We The People

[TE999]

Yes, but a government that ignores the basic fundamentals set by that document and it's interpretations by the people of those fundamentals is not a government of the people. It's usually called a dictatorship.

Which is what we're devolving into...a dictatorship (or a tyranny) of the minority...much like many ants make a colony, the various and sundry aggrieved groups in this country send their representatives to Washington to further their causes...said reps rally under one banner and viola control of the public purse is achieved...with which patronages are dispensed...and said reps remain in office until death.

We have reached the point where the number of people in this country riding in the wagon outnumber those who are still pulling it...the myriad forms of welfare...Medicare and Medicaid...the list goes on.

The nation needs a new crop of taxpayers to fleece and that need will be filled by immigrants...legal and otherwise...Americas' youth has developed a disdain for trades, crafts and manual labor in general...these jobs will be filled by immigrants...with the benevolent government helping them every step of the way.

 

[amicus]

That is already happening here and the results are being seen in many Euro nations as they are limiting immigration and exercising segregation for many.



Happy 4th to you and yours!

 

[Xelebes]

Which is what we're devolving into...a dictatorship (or a tyranny) of the minority...

Just trying to cut through the bluster, who is the minority?

 

[DesertPirate]

Just trying to cut through the bluster, who is the minority?

The far left, the ones that make all the noise, funded by George Soros.

 

[sr71plt]

Which is what we're devolving into...a dictatorship (or a tyranny) of the minority...much like many ants make a colony, the various and sundry aggrieved groups in this country send their representatives to Washington to further their causes...said reps rally under one banner and viola control of the public purse is achieved...with which patronages are dispensed...and said reps remain in office until death.

We have reached the point where the number of people in this country riding in the wagon outnumber those who are still pulling it...the myriad forms of welfare...Medicare and Medicaid...the list goes on.

The nation needs a new crop of taxpayers to fleece and that need will be filled by immigrants...legal and otherwise...Americas' youth has developed a disdain for trades, crafts and manual labor in general...these jobs will be filled by immigrants...with the benevolent government helping them every step of the way.

Guess it's time for you to move then, to save your pure self.

Although I'm sure you are carrying so much more than your equal burden that it will bankrupt us completely to see you go.

Let us know what better place you found.

 

[Xelebes]

The far left, the ones that make all the noise, funded by George Soros.

George Soros? I'm not computing here, sorry. Care to clarify?

 

[DesertPirate]

George Soros? I'm not computing here, sorry. Care to clarify?

Billionare that seems to hate the US system and wants it to become socialist or worse. Wonder why he is trying to destroy what made him rich?
Provides all funding for MoveOn.org, the dailyKOS, and the failing Air America left wing radio.

 

[Xelebes]

Billionare that seems to hate the US system and wants it to become socialist or worse. Wonder why he is trying to destroy what made him rich?
Provides all funding for MoveOn.org, the daileyKOS, and the failing Air America left wing radio.

If we're oing to label those sources as "far left", then what of your sources you prefer to cite from. Is this not kettle-pot?

 

[DesertPirate]

If we're oing to label those sources as "far left", then what of your sources you prefer to cite from. Is this not kettle-pot?

Go read their propaganda it's all socialist and worse. They are hung by their own words, the hate America first crowd.

 

[Xelebes]

Go read their propaganda it's all socialist and worse. They are hung by their own words, the hate America first crowd.

Trust me, I have read them. But I wouldn't call it far left just as I wouldn't label your sources as far right. You paint to merely vilify and not understand what or why the left is offering.

 

[Guest]

Go read their propaganda it's all socialist and worse. They are hung by their own words, the hate America first crowd.

Different president now.

We can dissent and NOT be called unpatriotic.

Just because I disagree with YOU does not mean I hate America.

That is the utmost arrogance, my friend.

 

[amicus]

Different president now.

We can dissent and NOT be called unpatriotic.

Just because I disagree with YOU does not mean I hate America.

That is the utmost arrogance, my friend.

~~~

It is not the ineffectual Chief Executive that makes the difference, it is the worst possible combination of Chicago Politics, International weakness and socialistic policies that is both unAmerican and un Patriotic and does signify a hatred of all that America stands for.

Amicus

 

[Byron In Exile]

Just someone taking economics responding - no, that would not necessarily stimulate the economy. For the most part, much of that money in a perilous time would be socked away in either savings accounts, which I will grant be used as investment by the banks, or stuffed underneath the mattress where it gets no mileage. But because the banks too are scaling back their leverage, they wouldn't be lending as much as you'd think they would.

That still would be better than wasting it on war, banks, and frivolous projects.

Even then, I don't agree with how you posit the money would be spent.

Imagine a homeless person who suddenly has $10,000 to spend.

He/she could rent an apartment, shower and bathe, buy new clothes, and suddenly become someone who could go to a job interview and not be ashamed.

 

[Belegon]

I'm getting so tired of the way certain people on these boards, when confronted, retreat into opinionated statements of doom and despair that have no component that can be discussed in a concrete manner.

Please provide evidence that there is a dictatorship or tyranny being planned. Please reference the definitions of dictatorship and tyrant while doing so. Please show examples of elected officials in this country who are legally entitled to hold their position "until death."

Please show evidence that the "far left" is a homogeneous group and that it is funded by a certain individual. In particular, expand upon claims that politically-motivated organizations with large memberships are the tools of a shadowy demagogue rather than the voice of a segment of the population.

Please be specific about which propaganda, please define socialism and compare and contrast it with the ideals in these publications and then please tell me how ANY political belief that is pursued through the current political system can actually be un-American when it is clear that public debate from all sides was considered to be an asset by the Founding Fathers.

Please define "myriad forms of welfare." Please discuss how certainty that medicare and medicaid will bankrupt the country fits with opposition to the establishment of a national healthcare system that would eliminate them. At the same time, please show why eliminating the significant cost to business that is currently imposed by supplying health insurance would be a negative upon the health of those companies... since I can't think of a single small to medium business owner I know who would not immediately point to health care and workers comp as their two biggest costs associated with employees other than actual wages.

Please provide examples of failed policies and programs that would indicate that this President is ineffectual rather than effective in a manner that disagrees with your personal goals.

Please provide examples of international failures and losses of territory and influence that would show that the global status of the United States has been weakened in the last six months.

And finally, please provide evidence that any and all of these individuals you scream against "hate America" rather than that they have certain beliefs that do not align flawlessly with your own.

I want stuff that can be proven or disproven. I want something besides the opinions. I want to see if you can actually quit screaming long enough to have rational discourse.

Forgive me if I don't believe that any of that will happen.

 

[cloudy]

.....

 

[Belegon]

You're my hero. But you're right - it won't ever happen.

no, but I bet someone else will come along and point out that I missed an "h" in "while"

 

[freshface]

no, but I be someone else will come along and point out that I missed an "h" in "while"

And the "t" in "bet"

But I also appreciated you taking the time to try to return rationality to the discussion. It's too bad that some people don't seem able to look at different sources and draw their own conclusions.

 

[Belegon]

And the "t" in "bet"

But I also appreciated you taking the time to try to return rationality to the discussion. It's too bad that some people don't seem able to look at different sources and draw their own conclusions.

Damn, thought I caught it before anyone could quote it. Anybody else have that experience where you always seem to miss edits in posts until you actually see them on the board?

And thank you. I actually do want to see the sources. But I quite honestly believe that I will be given nothing more than links to websites that agree with them. Of course, if I were to respond in kind, it would simply trigger another round of "the mainstream media is corrupt."

Once upon a time, I used to sit around with friends of differing political POV's and we would discuss things until the owners of the coffee house/bar/restaurant kicked us out. True, most of the time we would simply be engaging in the kind of venting that happens here.

But occasionally, real ideas would get through and a real consensus would be formed. It was enlightening and enjoyable and none of us hated each other. I would love to see it happen here.

Sadly, I think that it is far easier to rant and despise and hate when you are behind a firewall. I doubt we can get much of that atmosphere to transfer. However, that does not mean it is worthless to attempt a change.

 

[freshface]

Damn, thought I caught it before anyone could quote it. Anybody else have that experience where you always seem to miss edits in posts until you actually see them on the board?

And thank you. I actually do want to see the sources. But I quite honestly believe that I will be given nothing more than links to websites that agree with them. Of course, if I were to respond in kind, it would simply trigger another round of "the mainstream media is corrupt."

Once upon a time, I used to sit around with friends of differing political POV's and we would discuss things until the owners of the coffee house/bar/restaurant kicked us out. True, most of the time we would simply be engaging in the kind of venting that happens here.

But occasionally, real ideas would get through and a real consensus would be formed. It was enlightening and enjoyable and none of us hated each other. I would love to see it happen here.

Sadly, I think that it is far easier to rant and despise and hate when you are behind a firewall. I doubt we can get much of that atmosphere to transfer. However, that does not mean it is worthless to attempt a change.

Happens to me all the time. It's funny how it looks different when it's in the little typing window.

When I mentioned sources, I was really talking about people looking at more than the ones they agree with. To me, it's about being willing to read both George Will and David Broder. It disturbs me that people can rely on either FOX News or the Huffington Post as their gospel for all things true in the world. It's pure close-mindedness to dismiss any source you don't agree with as biased or controlled by the forces of evil.

It is refreshing here when discussions are held, for they force us to really examine and clarify our own beliefs. I grow weary of the regurgitation and lack of analysis. Has anyone else noticed that these threads seem to start soon after a breathless report in the conservative media?

 

[trysail]

Yes.

Exactly so.

The ridicule of the educated was encouraged by the Bush administration. AND Fox News. Called "elitists".

When I was a kid I thought that term meant the snooty rich. I never knew that by working hard in grad school, me, a military brat, would wind up being called elitist. Wish I had the cash.

But it makes sense. When you first take over a country you eliminate the intellectuals, the college professors, the scientists. They are a threat to your dictatorship. Then you can easily control the flow of what information you wish to send out to everyone else.

Bush didn't do it with the military, but he did it very effectively with propaganda.

Science is a kinetic field, it's constantly changing and growing as more information becomes available. New information becomes available, of course, through study and experimentation, and hard work.

To ridicule evolving scientific theories shows a simplistic view of the world.

And I'm so damned tired of being insulted on this thread, and others, because of my views and because I believe in education.

There really is another forum many of us have gone to.

Not because it is elitist, not become it is populated only by liberals (gosh! That L word!), because, quite frankly, it isn't. There is a very nice variety of folk.

And when they post opinion, it is followed by proof. Facts are very important.

But you don't find many personal attacks. Those people are banned. And you don't find the same people starting multiple ridiculous threads every day bitching about the same old thing. Those are removed, too.

What has happened to Lit? Why is it okay to smear everyone with the same nasty brush if they do not share your views?

Damn it. And damn me, too, for bothering to try.

*sigh* At least try to understand the difference between a climatologist and a meteorologist.

According to NASA, the ten warmest years since 1880 have all happened since 1997. Using paleoclimatology, scientists at NOAA have concluded that the nineties and this decade are the warmest in the records for at least a thousand years. Read for yourself the methods they used to determine that.

The scientific consensus is that the planet is warming. The disagreements now are centered on how quickly it's happening and what will happen long term if it continues at its current rate. Well, except at Fox News...

"Aliens Cause Global Warming," a speech by the late Michael Crichton:

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html

"...There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period...

...I would remind you to notice where the claim of consensus is invoked. Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough... "



Dr. James E. Hansen

Affiliation: National Aeronautics and Space Administration

NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies
2880 Broadway
New York, NY 10025 USA

E-mail: James.E.Hansen@nasa.gov
Phone: (212) 678-5500

Education:

B.A., Physics and Mathematics, 1963, University of Iowa
M.S., Astronomy, 1965, University of Iowa
Ph.D., Physics, 1967, University of Iowa

 

[TE999]

I find it incredibly amusing when one poster says the sky is blue, the other replies it's pink and you're a right-wing fascist or a left-wing socialist.

I toss my little bon mots in these threads purely to stir up trouble and I've yet to be disappointed.

In actuality, all the hyperbole on these threads is so much vapor in the wind. No one is ever going to agree with the others point of view so it becomes not so much a debate per se, but an exchange of adolescent taunts. Furthermore, what happens in this world is out of our control anyway, so what difference does all this wrangling make?

This forum is called the Authors Hangout is it not? It might be refreshing to discuss writing and such instead of who's correct or incorrect in their socio-political beliefs. Just a thought.

Carry on.

 

[freshface]

"Aliens Cause Global Warming," a speech by the late Michael Crichton:

http://www.michaelcrichton.com/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html

"...There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period...

...I would remind you to notice where the claim of consensus is invoked. Consensus is invoked only in situations where the science is not solid enough... "


Dr. James E. Hansen

Affiliation: National Aeronautics and Space Administration

NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies
2880 Broadway
New York, NY 10025 USA

E-mail: James.E.Hansen@nasa.gov
Phone: (212) 678-5500

Education:

B.A., Physics and Mathematics, 1963, University of Iowa
M.S., Astronomy, 1965, University of Iowa
Ph.D., Physics, 1967, University of Iowa

You've posted this link several times without actually discussing anything in it. Yes, scientists have been wrong in the past. Yes, they will be wrong in the future. I could easily use this article to "prove" that scientists must be wrong about the age of the planet, since that's consensus and you can find some scientists that argue it was created 6,000 years ago. Certainly Michael Crichton is entitled to his opinion and his fiction works frequently included his distrust of science and technology. But again, so what? Pull something out of this 6,000 word speech, preferably more than a soundbite. How bout I start? He questions the bad effects of second hand smoke by arguing that there is no evidence that second hand smoke is bad for you. We'll ignore the studies that were published in the 1980s showing such things as the spouses and children of smokers had twice the risk of lung cancer as the spouses and children of non-smokers. He ignores it, so why shouldn't we. Since he made this speech, there's been a lot of evidence provided that second hand smoke is, in fact, bad for you, and using exactly the methods he claims to embrace. The patchwork of smoking bans across the country gave researchers controls in areas permitting indoor smoking that they could easily match with areas that did not. They've found conclusive evidence that heart attacks, asthma, and respiratory disease rates all decrease in areas that banned smoking in public places. But don't take my word for it. Look at the Google Scholar results for yourself. Just because it's consensus doesn't make it wrong. OK, your turn.

Did you perhaps have a point with Hansen? Your posting his degrees was really not helpful for advancing your argument. According to his bio, he's been working in climatology since the late 1960s and was one of the early scientists to start talking about global warming. I never said that a physicist couldn't know anything about climatology. I said that being a physicist did not automatically make someone competent in that area.

 

[cloudy]

.....

 

[Xelebes]

Even then, I don't agree with how you posit the money would be spent.

Imagine a homeless person who suddenly has $10,000 to spend.

He/she could rent an apartment, shower and bathe, buy new clothes, and suddenly become someone who could go to a job interview and not be ashamed.

How many people are homeless though? How many people are homeowners?

Stimulus packages, for maximum effect, should have us be buying capital goods not liquid goods as there is little tangible long-term effect of such an action. If all of us spent the money to only tread water, then that would not be a stimulus now would it?

To give examples of domestic capital goods that have tangible long-term benefits:

• A new car
• Home renovations
• Home down-payment
• Furniture & appliances

Things that have no long-term benefits:

• Food
• Rent
• Bills
• Toilet Paper

I will agree with you on that war is a waste of money as we are using money to essentially pay for things (bullets, tanks) which are as liquid as food. TARP is a bit dodgy, I need to be able to study it more to say whether or not it does have tangible long term benefits. As I understand it, it's a stop-measure to make sure that the banks are lending and not clawing back their lending, in order to prevent a deflationary cycle. It's an expensive move if only because he banking and investment system is so large - in the range of 60 - 100 trillion dollars in size with all the products involved.

Stimulus money towards building roads and other infrastructure projects is like spending money on a new car or on home renovations. It has long term benefits - you can get things from here to there more efficiently. I'm sure you can see a benefit in that. Of course we can agree that there might be such a thing as too much, but I implore you to find proof that such has been done.

 

[DesertPirate]

I find it incredibly amusing when one poster says the sky is blue, the other replies it's pink and you're a right-wing fascist or a left-wing socialist.

I toss my little bon mots in these threads purely to stir up trouble and I've yet to be disappointed.

In actuality, all the hyperbole on these threads is so much vapor in the wind. No one is ever going to agree with the others point of view so it becomes not so much a debate per se, but an exchange of adolescent taunts. Furthermore, what happens in this world is out of our control anyway, so what difference does all this wrangling make?

This forum is called the Authors Hangout is it not? It might be refreshing to discuss writing and such instead of who's correct or incorrect in their socio-political beliefs. Just a thought.

Carry on.

I think you are right.
All extremists are 100% wrong at all times.
Left, right, it's not a flat line, it's a circle, when you go to far one way, you are the same as the ones you disagree with.
Moderate centerists are at the top and morons at the bottm where they belong.