What we think we become?

Keroin

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Sitting here listening to Amy Winehouse pour out her angst. "I go back to black..." Took me back to a different time in my life. Looking back, the difference between me now and me then is mostly in my mind. I'm not one of those people who believe you can have a Ferrari if you just think about it really, really hard but I do also believe we are, for the most part, architects of our own life.

I've engraved on my subconscious:

I'm funny. I'm healthy. I'm attractive. I'm happy. I'm lucky. I'm prosperous. I'm creative. I'm loved. I love. I'm generous. I'm friendly.

Etc.

If I actually am any of the above, I'm sure it's because those are the thoughts I planted and continue to nurture. I'm not a robot, I have bad days and feel like utter crap sometimes but I recognize that those moments are temporary and not a state of mind.

What do you think? Can you be what you think? Who or what determines who you are?
 
SW?

Where's my previewer??

(Dude, you know I can't watch youtube; why must you torture me? Whhhhhyyyy?)
It's kind of a youtube vid ("The Magical Power of WORDS to Create Your Destiny") of what you said in the OP. Probably worth saving the link and viewing it after you return to civ.
 
I kind of agree.

Being 'funny, healthy, attractive, etc.' tend to be confidence-inspired, which creates self-fulfilling prophecies.

On the other hand, it can get downright delusional. The most annoying damn thing in the world is the idiot who thinks he's really smarter than everyone else.
 
I kind of agree.

Being 'funny, healthy, attractive, etc.' tend to be confidence-inspired, which creates self-fulfilling prophecies.

On the other hand, it can get downright delusional. The most annoying damn thing in the world is the idiot who thinks he's really smarter than everyone else.

True enough.

I was reading recently about a study that showed women, on average, tend to rate themselves as 20% less attractive than how others rate them. I can recall times in my younger life where I considered myself an absolute mutt, physically. Nothing has changed, I haven't had plastic surgery or dyed my hair, but I feel attractive now, (not super model attractive, just normal attractive). So I wonder how many women out there are short changing themselves because they refuse to think they're beautiful?

And just in general, you know, life still throws me my quota of shit but it seems to bounce off now rather than sticking, which is just all in my brain.

But, yeah, I have a friend who does the whole Positive Thinking shtick, in a larger-than-life way, and it just gets annoying to everyone after awhile, especially when we can see some of the not-so-positive aspects of his life. Yes, you married a beautiful, smart, graceful woman...who never fucks you...this is nothing to jump up and down about. (What I want to tell him).
 
True enough.

I was reading recently about a study that showed women, on average, tend to rate themselves as 20% less attractive than how others rate them. I can recall times in my younger life where I considered myself an absolute mutt, physically. Nothing has changed, I haven't had plastic surgery or dyed my hair, but I feel attractive now, (not super model attractive, just normal attractive). So I wonder how many women out there are short changing themselves because they refuse to think they're beautiful?

Cosmo-cover standards are the bane of modern society.

There are damn damn damn few women out there who have any real confidence in their looks, regardless of what they look like.

'Super model attractive' is so... blech. Bony-ass women with no durability to them whatsoever. (Durability being a consideration for me on account of my tastes.)

But yes, carriage is a big thing. Tangible example? Tall women tend to be insecure about their height, especially if taller than male average. Such women tend to slouch, which just exacerbates the issue because they end up with horrid posture and look like they're cringing all the time.

And just in general, you know, life still throws me my quota of shit but it seems to bounce off now rather than sticking, which is just all in my brain.

Experience is a factor in that, too. The old line from the song comes to mind- "Then one day she went away. I thought I would die. But I didn't. And I thought to myself 'Is that all there is to love?'"

One learns to take things more in stride.

But, yeah, I have a friend who does the whole Positive Thinking shtick, in a larger-than-life way, and it just gets annoying to everyone after awhile, especially when we can see some of the not-so-positive aspects of his life. Yes, you married a beautiful, smart, graceful woman...who never fucks you...this is nothing to jump up and down about. (What I want to tell him).

There's being positive, and there's being 'HEY LOOK AT ME! I'M SO POSITIVE AND I'M MARRIED TO THIS TOTALLY HOT CHICK! LOOK AT ME SMILE!'

It's braggadocio, essentially.
 
I beleive that by taking small steps, persisting and knowing your strengths and weaknesses, you can do whatever you dream of.
With a little self-motivation, I have learnt how to "fake it until I make it". I know the things I'm good at - and I get help with the things I know I struggle with.
Do I still think I'm pretty average? Sure - but I'm not going to let everyone else know about it! It just makes people doubt my abilities, and I do enough of that without other people doing it too.
 
I have books on cognitive therapy (mother is a psychologist so they were just sitting around) and I learned a lot about the power of positive thinking from them. The central concept is that instead of reacting the normal way to failure (internalizing emotions such as guilt, shame etc.) you must learn to modify your thinking, and therefore your behaviour in order to be more successful in the future. Like much of psychology, it's simply conditioning: if you're exposed to something enough, your brain will accommodate it and eventually change to accept it.
 
I realised when I was young that I was somewhat shy. I did not like putting myself out there socially speaking. I was also an army brat, and would have to up stakes and go every 1-3 years. So were all the kids around me. So unless I wanted to be a total hermit, I had to learn to make friends. I decided that I was not going to be shy any more, and that was that.

In 10th grade I had a moment where I realised that I was too damned bookish, quiet, and geeky, and that my drive for grades was ruining my chances of enjoying my life. So I decided to change my outlook and enjoy myself and my surroundings more. And that, too, was that.

At 18, I realised that I was going about the whole women and relationships thing incorrectly. I needed to change my outlook, and that would modify my fortunes. That was that, and I've not been single since.

In none of these cases was "positive thinking" a factor. It was a study of how I acted, and why I acted that way, followed by a conscious decision to change how I thought and saw certain things.
 
I realised when I was young that I was somewhat shy. I did not like putting myself out there socially speaking. I was also an army brat, and would have to up stakes and go every 1-3 years. So were all the kids around me. So unless I wanted to be a total hermit, I had to learn to make friends. I decided that I was not going to be shy any more, and that was that.

In 10th grade I had a moment where I realised that I was too damned bookish, quiet, and geeky, and that my drive for grades was ruining my chances of enjoying my life. So I decided to change my outlook and enjoy myself and my surroundings more. And that, too, was that.

At 18, I realised that I was going about the whole women and relationships thing incorrectly. I needed to change my outlook, and that would modify my fortunes. That was that, and I've not been single since.

In none of these cases was "positive thinking" a factor. It was a study of how I acted, and why I acted that way, followed by a conscious decision to change how I thought and saw certain things.

That's been how I've tended to modify what I've been doing. I'm a "get sick of myself finally and just switch up after epiphany" person usually.
 
I agree to a large extent that we are we we think we are, in the sense that you originally posted the thought, Keroin.

There are always exceptions, of course.

For example, I know people who think think they're funny but aren't, or think they're bright but aren't. Not sure I know anyone who thinks (s)he's attractive but isn't... possibly because "attactive" is harder to pin down than "funny" or "bright". Some people just have the kavorka, even if they're ugly ;) And I think a large part of kavorka is confidence.
 
I have books on cognitive therapy (mother is a psychologist so they were just sitting around) and I learned a lot about the power of positive thinking from them. The central concept is that instead of reacting the normal way to failure (internalizing emotions such as guilt, shame etc.) you must learn to modify your thinking, and therefore your behaviour in order to be more successful in the future. Like much of psychology, it's simply conditioning: if you're exposed to something enough, your brain will accommodate it and eventually change to accept it.

Interesting points.

Bold text: I think embracing failure was a big part of my change. I think the concept of failure is so negative that when it happens we react negatively. But we can't always succeed, can we? And failure is often a better teacher, with more to offer, than success. Actually, my focus is on doing, as opposed to success/failure, and that seems to work wonderfully.

Success through failure? Hm.

I realised when I was young that I was somewhat shy. I did not like putting myself out there socially speaking. I was also an army brat, and would have to up stakes and go every 1-3 years. So were all the kids around me. So unless I wanted to be a total hermit, I had to learn to make friends. I decided that I was not going to be shy any more, and that was that.

In 10th grade I had a moment where I realised that I was too damned bookish, quiet, and geeky, and that my drive for grades was ruining my chances of enjoying my life. So I decided to change my outlook and enjoy myself and my surroundings more. And that, too, was that.

At 18, I realised that I was going about the whole women and relationships thing incorrectly. I needed to change my outlook, and that would modify my fortunes. That was that, and I've not been single since.

In none of these cases was "positive thinking" a factor. It was a study of how I acted, and why I acted that way, followed by a conscious decision to change how I thought and saw certain things.

I know what you're saying and I've made lots of those conscious decisions, too, but I think what I'm referring to is more of an everyday thought pattern. Not a mantra, per se, but something similar.

Does that make sense?

Not lightening striking a tree but water gradually shaping a stone.

I agree to a large extent that we are we we think we are, in the sense that you originally posted the thought, Keroin.

There are always exceptions, of course.

For example, I know people who think think they're funny but aren't, or think they're bright but aren't. Not sure I know anyone who thinks (s)he's attractive but isn't... possibly because "attactive" is harder to pin down than "funny" or "bright". Some people just have the kavorka, even if they're ugly ;) And I think a large part of kavorka is confidence.

A big part of attractiveness is attitude and confidence, for men or women. I met a Swiss girl here, about a year ago, who was good looking - blonde, tall, nice teeth, fairly slim. There were other women around who, I would say, were technically more attractive than Swiss Miss but she had all the guys following her around like bees to a flower. If I had to pin it down, I'd call it a glow. You got a real sense that she was comfortable in her own skin, genuinely interested in others, and, overall, a very happy person.
 
I'm a big believer in positive thinking. I'm not always so good at it. I tend to call myself names and I get really irritated with myself.

I've often said, when it comes to children, that if you call a child stupid/ugly/fat/useless long enough, eventually they'll believe it. I think it's true of adults, too. But, in lots of cases, it's not someone else saying that you're stupid/ugly/fat/useless it's you. Doesn't mean it's less effective.

But the opposite is true, too. A healthy dose of common sense, helps though. No amount of me telling myself I'm skinny and or pretty will actually make me any of those. lol
 
The mind is very powerful. Look at it in the negative sense. A girl with an eating disorder can be a walking skeleton a day away from death and still in her mind see herself as fat.
 
But the opposite is true, too. A healthy dose of common sense, helps though. No amount of me telling myself I'm skinny and or pretty will actually make me any of those. lol

Well the theory is if you only focus on your fatness than that is what you will attract into your life. Telling yourself you can be thin might not work but convincing your mind that you can be might be helpful.

Here is another one on weightloss

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm4oMgtsCrI
 
Positive thinking is great and all but I think I am the person I am today because of the challenges and situations I have experienced in 45+ years of life.

It wasn't positive thinking that got me where I am today. It's been thrown constant challenges while moving every 2-3 yrs and having to deal with them. I could never just have someone else take care of me, or even have someone else to lean on. One of the most positive results from being a military spouse is learning to simply suck it up and solve the issue because no one else is going to do it for you. I've never lived near family, husband has been gone or way too busy most of the time and it takes at least a little while to make friends.

Often I would think I couldn't do something. I would be worried to the point of nausea that I didn't have what it would take to get through a situation. But I would have no choice, especially after the children were born. I needed to take care of them, so I would.
 
That's been how I've tended to modify what I've been doing. I'm a "get sick of myself finally and just switch up after epiphany" person usually.

Basically. "Why am I doing this? This is stupid."

--

Interesting points.

Bold text: I think embracing failure was a big part of my change. I think the concept of failure is so negative that when it happens we react negatively. But we can't always succeed, can we? And failure is often a better teacher, with more to offer, than success. Actually, my focus is on doing, as opposed to success/failure, and that seems to work wonderfully.

Success through failure? Hm.

Failure is always the better teacher.

I play wargames, or used to anyway. I taught my friends to play, and we did a lot of gaming of many sorts, scales, genres, etc. I almost always won. In fact, it happened so damned often, that I would purposefully dick with my army lists and deployments and such to give myself a handicap (though I never said it to my friends). I gave up on genre after genre because I was stagnant. Sure, I was winning, but I wasn't getting any better. Lame. And the few times I got to play someone legitimately good, I got wiped.

And I loved every minute of it. I was stomped flat by one of the best in the world, and I spent the whole game watching everything he did and soaking it in. Fantastic stuff. It made me a better player, which, unfortunately, caused me to be even more capable of beating my poor friends.

I rarely learn from success, and never learn from uninterrupted success. I learn from fucking up, figuring out how I fucked up, and correcting it.

I know what you're saying and I've made lots of those conscious decisions, too, but I think what I'm referring to is more of an everyday thought pattern. Not a mantra, per se, but something similar.

Does that make sense?

Not lightening striking a tree but water gradually shaping a stone.

The implication in my posts was that the outlook change was what precipitated the change in life en toto. I did not stop being shy. I told myself that I was just not going to be shy any more. I still felt it, but forged on ahead anyway. And I kept feeling it and telling myself, and feeling it and telling myself, until it stopped being an issue.

That was that, as I said, but it was the result of maintenance. I did not mean to imply that I flipped the switch. It was just that a conscious decision caused the change, and the external effect was essentially immediate.

The change with women was the freaky one. I made the decision, and literally one day later a young woman that I'd been attracted to for a while (and failing to get anywhere with) chased me down and asked me out.

A big part of attractiveness is attitude and confidence, for men or women.

Don't I know it. Attitude and confidence are all I've got going for me :p

--

It's been thrown constant challenges while moving every 2-3 yrs and having to deal with them. I could never just have someone else take care of me, or even have someone else to lean on. One of the most positive results from being a military spouse is learning to simply suck it up and solve the issue because no one else is going to do it for you. I've never lived near family, husband has been gone or way too busy most of the time and it takes at least a little while to make friends.

Often I would think I couldn't do something. I would be worried to the point of nausea that I didn't have what it would take to get through a situation. But I would have no choice, especially after the children were born. I needed to take care of them, so I would.

Yup, I can't count how many times my mom had to go to the... fuck, can't remember the name of the service office, the office where you can borrow things like plumbing tools, and yard care equipment to be used on quarters. Anyway, she was always having to go to that office, get some piece of equipment that we didn't own, and figure out how to fix something. My mom is both more technically competent and intelligent than she ever gives herself credit for, and she almost always got shit done. I would do what I could to help, and I learned more about plumbing from those times working with her than I ever did from my dad.

Unfortunately, my mom lived through what Graceanne was talking about. She's moderately dyslexic when it comes to words, and pretty seriously math dyslexic, and they didn't have a clue about that stuff when she was growing up. So she was just called stupid by her verbally and emotionally abusive parents. And she still can't escape those words, even though she is in her 60's.

I will never forget her saying that she was called stupid growing up, and she swore that she would never do that to her kids. And thus I don't do it to mine.
 
The power of positive thinking VS The power of negative thinking

Somehow the second seems to be stronger, but I think it is only because all you have to do to let a negative prophecy fulfill itself is either sit back and do nothing or keep on doing the same thing you have always done.

But to bring a positive change in your life, it is not enough to wish it, you also have to work on it and change something in the way you do things.

In regard of the OP question: Do we became who we think we are? I think the answer is "it depends".

I can think I'm top model material all I want but the fact that I'm only 5feet tall will not change. However believing that I did not need to be any different to be attractive did work wonder as it made me less self conscious and more self confident. I can tell myself I'm a genius, but my IQ number will not change. However believing I can do whatever I put my head to will, as it will make me focus and work on it.

With humor I think is tricky: you either are funny or you are not. But there is something funny in always saying lame jokes as well :p

To summarize the above:
"Can you be what you think? Who or what determines who you are?"
Yes, you can be what you think within limits. However only thinking it is not enough: you have to also act on it and make your actions match your thinking. And believing in the outcome makes the action easier.

(disclaimer: the above applies in the absence of mood disorders. I know all to well that when depressed no amount of "happy thoughts" will lift you from your hole)
 
I've engraved on my subconscious:

I'm funny. I'm healthy. I'm attractive. I'm happy. I'm lucky. I'm prosperous. I'm creative. I'm loved. I love. I'm generous. I'm friendly.

Etc.

If I actually am any of the above, I'm sure it's because those are the thoughts I planted and continue to nurture. I'm not a robot, I have bad days and feel like utter crap sometimes but I recognize that those moments are temporary and not a state of mind.

What do you think? Can you be what you think? Who or what determines who you are?

Who or what determines who you are?

Many things I think. It's the whole nature/nurture debate. Probably a combination of genes and external influences shape who you are and how you live.
I think both these contribute and help mould who you are as a person, in terms of personality traits and what you are able to achieve in life; in terms of opportunity, environment and experiences.

Can you be what you think?

In terms of being the human being you want to be...in having the personality traits you admire, like honesty, happiness, generosity of spirit.....yes, I think you can. But I think even that comes down to the desire and ability to do so. I believe that we learn a lot of our behaviour and so to some degree you can be what you think.
I guess there are cases though where genes are too dominant, or there are chemical imbalances, so additional help is needed in order to be what you want or who you think you are. For example you might think you are generally a happy person, but the reality is that very occasionally you are suseptible to depression; you might think you are confident but in rare circumstances suffer panic attacks. But then I guess that throws up the question...are you really the person you think you are in that case anyway....or are you just kidding yourself?
Who we think we are is all relative anyway I reckon...what I might see as generosity of spirit, another might see as naivety. A lot of it comes down to perceptions.
I also think there are situations where you desire to be a certain way, but find that your personal circumstances might preclude you from it or at least make it more difficult for you to be the person you want to be or that think you are deep down.

In terms of the other stuff...the being 5 foot nothing and wanting to be a supermodel, the person living in poverty in a third world county and wanting a life of abundance etc.....No, unfortunately there are some things that are just not within our power to be.


did any of that make sense? I only just woke up! :eek:
 
Yup, I can't count how many times my mom had to go to the... fuck, can't remember the name of the service office, the office where you can borrow things like plumbing tools, and yard care equipment to be used on quarters. Anyway, she was always having to go to that office, get some piece of equipment that we didn't own, and figure out how to fix something. My mom is both more technically competent and intelligent than she ever gives herself credit for, and she almost always got shit done. I would do what I could to help, and I learned more about plumbing from those times working with her than I ever did from my dad.

Unfortunately, my mom lived through what Graceanne was talking about. She's moderately dyslexic when it comes to words, and pretty seriously math dyslexic, and they didn't have a clue about that stuff when she was growing up. So she was just called stupid by her verbally and emotionally abusive parents. And she still can't escape those words, even though she is in her 60's.

I will never forget her saying that she was called stupid growing up, and she swore that she would never do that to her kids. And thus I don't do it to mine.

The Self-help store has the paint, stuff to fix the toilets, mulch, new light fixtures etc. Outdoor Rec has rototillers, and tools to rent. I know both places very well.

The ability to overcome obstacles like your mother has and manage to fix something or solve the problem is an amazing strength and just as valuable as a high IQ.
 
Failure is always the better teacher.

I play wargames, or used to anyway. I taught my friends to play, and we did a lot of gaming of many sorts, scales, genres, etc. I almost always won. In fact, it happened so damned often, that I would purposefully dick with my army lists and deployments and such to give myself a handicap (though I never said it to my friends). I gave up on genre after genre because I was stagnant. Sure, I was winning, but I wasn't getting any better. Lame. And the few times I got to play someone legitimately good, I got wiped.

And I loved every minute of it. I was stomped flat by one of the best in the world, and I spent the whole game watching everything he did and soaking it in. Fantastic stuff. It made me a better player, which, unfortunately, caused me to be even more capable of beating my poor friends.

I rarely learn from success, and never learn from uninterrupted success. I learn from fucking up, figuring out how I fucked up, and correcting it.

I was damn lucky in the wargaming group I hung around with when I was a teenager. It was by and large composed of ex-military types who got into the older-style minis- microarmor, Napoleonics and the like.

They were a serious bunch with their games, because for them it was a way of keeping their hands in their former professions.

There were two guys in that group I absolutely could not beat. One was a former NCO and who went OCS and ended up commanding an armored company. The other didn't have that background, but he had a steel-trap mind of the sort who could plan a chess game a dozen moves ahead.

The latter I could hang with, even take him to the edge sometimes, but only by disrupting his careful scheming with off-the-wall craziness. The old armor guy? I could sort of work him in the old school stuff, Napoleonics/Civil War, but man, in microarmor I might as well bring a jar of Vaseline along in anticipation of a thorough schooling.

One of my most treasured memories was a three on three Civil War scenario, not a famous battle but just a randomly generated meeting engagement.

I'm left flank for my team. Across from me is the old armor jock. In overall command on his team is the other guy.

...yeah, I got slaughtered. Horribly. But because they focused on neutralizing me, we crushed their left flank and made enough of a mess of things in the center to call the whole affair a draw. At the post-battle coffee and smoke session, I pointed out that if they'd focused all the troops they'd thrown at me on the center, they would've crushed it completely and won pretty handily. The guy who ran their side conceded that I was right in hindsight, but said that during their planning session they'd identified me as the key threat and basically focused on putting their best troops and giving them a hearty dose of numerical superiority in order to turf me.

Talk about an ego boost. Especially because by GOD, if I'd taken that damn ridgeline in the initial rush I could've strafed those fuckers all day long. Fucking dice.

(Don't even get me started on having a fresh cavalry unit and a straight shot at Wellington at Waterloo. That missed opportunity and timid overall commander, grr...)

[/nerd]
 
I was damn lucky in the wargaming group I hung around with when I was a teenager. It was by and large composed of ex-military types who got into the older-style minis- microarmor, Napoleonics and the like.

They were a serious bunch with their games, because for them it was a way of keeping their hands in their former professions.

There were two guys in that group I absolutely could not beat. One was a former NCO and who went OCS and ended up commanding an armored company. The other didn't have that background, but he had a steel-trap mind of the sort who could plan a chess game a dozen moves ahead.

The latter I could hang with, even take him to the edge sometimes, but only by disrupting his careful scheming with off-the-wall craziness. The old armor guy? I could sort of work him in the old school stuff, Napoleonics/Civil War, but man, in microarmor I might as well bring a jar of Vaseline along in anticipation of a thorough schooling.

One of my most treasured memories was a three on three Civil War scenario, not a famous battle but just a randomly generated meeting engagement.

I'm left flank for my team. Across from me is the old armor jock. In overall command on his team is the other guy.

...yeah, I got slaughtered. Horribly. But because they focused on neutralizing me, we crushed their left flank and made enough of a mess of things in the center to call the whole affair a draw. At the post-battle coffee and smoke session, I pointed out that if they'd focused all the troops they'd thrown at me on the center, they would've crushed it completely and won pretty handily. The guy who ran their side conceded that I was right in hindsight, but said that during their planning session they'd identified me as the key threat and basically focused on putting their best troops and giving them a hearty dose of numerical superiority in order to turf me.

Talk about an ego boost. Especially because by GOD, if I'd taken that damn ridgeline in the initial rush I could've strafed those fuckers all day long. Fucking dice.

(Don't even get me started on having a fresh cavalry unit and a straight shot at Wellington at Waterloo. That missed opportunity and timid overall commander, grr...)

[/nerd]

Would you and Homburg like some time alone?

*Raises eyebrow*

(Kidding, kidding. Please continue with the gibberish.)
 
I think if you stress observation and critical thought, you might be slipped up some of the time, but there's a mass of evidence to be sorted through about your character. Time and experience gives you the opportunity to wear down illusion and delusion and build up realistic and workable systems of behavior.

I was telling my daughter last night that I can't ever be sure of who I am internally, but there are some external signs.

I'm not a "have a nice summer" person, I told her. There's an episode of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" where a young girl is so socially ineffective and insignificant that nobody notices her and due to some supernatural assistance, becomes truly invisible (and insane.)

On reviewing her yearbook, they notice they had all shared some of her classes, they didn't know her, but they all signed her yearbook "Have a nice summer" - which they knew was the social kiss of death. People say it when they don't have anything to say.

So I'm not sure about my status socially. I could be wise, I could be excruciatingly ordinary. I could be the village idiot, I could just be not qualified to even be an idiot.

But I do know that in general, I don't give out and I don't get back "Have a nice summer."

I do know I'm noticed and I have an effect and people care one way or the other, and so do I.

So those are some of the conclusions I come to. Beauty, power, happiness...they are all easy to change and quick to judge. But some effects remain the same socially. People respond in a certain way to me, and that determines who I think I've become. Someone who makes some sort of impression, good or bad, but has a definite shape, even if I don't know what that is.

I think I can create a positive internal if not external environment where I can be dynamically responsible for creating happiness, and that's what I try to do. The other ways of thinking don't work out so well for me.
 
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