall back on. I don't qualify-- make that little bit too much money to be poor.
trysail
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C'mon, SK! Get real. You're smarter than that.
The purpose of insurance is to protect you/your heirs from BIG disasters ( your house burning, major illness, death ). The industry was invented at Lloyd's as a means of enabling merchant/ship owners to spread their risks— to the ultimate benefit of society.
You don't seem to have a problem with insurance schemes known as Social Security ( the only problem is that the government doesn't run it or Medicare as actuarially sound insurance operations ) or the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation or the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation or Federal Flood Insurance.
Insurance is abused when people attempt to use it to recoup penny-ante expenses/losses. The problem is that the general population can't seem to get it through their heads that insurance is a form of savings; it is impossible ( on average ) to receive more in benefits than one pays in premiums. If you believe otherwise, Bernie Madoff is your man.
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DesertPirate
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We easily qualify but still have to go through the appeal.
Xelebes
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1. Those who can afford the plane ticket and the discounted price of the operation.
2. Because those that do can afford the care being offered.
Those are not the questions of those that can't afford.
Xelebes
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In Canadian Law, it is considered in court that Insurance Brokers write the contracts, thus they choose which is included in the plan. If the discrepancy is in the contract, it is usually decided in favour of the plaintiff because the plaintiff had no say on what the contents of the contract were when they signed the contract. Is this not also true in US law?
Xelebes
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Doesn't matter if you say something or not. When saying something, be prepared to imply something else.
TE999
How 'bout a kiss, baby
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Xelebes
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Isn't that a ThoughtCrime?
No, as long as the implications are just that.
TE999
How 'bout a kiss, baby
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Wouldn't those be inferences? I could never get that imply/infer business straight in my mind.
R. Richard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Richard
1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan
A) An insurance COMPANY writes a contract. The USA consumer can CHOOSE to sign a specific company's contract, or not. If the consumer doesn't like a specific company's contract he/she/it is NOW free to chose another company's contract or go without health insurance. Under the plan currently under discussion, the USA consumer will not really be allowed to go without health insurance, at least not without a hefty penalty that some here say they can't afford.
B) The USA consumer can now CHOOSE to sign a specific company's contract, or not. [In general, if a consumer signs a contract, the consumer is bound by the contract unless said consumer can convince a court of law that said consumer was too stupid to know what he/she/it signs.] Under the plan currently under discussion, the USA consumer will not really be allowed to not accept the plan, at least not without paying a hefty penalty.
C) When a consumer is dealing with a private company, the consumer has a choice. The consumer can either deal or not deal, as the consumer chooses. Try telling the USA government that you don't want to participate in the fraud known as Social Security.
Originally Posted by R. Richard
1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan
A) An insurance COMPANY writes a contract. The USA consumer can CHOOSE to sign a specific company's contract, or not. If the consumer doesn't like a specific company's contract he/she/it is NOW free to chose another company's contract or go without health insurance. Under the plan currently under discussion, the USA consumer will not really be allowed to go without health insurance, at least not without a hefty penalty that some here say they can't afford.
B) The USA consumer can now CHOOSE to sign a specific company's contract, or not. [In general, if a consumer signs a contract, the consumer is bound by the contract unless said consumer can convince a court of law that said consumer was too stupid to know what he/she/it signs.] Under the plan currently under discussion, the USA consumer will not really be allowed to not accept the plan, at least not without paying a hefty penalty.
C) When a consumer is dealing with a private company, the consumer has a choice. The consumer can either deal or not deal, as the consumer chooses. Try telling the USA government that you don't want to participate in the fraud known as Social Security.
DG Hear
My Friend Kipper
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I received this from a good friend today. I'm figuring it true but don't know for sure. I'm not about to read 1200 to 1600 pages of this document. Just posting it. Not up for arguing about it, but it does scare me some. I lost my insurance next year and have to go on medicare. Yuck. Benefits will be cut before I even get there. (I didn't write the opinions after some of the statements)
DG
Subject: HR3200 Exposed be Aware!!!
Get ready, here it comes.
THE THINGS IN THE HEALTH CARE BILL…..HERE ARE THE PAGES AND THE 20 TOPICS….ESPECIALLY PG 425, 427, 429…..
Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the gov ernment will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
•=2 0Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates an d controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government a pproval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-o f-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payme nts to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
This would be better named NO OPTIONS FOR SENIORS AND THE VERY ILL.
DG
Subject: HR3200 Exposed be Aware!!!
Get ready, here it comes.
THE THINGS IN THE HEALTH CARE BILL…..HERE ARE THE PAGES AND THE 20 TOPICS….ESPECIALLY PG 425, 427, 429…..
Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the gov ernment will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesn’t' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
•=2 0Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates an d controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government a pproval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Government provides approved list of end-o f-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payme nts to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
This would be better named NO OPTIONS FOR SENIORS AND THE VERY ILL.
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
Guest
DG
You missed the parts about SELLING YOUR ASSETS (HOUSE) TO OFFSET COSTS TO THE GOVERNMENT, and you didnt mention how the plan will pay for abortions. Plus you'll get a nanny to pester you about your weight, exercise, vices, and pasttimes. No more porn writing, you need to jog.
They coulda changed one little law and enrolled everyone in MEDICARE, so you gotta wonder what this other thing is all about.
You missed the parts about SELLING YOUR ASSETS (HOUSE) TO OFFSET COSTS TO THE GOVERNMENT, and you didnt mention how the plan will pay for abortions. Plus you'll get a nanny to pester you about your weight, exercise, vices, and pasttimes. No more porn writing, you need to jog.
They coulda changed one little law and enrolled everyone in MEDICARE, so you gotta wonder what this other thing is all about.
