We The People

[amicus]

Dear Liar, my old antagonist, there are many who would like to repeal the Amendment that added the Unconstitutional Income Tax, for one thing. Secondly, the Constitution outlines what basic authority the government has to tax and for what purposes.

If you do not see the obscenity of taking half of every persons income for government projects outside those authorized in our founding document, then come out and say it?

Amicus

 

[Liar]

Ok ami:

Yes, to cling blindly to the specific letter about what can be tax finianced and not, from a document that was written when mules were the prime mode of transportation, muskets were cutting edge weaponry and real men wore wigs, is obscene.

If your argument for allowing tax for some stuff and decrying it for others is because that was what happened to be mentioned in the original design-by-comittee constitution, then you're no better than a religious man clinging to the letter of the Bible rather than to his own rational mind.

Every tax and every tax financed activity should stand or fall on it's own factual and rational merits. You don't like facts and reason, amicus? I happen to think they're pretty neat.

Now, that being said, I'm not a fan of excessive taxes. IMO a lot of taxes and tax funded programs SHOULD fall on their own merits based on present and real life facts. But let's focus on present and real life facts, shall we?

 

[Zeb_Carter]

It is called taxation.

Are you against any and all taxation for any and all purpose? Or is it just "theft" and "armed robbery" when the taxed money goes to things YOU don't approve of?

Are you categorically against all taxes? Even to fund, for instance, defense, court and law enforcement? Or do you actually think that this bill will tax you unreasonably much? And for a purpose you think is asinine? (not at all an unreasonable opinion) Then...gah...just say so. Yelling "robbery" hyperboles is just another voice in the wharrgarbl (look it up) noise.

Categorically, no. When they are useful things, like national defense, infrastructure and so on. But when they are for boondoggle, pork project with no actual benefit to me or 90% of the people yes. Cap & Trade is about power and wealth redistribution nothing more. There are no motives of purity to help mankind involved in that bill. Not even in the long term. It's all about power. And not the electrical kind.

I do have a problem with taxes on income. You want to tax me, tax what I spend, not what I make. What I make is none of the governments business. You tax what I spend, then even if I get my money from illegal activities I still pay taxes. But just on what I spend.

(Read HR25 for a complete outline of the $20 million researched federal consumption tax.)

 

[amicus]

You illustrate the difficulty I have in communicating with many on the left here in that you apparently reject the concept of absolute, unchanging values.

The Colonies rebelled over excessive taxation. The concept of a small Federal government will never be an antiquity as the only function of a government is to protect the rights of the people, not to breast feed them.

Yes, times changed between 1776 and 1900 as industrial wealth began to raise the living standards of all. The times changed certainly between 1900 and 2000, they will always change as time passes as long as men are free to innovate an exceed that which they observe about them.

Excessive government, by its very definition and nature, becomes oppressive, consuming more and more of the wealth of the people. Not only does it become oppressive, it become brutal an disdains the individual rights guaranteed, at least in this nation, by Enumerated Laws.

The entire infrastructure could be supplied and renewed by the market far more efficiently than government does. The private market could provide an educational system far superior to the public one that now exists and meet the needs of even the lowest on the scale, just as McDonald's still offers a burger for a buck, the market would and could and should provide affordable education to the McDonald crowd.

I am always at a loss to understand, with all the failures of command societies exposed to the knowledge of all, what drives those of you who look to government to direct your lives.

Amicus

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Ok ami:

Yes, to cling blindly to the specific letter about what can be tax finianced and not, from a document that was written when mules were the prime mode of transportation, muskets were cutting edge weaponry and real men wore wigs, is obscene.

If your argument for allowing tax for some stuff and decrying it for others is because that was what happened to be mentioned in the original design-by-comittee constitution, then you're no better than a religious man clinging to the letter of the Bible rather than to his own rational mind.

Every tax and every tax financed activity should stand or fall on it's own factual and rational merits. You don't like facts and reason, amicus? I happen to think they're pretty neat.

Now, that being said, I'm not a fan of excessive taxes. IMO a lot of taxes and tax funded programs SHOULD fall on their own merits based on present and real life facts. But let's focus on present and real life facts, shall we?

And what facts/truths support the Waxman-Markey hoax? I mean bill? Tell what fact support using my tax dollars for it funding?

 

[Zeb_Carter]

You illustrate the difficulty I have in communicating with many on the left here in that you apparently reject the concept of absolute, unchanging values.

The Colonies rebelled over excessive taxation. The concept of a small Federal government will never be an antiquity as the only function of a government is to protect the rights of the people, not to breast feed them.

Yes, times changed between 1776 and 1900 as industrial wealth began to raise the living standards of all. The times changed certainly between 1900 and 2000, they will always change as time passes as long as men are free to innovate an exceed that which they observe about them.

Excessive government, by its very definition and nature, becomes oppressive, consuming more and more of the wealth of the people. Not only does it become oppressive, it become brutal an disdains the individual rights guaranteed, at least in this nation, by Enumerated Laws.

The entire infrastructure could be supplied and renewed by the market far more efficiently than government does. The private market could provide an educational system far superior to the public one that now exists and meet the needs of even the lowest on the scale, just as McDonald's still offers a burger for a buck, the market would and could and should provide affordable education to the McDonald crowd.

I am always at a loss to understand, with all the failures of command societies exposed to the knowledge of all, what drives those of you who look to government to direct your lives.

Amicus

They have been feeding at the great tit of government too long to notice that it has become all consuming and dictatorial in its proclamations of assistance.

 

[Liar]

Categorically, no. When they are useful things, like national defense, infrastructure and so on. But when they are for boondoggle, pork project with no actual benefit to me or 90% of the people yes.

In other words. YOU hold the poinion that it's spent on shennanigans with no redeeming value. Fair enough. You may be right.

Cap & Trade is about power and wealth redistribution nothing more. There are no motives of purity to help mankind involved in that bill. Not even in the long term. It's all about power. And not the electrical kind.

This however, is nothing but tin foil hat wharrgarbl. You really think there's a vast socialist conspiracy behind the curtain, wringing their hands and going MUAHAHAH right about now? Puh-lease. There are people who honestly believe CO2 emissions are a problem. And who honestly believe Cap & Trade is a way to deal with it.

They may be wrong. On both accounts, even. But get real, dr Evil is a fictional character.

I do have a problem with taxes on income. You want to tax me, tax what I spend, not what I make. What I make is none of the governments business. You tax what I spend, then even if I get my money from illegal activities I still pay taxes. But just on what I spend.

(Read HR25 for a complete outline of the $20 million researched federal consumption tax.)

...and now you're back on track again. Rational and constructive idea well worth consideration. I'm just not sure the math would add up (not too mention be insanely sensitive to financial ups and downs. Wages are pretty constant, cunsumption is a nervous beast.), but that's for people with speradsheets to figure out.

 

[Liar]

And what facts/truths support the Waxman-Markey hoax? I mean bill? Tell what fact support using my tax dollars for it funding?

Dunno. Haven't read the damn thing. I'm not talking about it. I was just objecting to your "taxes that I don't agree with is robbery" wharrgarbl.

 

[DesertPirate]

Crap & Tax will not alter the temperature of this planet 1 degree, ever! It is strictly an attempt to destroy the two energy sources hated by the left, coal and oil. It is nothing but a money grab and will collapse the economy, exponentially worse than it is today.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

In other words. YOU hold the poinion that it's spent on shennanigans with no redeeming value. Fair enough. You may be right.
This however, is nothing but tin foil hat wharrgarbl. You really think there's a vast socialist conspiracy behind the curtain, wringing their hands and going MUAHAHAH right about now? Puh-lease. There are people who honestly believe CO2 emissions are a problem. And who honestly believe Cap & Trade is a way to deal with it.

Never said anything about conspiracies. Just the bill does't benefit the planet nor the people it's aimed at.

They may be wrong. On both accounts, even. But get real, dr Evil is a fictional character.

He was, he was...but the waxmen markey bill is too. I've read it.

...and now you're back on track again. Rational and constructive idea well worth consideration. I'm just not sure the math would add up (not too mention be insanely sensitive to financial ups and downs. Wages are pretty constant, cunsumption is a nervous beast.), but that's for people with speradsheets to figure out.

HR25 was researched with private funds, no government involvement except for the sponsors of the bill. $20 million of private funds were spent calculating the replacement percentage needed to make it a tax neutral bill. The taxes collected via the consumption tax will be slightly higher than those collected via the income tax.

As a matter of fact the first year projects are slightly low due to the fact that there were several unknowns involved and suppositions had to be made.

Such as...

Drug dealers, pimps and hookers pay no income taxes, but will pay the consumption tax.

Visitors, tourists, etc. pay no income tax but will pay the consumption tax.

Government pays no income tax but will pay the consumption tax.

Tax exempt orginizations pay no income tax but will pay the consumption tax.

You get the point...I hope.

 

[TE999]

Crap & Tax will not alter the temperature of this planet 1 degree, ever! It is strictly an attempt to destroy the two energy sources hated by the left, coal and oil. It is nothing but a money grab and will collapse the economy, exponentially worse than it is today.

Therein lies the fundamentally irrational thought process that motivates such people. Coal and oil are what make this country function...it's entire infrastructure depends on it...and since nukes are bad too...let's get rid of all them things right now and use wind, water and the sun instead.

That's like canceling the electricity to your home and trying to maintain it's same level of comfort and utility using flashlight batteries.

 

[DesertPirate]

Therein lies the fundamentally irrational thought process that motivates such people. Coal and oil are what make this country function...it's entire infrastructure depends on it...and since nukes are bad too...let's get rid of all them things right now and use wind, water and the sun instead.

That's like canceling the electricity to your home and trying to maintain it's same level of comfort and utility using flashlight batteries.

Pretty much!
I do worry about storing nuke waste, having lived with a reactor on my Sub I do know a little.

 

[TE999]

Pretty much!
I do worry about storing nuke waste, having lived with a reactor on my Sub I do know a little.

I read something recently about how nuke waste can be recycled too...can I remember where and any details? No. That's the problem with info overload and having a mind like a sieve.

 

[Byron In Exile]

This day should be set aside for all members of Government to read the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution.

Oh, right. As if that'll ever happen...

That would be like throwing a bucket of water on the Wicked Witch of the West.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Now, that being said, I'm not a fan of excessive taxes.

And who defines what "excessive" is?

When the "Income Tax" was first introduced, it was with promises that the ordinary people would never have to pay anything, that it was just a tax on the obscenely rich.

 

[rgraham666]

The one thing I'm noticing in this thread is that the person that started it and the people who agree with him don't regard those who have a different opinion from them as part of 'We, The People'.

Shrugs. That's understandable. In a war on evil you do not compromise with evil. You certainly don't consider their opinions.

 

[DesertPirate]

The one thing I'm noticing in this thread is that the person that started it and the people who agree with him don't regard those who have a different opinion from them as part of 'We, The People'.

Shrugs. That's understandable. In a war on evil you do not compromise with evil. You certainly don't consider their opinions.

The fact that most of those that disagree don't regard us as intelligent life forms has no bearing? The left is far more intollerant that the right and always has been. Some of us have just decided to call them on it instead of rolling over every time.

 

[Liar]

And who defines what "excessive" is?

Oprah, the Hoff and Hanna Montana. While doing speedballs. Duh.

The correct answer would of course be "the people" who elect representatives whose ideas on taxes they agree with. (Or it would be, in a perfect world where politicians don't promise shit thay can't keep.)

When the "Income Tax" was first introduced, it was with promises that the ordinary people would never have to pay anything, that it was just a tax on the obscenely rich.

There's a novel idea. But oh noes woe and doom, isn't that redistribution of wealth? Eep socialism!

 

[Byron In Exile]

The one thing I'm noticing in this thread is that the person that started it and the people who agree with him don't regard those who have a different opinion from them as part of 'We, The People'.

Shrugs. That's understandable. In a war on evil you do not compromise with evil. You certainly don't consider their opinions.

I certainly do.

I'm "not from around here," so I don't know what the "teams" are.

I pretty much have to deal with posts on their face.

Did I answer your previous questions alright, by the way, or did I miss some?

Let me know. Even at its most contentious, this thread hasn't come anywhere close to the level of invective that's considered routine on the GB. So I think it's rather tame, although still quite interesting.

 

[rgraham666]

The fact that most of those that disagree don't regard us as intelligent life forms has no bearing? The left is far more intollerant that the right and always has been. Some of us have just decided to call them on it instead of rolling over every time.

So, in other words, you act just like 'The Lefties'.

This makes you better people, how?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

And who defines what "excessive" is?

When the "Income Tax" was first introduced, it was with promises that the ordinary people would never have to pay anything, that it was just a tax on the obscenely rich.

This is how its always packaged for sale to the pissants. Fatcats dont pay taxes. Their money is offshore in hidden accounts they make donations too and get tax deductions for.

Taxes are intended to hose the people who start a business and havent learned how to bribe politicians yet. It keeps down the competition.

 

[DesertPirate]

So, in other words, you act just like 'The Lefties'.

This makes you better people, how?

Just calling them on their own intollerance that's all. Self defence is still allowed in most states, untill Obama gets his way. They collectively showed their ass on the Miss California farce. How much compassion and belief in free speech was shown there? Might have set the whole movement back ten years with one idiotic temper tantrum.

At least I'm not telling another country how to do things.

 

[TE999]

I've noticed a marked lack of vilification and invective since certain persons who shall remain nameless have quit the field of battle.

Rational discourse, as the truth, will out.

 

[Liar]

I've noticed a marked lack of vilification and invective since certain persons who shall remain nameless have quit the field of battle.

Yep. I mean who are you guys going to call names and vilify if everyone who disagrees with you got bored and left the room?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Oprah, the Hoff and Hanna Montana. While doing speedballs. Duh.

The correct answer would of course be "the people" who elect representatives whose ideas on taxes they agree with. (Or it would be, in a perfect world where politicians don't promise shit thay can't keep.)

There's a novel idea. But oh noes woe and doom, isn't that redistribution of wealth? Eep socialism!

You don't think "the people" are basically asleep at the wheel?

Here in California, the voters are constantly approving measures that nullify tax increases they supposedly voted for.