Moderation show-and-tell, anyone?

[SweetWitch]

I have no examples for discussion. Those were deleted long ago by their authors. But I have memories.

A few years ago, some of my work was getting a lot of notice. As many can imagine, I was quite proud of all the comments and feedback I was getting and seeing here on the boards. Then one person--whose name I won't mention--took it upon himself to attack one novel I had written because it was nominated for an award. He even admitted that he'd never read it. He said some pretty rude things.

I tried not to respond, but you know how it is. Sometimes you just can't resist. I thought my response was dignified and not at all rude. I told him it was all right and I appreciated the fact that he hadn't read it--that I would appreciate if he never read any of my work. It obviously wasn't his cup of tea.

Big mistake. He came back with a personal attack, acting as if he knew me quite personally (if you get my meaning) and saying that I was nothing more than an embittered middle-aged woman from the lowly mid-west. Those weren't his exact words, but it was the gist of his comments.

I will admit that I was very insulting in my response. I hated myself afterwards for having lowered myself to his position. It's ugly and dirty at that level. Then he went after some of my friends, and being the rabid mother hen that I am, I was enraged. I asked the powers to do something and was met with silence. I pulled the bulk of my work from the site, but all that did was to remove my stories.

After I calmed down, I realized that I was responsible for the whole exchange--not because of what I'd said, but because I had allowed the filth of one person to infect me. He was never worth a second thought from me, nor any consideration for his opinions. In retrospect, I'm glad the powers didn't do anything. He has a right to spew his ignorance, just as I have a right to laugh at him for being ignorant. And to feel sorry for him because the only way he can make his miserable self feel any better is to try to hurt others. Sad, no?

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to think I'm an enlightened person and that I can take such banter with a grain of salt. This place is fabulous, just the way it is. The only way trolls, asshats, buttwipes, jerkoffs and dirtbags can hurt us is if we give them that power. I don't need a moderator to protect me because I don't have to respond to--or even read--anything that can be offensive to me. I don't take it so seriously anymore. There's too much in life to enjoy for anything said here to have a lasting impression.

 

[michchick98]

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to think I'm an enlightened person and that I can take such banter with a grain of salt. This place is fabulous, just the way it is. The only way trolls, asshats, buttwipes, jerkoffs and dirtbags can hurt us is if we give them that power. I don't need a moderator to protect me because I don't have to respond to--or even read--anything that can be offensive to me. I don't take it so seriously anymore. There's too much in life to enjoy for anything said here to have a lasting impression.

Very well put, Molly. Which is what I think many of us have been trying to say. If we point out specifically the person or persons we're ignoring for whatever reason, that seems to give others reasons to argue with us about "well I don't think he's that bad" or "she's never been that way with me" and it really gets us nowhere but back to where we started.

Ignoring, either with the tools provided or by the old-fashioned way (not responding), is the best course of action. It'll also put a stop to the inadvertent attention we're giving to the "trolls" because whoever is mentioned as being ignored, he/she will spout off even more.

Moderation won't do anything more than stir up more shit because someone will eventually bitch that he or she is being treated unfairly or censored unjustly.

 

[slyc_willie]

Very well said, Molly. More eloquent and concise than what I've offered.

I, too, like Lit the way it is. There will be, and have to be, changes in the cycle of how the AH is perceived by its members. Some say this forum is more abusive and vitriolic than it has been in the past. I've also seen at least one person post that it is no worse now than it had been at some previous point, several years ago.

It's a matter of perception. The membership of the AH is always changing. People come and go. New people arrive and old ones leave. It's the same as life. Personally, I've met some pretty cool new posters here in just the last few weeks and months. Handley_Page, Dianthus, penandpaper to name a few. They contribute in their own way, expressing their opinions and impressions, just like the rest of us. It's the way it goes.

Saying the way the AH is now is "worse" than it has been in the past is nothing more than a personal observation, motivated by numerous factors. One of those, I suspect, is a feeling of loss toward some Lit members who used to post frequently but left for personal reasons. It's a desire to make nostalgia reality.

And, yes, I am aware that some of those who have departed recently did so because of the antics of certain others. Or, that's the claim, anyway. Maybe we'll see them come back. It's been known to happen. But I find it hard to believe anyone would invest so much energy in making friends here and immersing themselves in this interesting little cybernetic culture we have to simply throw it all away because of some nasty comments. There are -- or should be -- deeper reasons than that.

Over the past few years since I've joined Literotica, I've made some unexpected friends. Some I have met, others I probably never will but will still consider them friends. There is one in particular, a certain older gentleman whose views and remarks rub a lot of people the wrong way. I have been, on a few occasions here and there, personally attacked or ridiculed for indulging him. But the truth is, I like the guy. I'd love to meet him face-to-face some day.

That's one of the great things about this place. We meet people from all around the world, with very diverse views on life, relationships, politics, what have you. This place gives us the chance to just let it all hang out and be liked, admired, ridiculed or even hated for whatever dances off our fingertips. At least here in the AH, where intelligence is the rule of the day more often than ignorance, we can feel free to express ourselves however we like without fear of having an Internet schoolmarm smack us on the wrist.

That shouldn't be changed.

Oh, and Molly? The certain someone who shall not be named? It's been quite a while since he's posted anything, in case you haven't noticed.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

.

.

.

.


.

 

[sr71plt]

Right, Slick. The AH reflects life--which is a good thing for whatever writers are tooling around in here. Someone who can't take AH as it is probably is having trouble dealing with real life too. Which, basically, is their problem to face; I don't see that others have an obligation to plant them a rose garden.

 

[Recidiva]

I have no examples for discussion. Those were deleted long ago by their authors. But I have memories.

A few years ago, some of my work was getting a lot of notice. As many can imagine, I was quite proud of all the comments and feedback I was getting and seeing here on the boards. Then one person--whose name I won't mention--took it upon himself to attack one novel I had written because it was nominated for an award. He even admitted that he'd never read it. He said some pretty rude things.

I tried not to respond, but you know how it is. Sometimes you just can't resist. I thought my response was dignified and not at all rude. I told him it was all right and I appreciated the fact that he hadn't read it--that I would appreciate if he never read any of my work. It obviously wasn't his cup of tea.

Big mistake. He came back with a personal attack, acting as if he knew me quite personally (if you get my meaning) and saying that I was nothing more than an embittered middle-aged woman from the lowly mid-west. Those weren't his exact words, but it was the gist of his comments.

I will admit that I was very insulting in my response. I hated myself afterwards for having lowered myself to his position. It's ugly and dirty at that level. Then he went after some of my friends, and being the rabid mother hen that I am, I was enraged. I asked the powers to do something and was met with silence. I pulled the bulk of my work from the site, but all that did was to remove my stories.

After I calmed down, I realized that I was responsible for the whole exchange--not because of what I'd said, but because I had allowed the filth of one person to infect me. He was never worth a second thought from me, nor any consideration for his opinions. In retrospect, I'm glad the powers didn't do anything. He has a right to spew his ignorance, just as I have a right to laugh at him for being ignorant. And to feel sorry for him because the only way he can make his miserable self feel any better is to try to hurt others. Sad, no?

I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to think I'm an enlightened person and that I can take such banter with a grain of salt. This place is fabulous, just the way it is. The only way trolls, asshats, buttwipes, jerkoffs and dirtbags can hurt us is if we give them that power. I don't need a moderator to protect me because I don't have to respond to--or even read--anything that can be offensive to me. I don't take it so seriously anymore. There's too much in life to enjoy for anything said here to have a lasting impression.

Thank you. Beautifully stated and what I believe to be true for myself.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Oh, he's insulted me several times, and I've responded in kind. But I see his behavior as more bullyish than trollish. Once he knows he can get to you, he'll keep doing it until you show him it doesn't bother you. Because he attacks for the effect of it. That's all.

I'm not going to be anyone's patrolman. I'm not a moderator. And yes, I read his posts. Like I said, he sometimes has interesting things to say. Just because he's an asshole doesn't mean he can't be intelligent (or at least well-read).

You just said it; "Attacking for the effect of it." That is a troll.
Trolls are not exclusively the inchoherent fools that show up from time to time and are easily discouraged. Many trolls are intelligent, well-spoken and well-read. It's his intent that defines him.
I've had jbj on ignore since about three months after he arrived. Any time I take a look at what he's saying, I regret that I've done so. So I wonder just how long it takes to convince him that "he doesn't bother me."

When this thread began, I went to advanced search. I typed stella into keywords. I typed jamesbjohnson into user name. I went to the botom of the page and chose "search in posts" and hit go.

I got eleven pages of posts in which he mentions me by name. Most of those "didn't bother me" because I never saw them. But they must have given him some kind of satisfaction.

So you can/t tell me in one breath that the only way to deal with trolls is to shun them,. and then in the next breath that so-and-so isn't a troll because YOU say he isn't. That's why shunning doesn't work.
There will almost always be someone who says so-and-so isn't a troll. Hell, Amicus insisted that that wacko SMOTP or whoever was merely a pure, innocent Christain girl that everyone was being mean to.

 

[sr71plt]

So I wonder just how long it takes to convince him that "he doesn't bother me."

Maybe until you stop showing him that it does? (Just a guess.)

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

.

.

.

.

.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Maybe until you stop showing him that it does? (Just a guess.)

Let's see. Two years wasn't long enough.

He's an unhealthy old drunk anyway, he could have a heart attack. Or a stroke.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

.


.


.


.


.

 

[SweetWitch]

Very well put, Molly. Which is what I think many of us have been trying to say. If we point out specifically the person or persons we're ignoring for whatever reason, that seems to give others reasons to argue with us about "well I don't think he's that bad" or "she's never been that way with me" and it really gets us nowhere but back to where we started.

Ignoring, either with the tools provided or by the old-fashioned way (not responding), is the best course of action. It'll also put a stop to the inadvertent attention we're giving to the "trolls" because whoever is mentioned as being ignored, he/she will spout off even more.

Moderation won't do anything more than stir up more shit because someone will eventually bitch that he or she is being treated unfairly or censored unjustly.

Exactly. When I was a child, I used to marvel at the adults who could rise above the petty neighborhood crap and laugh it all off. As a kid, it was hard for me to not be defensive whenever anyone went on the attack.

Now that I'm an adult, I have to put those childish things behind me. Just because others act like brats in the sandbox doesn't mean I have to be the same way. I can pity them and I can blow them off--but I don't have to respond in kind.

Very well said, Molly. More eloquent and concise than what I've offered.

And, yes, I am aware that some of those who have departed recently did so because of the antics of certain others. Or, that's the claim, anyway. Maybe we'll see them come back. It's been known to happen. But I find it hard to believe anyone would invest so much energy in making friends here and immersing themselves in this interesting little cybernetic culture we have to simply throw it all away because of some nasty comments. There are -- or should be -- deeper reasons than that.

Every day events effect how people behave on here. If their lives have suddenly turned to shit and they come here looking for support, they often find it, but they sometimes forget that this place is also populated by chronically unhappy people. These miserable persons are not seeking support. They want others to feel as bad as they do, so they attack and take great delight in committing offenses. A person who is hurting is easily wounded, so these attacks are exacerbated by the pain they already feel. Before you know it, damage is done and off they run.

I don't understand why people have to take it all so personally and not take into consideration the personality who is causing the issues. Those "trolls" are never worth that much wasted emotion.

Over the past few years since I've joined Literotica, I've made some unexpected friends. Some I have met, others I probably never will but will still consider them friends. There is one in particular, a certain older gentleman whose views and remarks rub a lot of people the wrong way. I have been, on a few occasions here and there, personally attacked or ridiculed for indulging him. But the truth is, I like the guy. I'd love to meet him face-to-face some day.

That's one of the great things about this place. We meet people from all around the world, with very diverse views on life, relationships, politics, what have you. This place gives us the chance to just let it all hang out and be liked, admired, ridiculed or even hated for whatever dances off our fingertips. At least here in the AH, where intelligence is the rule of the day more often than ignorance, we can feel free to express ourselves however we like without fear of having an Internet schoolmarm smack us on the wrist.

That shouldn't be changed.

I'd like to think you count me among those friends. It's been a particular honor to have met you--in the flesh... You're a charming and intelligent man.

Some of the people who have been discussed on this thread I consider my friends. Although I've seen behavior from a few of them that I cannot condone, can I honestly say I'm without fault? The old guy you're talking about is mostly annoying and intrusive, but I won't tell him he has no right to join in. If he wants to act like a jackass, that's his business. I don't have to pay him any attention--therefore he has no power over me.

I've had my differences with the pilot, but can I honestly say that I don't like him? No. He's intelligent enough and can be witty and charming when he's not being negative, so I find redeeming qualities in him. I'm sure that if I'd met him under different circumstances, he and I would be good friends. I'm not about to tell him he has no right to his opinions, just as I have a right to my opinion of his ideas.

When a friend was so viciously attacked at the worst time of her life, my first instinct was to go after the one who hurt her. But that's not my place and it certainly wouldn't have served any purpose worthy of such an expenditure of my time and energy. It was better spent in support of her. She pulled through and stayed with us knowing that many here care a great deal for her. The attacker only managed to secure his position of pariah.

Oh, and Molly? The certain someone who shall not be named? It's been quite a while since he's posted anything, in case you haven't noticed.

Nope. Never noticed. He's off my radar. I give him no more thought than I did to whatever it was that I scraped off my shoe this morning. I was sorry for the poor thing that died under my footfall, but it has no real effect on my life.

Right, Slick. The AH reflects life--which is a good thing for whatever writers are tooling around in here. Someone who can't take AH as it is probably is having trouble dealing with real life too. Which, basically, is their problem to face; I don't see that others have an obligation to plant them a rose garden.

Our only obligation in that regard is to not drag ourselves down. We can show support for our friends, and call others on their rudeness without being rude and thoughtless ourselves.

Thank you. Beautifully stated and what I believe to be true for myself.

Thanks.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

.


.



.



.

.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Exactly. When I was a child, I used to marvel at the adults who could rise above the petty neighborhood crap and laugh it all off. As a kid, it was hard for me to not be defensive whenever anyone went on the attack.

.

See, my childhood experience was that it was best to hunker down and not respond to attacks-- not respond, turn the other cheek. I can still do that, but I prefer to have adult tools available, and I prefer that other people acknowledge that I know when I can make those decisions for myself.

This whole discussion has taken some very wierd turns.

To talk about CENSORSHIP!!!!! and FREEDOM!!!!! in the context of a forum that is more like a very good barroom-- which, if it were a very good bar would have a bouncer or two-- seems to me to be a rather muddle-headed argument.

*Srug*

 

[SweetWitch]

See, my childhood experience was that it was best to hunker down and not respond to attacks-- not respond, turn the other cheek. I can still do that, but I prefer to have adult tools available, and I prefer that other people acknowledge that I know when I can make those decisions for myself.

This whole discussion has taken some very wierd turns.

To talk about CENSORSHIP!!!!! and FREEDOM!!!!! in the context of a forum that is more like a very good barroom-- which, if it were a very good bar would have a bouncer or two-- seems to me to be a rather muddle-headed argument.

*Srug*

Hunkering down is a form of defense. It's how you defended yourself from the ugliness that surrounded you. I often did that myself when I was little.

As far as adult tools: We can decide whether something--or someone--is important enough to fight. Injustice abounds everywhere. Most of the perpetrators do what they do to cause pain. When we let them get to us, when we respond to their stupidity, we're giving them persmission to step all over us. If we respond in kind, their viciousness escalates. If we refuse to respond, we take their power away and leave them impotently sputtering the darkness of their own night. It's not "turning the other cheek". It's rising above the pettiness because we have security in our own values. "They" become less than nothing and that's the best revenge.

This is more than a "barroom". For many it's a college dorm or a friend's house or even a second home. For me, it's a place where I can unwind and engage in conversation with my buddies--whether that conversation is pointless and silly, or intelligent and thought-provoking. I don't need a "bouncer" to decide what I should or shouldn't see. I can make up my own mind about it.

 

[Pure]

note to all.

i've followed this thread and the other. all sides have been aired. and most importantly, it's occurred to me that the majority is a
non-issue, though it clearly lies in 'do not moderate.' the ones pushing it, i suggest, have no intention of following the majority.

with that in mind, i think both threads should be left to sink, as well as any further threads on moderators. AND threads on the sad state of AH, as well.

surely it's plain to everyone that the profusion of these threads, where no one is going to change, is sillly, and it poisons the atmospere of AH. if AH isn't sadly off, it soon will be.

i will be putting my money where my mouth is, and following the above suggestion. anyone feel like talking about life, death, love, sex, authoring, and feelthy peectures?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Pure, do me a favor then, and take this username off moderator status so I can put it on ignore.

 

[SweetWitch]

i've followed this thread and the other. all sides have been aired. and most importantly, it's occurred to me that the majority is a
non-issue, though it clearly lies in 'do not moderate.' the ones pushing it, i suggest, have no intention of following the majority.

with that in mind, i think both threads should be left to sink, as well as any further threads on moderators. AND threads on the sad state of AH, as well.

surely it's plain to everyone that the profusion of these threads, where no one is going to change, is sillly, and it poisons the atmospere of AH. if AH isn't sadly off, it soon will be.

i will be putting my money where my mouth is, and following the above suggestion. anyone feel like talking about life, death, love, sex, authoring, and feelthy peectures?

Respectfully, I have to disagree. This hasn't been a pointless discussion. It has, for the most part, proved that discussion can take place here, that debate is possible with a minimum of all the ridiculous carping and name-calling. I've enjoyed this discussion for that reason alone.

It's never a waste of time to debate something and share ideas. It's part of being human. I see no poison here, just intelligent people expressing thoughts and opinions.

 

[sr71plt]

I guess you missed the sweet little pic of the troll used in argument.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure
i've followed this thread and the other. all sides have been aired. and most importantly, it's occurred to me that the majority is a
non-issue, though it clearly lies in 'do not moderate.' the ones pushing it, i suggest, have no intention of following the majority.

with that in mind, i think both threads should be left to sink, as well as any further threads on moderators. AND threads on the sad state of AH, as well.

surely it's plain to everyone that the profusion of these threads, where no one is going to change, is sillly, and it poisons the atmospere of AH. if AH isn't sadly off, it soon will be.

i will be putting my money where my mouth is, and following the above suggestion. anyone feel like talking about life, death, love, sex, authoring, and feelthy peectures?

Respectfully, I have to disagree. This hasn't been a pointless discussion. It has, for the most part, proved that discussion can take place here, that debate is possible with a minimum of all the ridiculous carping and name-calling. I've enjoyed this discussion for that reason alone.

It's never a waste of time to debate something and share ideas. It's part of being human. I see no poison here, just intelligent people expressing thoughts and opinions.

She's right, you know. These has been pleasant discussions with no acrimony and few personal insults. No decision will be made, but none was expected to be made. However,l I think it has been about talked out now, and it may be time to bring it to a halt. I believe it has been shown that most persons here don't want a moderator on this forum.

 

[SweetWitch]

I guess you missed the sweet little pic of the troll used in argument.

I said "minimum". There will always be some rudeness, but it's up to us to consider the source or take offense. I choose to ignore.

 

[sr71plt]

I said "minimum". There will always be some rudeness, but it's up to us to consider the source or take offense. I choose to ignore.

Yeah, well, a problem more serious here than not having a moderator (in my opinion) is a club where the members either ignore or applaud their own members' bad behavior while pointing fingers at what they don't like other posters doing/posting. This was rampant in the "good old days" some of them say they miss and would like to go back to.

I think that's more of a problem with the AH than having it unmonitored--and, of course, they want one of their own to do the monitoring.

 

[Stella_Omega]

and, of course, they want one of their own to do the monitoring.

No matter how often you say this it still is not true.

 

[michchick98]

When this thread began, I went to advanced search. I typed stella into keywords. I typed jamesbjohnson into user name. I went to the botom of the page and chose "search in posts" and hit go.

I got eleven pages of posts in which he mentions me by name. Most of those "didn't bother me" because I never saw them. But they must have given him some kind of satisfaction.

Now reverse that search and see how many times you've mentioned him. You're either not understanding us or you're only reading what you want. Stop mentioning him and the fact that you have him on ignore. Stop bringing up anything he says in damned near every post you write. Just IGNORE him. Forget he exists. Don't take him off ignore to see if he's saying anything about you, put him back on ignore, then bitch that he's saying shit about you....he'll continue to do it knowing it's bothering you.

When the second member of the group of "those who shall not be named" kept spewing the same insults at me over and over again, I stopped replying to him. I stopped paying any attention to anything he had to say. And you know what? He's left me alone. Even if he comes in here today, I could care less what he says about me. If it makes him feel better to be so hateful....if his life is so miserable for him to insult and degrade others....then I'll let him do it if it makes him feel better about himself.

So you can/t tell me in one breath that the only way to deal with trolls is to shun them,. and then in the next breath that so-and-so isn't a troll because YOU say he isn't. That's why shunning doesn't work.
There will almost always be someone who says so-and-so isn't a troll. Hell, Amicus insisted that that wacko SMOTP or whoever was merely a pure, innocent Christain girl that everyone was being mean to.

So just because you think one person is a troll, does that mean we all have to think the same thing?

What part of "stop talking about him" are you not getting?

Let's see. Two years wasn't long enough.

He's an unhealthy old drunk anyway, he could have a heart attack. Or a stroke.

And how many times has it been said to IGNORE -- COMPLETELY IGNORE (however you choose to ignore is up to you) the person who's spewing the garbage? Stop bringing him up in every post. Stop giving him the attention. He's only doing it to get under your skin, and it seems to be working.

Seriously, this thread is starting to resemble kids arguing on a playground.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

.
.
.
.
.