A good start but...

[Keroin]

I was happy to read about Bernie Madoff's 150 year jail sentence today but dismayed to learn that it is only he and one accountant that are being held legally responsible.

I'm tired of white collar criminals and the innocuous hand slaps they recieve. How about the SEC? They investigated Madoff's firm twice and gave him the green light. Give me a break. How deep did they really dig and/or who's pockets got lined to keep them on the surface?

Personally, I think a public flogging should accompany the 150 year sentence and there are a few other wealthy cheats who should be tied up there with him. Thoughts? Anyone like to volunteer for the position of Flogger?

Oh and this...

"The jailed Madoff already has taken a severe financial hit: Last week, a judge issued a preliminary $171 billion forfeiture order stripping Madoff of all his personal property, including real estate, investments and $80 million in assets Ruth Madoff had claimed were hers. The order left her with $2.5 million."

...pisses me off. 2.5 million? How about a warm coat and cab fare? I think that's fair recompense.

 

[jockdom]

I was happy to read about Bernie Madoff's 150 year jail sentence today but dismayed to learn that it is only he and one accountant that are being held legally responsible.

I'm tired of white collar criminals and the innocuous hand slaps they recieve. How about the SEC? They investigated Madoff's firm twice and gave him the green light. Give me a break. How deep did they really dig and/or who's pockets got lined to keep them on the surface?

Personally, I think a public flogging should accompany the 150 year sentence and there are a few other wealthy cheats who should be tied up there with him. Thoughts? Anyone like to volunteer for the position of Flogger?

Oh and this...

"The jailed Madoff already has taken a severe financial hit: Last week, a judge issued a preliminary $171 billion forfeiture order stripping Madoff of all his personal property, including real estate, investments and $80 million in assets Ruth Madoff had claimed were hers. The order left her with $2.5 million."

...pisses me off. 2.5 million? How about a warm coat and cab fare? I think that's fair recompense.

There was a good documentary on him on the bbc or chanel 4 last night and it implied that there was little chance of his family (Brother ,niece, wife ) not being in on the scam.

 

[jockdom]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00lk156/This_World_The_Madoff_Hustle/
Here it is, found it.

 

[DVS]

I was happy to read about Bernie Madoff's 150 year jail sentence today but dismayed to learn that it is only he and one accountant that are being held legally responsible.

I'm tired of white collar criminals and the innocuous hand slaps they recieve. How about the SEC? They investigated Madoff's firm twice and gave him the green light. Give me a break. How deep did they really dig and/or who's pockets got lined to keep them on the surface?

Personally, I think a public flogging should accompany the 150 year sentence and there are a few other wealthy cheats who should be tied up there with him. Thoughts? Anyone like to volunteer for the position of Flogger?

Oh and this...

"The jailed Madoff already has taken a severe financial hit: Last week, a judge issued a preliminary $171 billion forfeiture order stripping Madoff of all his personal property, including real estate, investments and $80 million in assets Ruth Madoff had claimed were hers. The order left her with $2.5 million."

...pisses me off. 2.5 million? How about a warm coat and cab fare? I think that's fair recompense.

Yes, I thought the same thing. Would she have had anything at all, if not for his scheme? Cab fare? How about a quick bus ride to somewhere hot, so we can save the cash on the coat?

And I'm sure the rest of his family was in on this. Why is it we can't ever catch these guys, when they pilfer off with good people's money? Something isn't right with the world when the smart crooks are using the law to keep their ill gotten gains.

 

[jockdom]

Yes, I thought the same thing. Would she have had anything at all, if not for his scheme? Cab fare? How about a quick bus ride to somewhere hot, so we can save the cash on the coat?

And I'm sure the rest of his family was in on this. Why is it we can't ever catch these guys, when they pilfer off with good people's money? Something isn't right with the world when the smart crooks are using the law to keep their ill gotten gains.

Wasn't he good pals with the financial regulators? There was people ringing alarm bells 10 years ago but the regulators brushed them off? Plus he probably had a few politicians in his pocket.

 

[DVS]

[/B]
Wasn't he good pals with the financial regulators? There was people ringing alarm bells 10 years ago but the regulators brushed them off? Plus he probably had a few politicians in his pocket.

I'm not much of an investment guy, but it does seem that there were people concerned about his financial group and the regulators said he was squeaky clean.

And when aren't there at least a few politicians involved in stuff like this?

 

[DVS]

I'm sorry, but the title to this thread keeps reminding me of a joke. The title is very close to the punch line.

What do you have when you've got a lawyer up to his chin in concrete?

 

[jockdom]

I'm sorry, but the title to this thread keeps reminding me of a joke. The title is very close to the punch line.

What do you have when you've got a lawyer up to his chin in concrete?

Pour some more on?

 

[DVS]

Pour some more on?

What do you have when you have a lawyer up to his chin in concrete? "A good start".

Another version has the punch line saying "Not enough concrete".

But, not all lawyers are bad.

 

[Keroin]

Yes, I thought the same thing. Would she have had anything at all, if not for his scheme? Cab fare? How about a quick bus ride to somewhere hot, so we can save the cash on the coat?

And I'm sure the rest of his family was in on this. Why is it we can't ever catch these guys, when they pilfer off with good people's money? Something isn't right with the world when the smart crooks are using the law to keep their ill gotten gains.

From a Vanity Fair Article about the Fairfield Greenwich Group, (a feeder fund for Madoff)...

"From 1992 to 2008 the SEC was called on eight times to investigate Madoff. But each time, as we now know, the agency came away with nothing. It even infamously ignored the detailed letter it received in 2005 from Boston-based investor Harry Markopolos titled, 'The World's Biggest Hedge Fund is a Fraud.'"

This is what floors me. Why isn't the SEC being investigated? How can anyone out there have any faith in that body anymore? And how about FGG, where's their culpability? Due diligence anyone?

Yeah, DVS, I agree...bus fare and no coat. Better yet, jail for the whole fricken family.

 

[intothewoods]

What do you have when you have a lawyer up to his chin in concrete? "A good start".

Another version has the punch line saying "Not enough concrete".

But, not all lawyers are bad.

I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.

 

[Homburg]

I personally know folks whose lives were hammered by Madoff's scam. That said, 2.5 mil down from 171+Bil is a LOT of money. Yeah, she's left with more money than most of us here, but odds are that it is tied up in assets. When you live the sort of lifestyle she does, 2.5mil won't get you far. She'll have trouble paying taxes on what she owns. And, honestly, most of that money is probably assets, not cash. If it is in real estate, she'll have a devil of a time moving it.

No, I'm not sympathetic with her, but I am looking at the money realistically and not feeling bad.

171,000,000,000
.........2,500,000

That would be the equivalent, for me, of bus fare and a coat. No, just bus fare.

As to the family, good luck proving it. Securities fraud is slicker than greased owl shit, and twice as hard to quantify. They got Bernie because they pretty much had the equivalent of video of him with his dick IN the mashed potatoes.

ETA: And, honestly, there is an issue of perspective here. Yeah, he fucked over a LOAD of people financially-speaking. But is what he did more serious than a rape? A murder? Is he going to serve that time in a Supermax, or in a Club Fed?

 

[Keroin]

I personally know folks whose lives were hammered by Madoff's scam. That said, 2.5 mil down from 171+Bil is a LOT of money. Yeah, she's left with more money than most of us here, but odds are that it is tied up in assets. When you live the sort of lifestyle she does, 2.5mil won't get you far. She'll have trouble paying taxes on what she owns. And, honestly, most of that money is probably assets, not cash. If it is in real estate, she'll have a devil of a time moving it.

No, I'm not sympathetic with her, but I am looking at the money realistically and not feeling bad.

171,000,000,000
.........2,500,000

That would be the equivalent, for me, of bus fare and a coat. No, just bus fare.

As to the family, good luck proving it. Securities fraud is slicker than greased owl shit, and twice as hard to quantify. They got Bernie because they pretty much had the equivalent of video of him with his dick IN the mashed potatoes.

ETA: And, honestly, there is an issue of perspective here. Yeah, he fucked over a LOAD of people financially-speaking. But is what he did more serious than a rape? A murder? Is he going to serve that time in a Supermax, or in a Club Fed?

Yes, perspective is important. I'd feel less ire if the people who'd been fleeced were all just a bunch of greedy socialites but they weren't. Not to mention the charitable organizations that were wiped off the map because of this man. I think the damage he's done to others is very much as despicable as rape, maybe even murder.

Yeah, he'll be sent to some white collar day spa to serve out his sentence, I'm sure.

I know, relatively speaking, 2.5 mil isn't much for Mrs. M but I really could care less. Seriously, how many of her husband's victims have been left penniless? If it means she has to move to Kansas and work as a greeter at WalMart, oh well. Or let her children take care of her - I'm sure they still have some of their ill-gotten gains kicking around.

 

[Betticus]

I'd like to see this whole thing steamroller into a slew of high profile criminal indictments against anyone involved who was in on it or helped to keep it quiet. To include the family members, employees, politicians, SEC, etc...

 

[Homburg]

I think the damage he's done to others is very much as despicable as rape, maybe even murder.

We will have to agree to disagree. As I said, I personally know people affected by this. They are nowhere near the emotional trauma that my friend Thad's wife underwent when he was murdered by his brother. And his brother got nowhere near 150 years in prison even with the Murder One charge.

Again, I'm not defending Madoff. I'm just of the opinion that people shrieking for his blood should take a step back. Penniless is not dead. Penniless is not even raped. Yes, he did damage to a greater number of folks, but that individual trauma was far less than crimes that earn less severe sentences.

150 years and $170bil in fines is pretty fucking heinous. He could have simply gotten off, or done some piddly little six month sentence like Martha Stewart.

 

[rida]

I'm in the financial world. And as far as we are geographically, we got effected as well.

Honestly what I find most annoying in the whole situation are actually two things: US regulator not doing their job on their own soil and at the same time riding their high horse and making the rest of the world jump over backward on their head so that they meet international standards (I'm all for anti-money laundering regulations, but don't assume that only the rest of the world are the bad guys ...) and greedy people either putting all their money or making other people put all their money in a single place (where is the single simpler rule of investment here? do not put all your eggs in the same basket because things can always go south and they will).

There are way more bad guys in this that only Madoff and his accountant.

And I agree with Homburg: fraud is an heinous crime. but there are far worse that go unpunished. and greed is, more often than not, your own fault.

 

[Keroin]

I'd like to see this whole thing steamroller into a slew of high profile criminal indictments against anyone involved who was in on it or helped to keep it quiet. To include the family members, employees, politicians, SEC, etc...

Exactly.

We will have to agree to disagree. As I said, I personally know people affected by this. They are nowhere near the emotional trauma that my friend Thad's wife underwent when he was murdered by his brother. And his brother got nowhere near 150 years in prison even with the Murder One charge.

Again, I'm not defending Madoff. I'm just of the opinion that people shrieking for his blood should take a step back. Penniless is not dead. Penniless is not even raped. Yes, he did damage to a greater number of folks, but that individual trauma was far less than crimes that earn less severe sentences.

150 years and $170bil in fines is pretty fucking heinous. He could have simply gotten off, or done some piddly little six month sentence like Martha Stewart.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the sentence he received but pissed that the blame is only being allotted to him when there are clearly many other guilty parties.

And I don't disagree with you that this fraud is not the same as murder. If you offered someone a choice between losing everything they own and losing a loved one, I'm sure they'd happily sacrifice material wealth. However, I do think we need to start viewing these kinds of crimes more seriously. The judge in this case stated his intention was to send a message and I'm all behind that. The Madoff's of the world might think twice if they knew the worst that could befall them was more than just the Martha Stewart treatment.

I'm in the financial world. And as far as we are geographically, we got effected as well.

Honestly what I find most annoying in the whole situation are actually two things: US regulator not doing their job on their own soil and at the same time riding their high horse and making the rest of the world jump over backward on their head so that they meet international standards (I'm all for anti-money laundering regulations, but don't assume that only the rest of the world are the bad guys ...) and greedy people either putting all their money or making other people put all their money in a single place (where is the single simpler rule of investment here? do not put all your eggs in the same basket because things can always go south and they will).

There are way more bad guys in this that only Madoff and his accountant.

And I agree with Homburg: fraud is an heinous crime. but there are far worse that go unpunished. and greed is, more often than not, your own fault.

Parts in bold - yes, this is a big part of what I'm ranting about.

Yes, greed was a factor in some cases here but not all. If I as an investor go to, say, FGG and put my money in with them, I do so because I believe they know the financial market better than I do. This isn't about me being greedy, it's about me being smart, or thinking I'm being smart, by hiring a professional to look after my money. Also, even of the motivation was greed, there are a lot of other folks who have been affected as well. I mentioned the charitable organizations that had to shut down post-Madoff but jobs were lost as well.

 

[Homburg]

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy with the sentence he received but pissed that the blame is only being allotted to him when there are clearly many other guilty parties.

And I don't disagree with you that this fraud is not the same as murder. If you offered someone a choice between losing everything they own and losing a loved one, I'm sure they'd happily sacrifice material wealth. However, I do think we need to start viewing these kinds of crimes more seriously. The judge in this case stated his intention was to send a message and I'm all behind that. The Madoff's of the world might think twice if they knew the worst that could befall them was more than just the Martha Stewart treatment.

That is the point I'm making. This was an historic sentence, plain and simple. Is it realistic to call for even more?

And, yes, dropping it all on two guys out of who knows how many is unrealistic, but can they get convictions on the rest?

 

[Keroin]

That is the point I'm making. This was an historic sentence, plain and simple. Is it realistic to call for even more?

And, yes, dropping it all on two guys out of who knows how many is unrealistic, but can they get convictions on the rest?

You realize, of course, my flogging and coat + bus fare comments are a tongue-in-cheek expression of my displeasure?

My question is, how hard did they try to go after the other guilty parties? I haven't heard very much about this but my guess is "not very". I know that Markopolos tried for years to get the SEC to listen to him and some reputable firms, such as Goldman Sachs and Credit Suisse, would not put him on their list of reputable broker dealers, so my gut is telling me that there was an odour of rat long before he came out of his hole.

 

[man_4_milf]

Sometimes these cases unfold through levels based on the investigation, info available etc. Others may feel the squeeze!

 

[rida]

Exactly.

Parts in bold - yes, this is a big part of what I'm ranting about.

Yes, greed was a factor in some cases here but not all. If I as an investor go to, say, FGG and put my money in with them, I do so because I believe they know the financial market better than I do. This isn't about me being greedy, it's about me being smart, or thinking I'm being smart, by hiring a professional to look after my money. Also, even of the motivation was greed, there are a lot of other folks who have been affected as well. I mentioned the charitable organizations that had to shut down post-Madoff but jobs were lost as well.

I'm in this line of business. A little bit of "greed" on the part of the investors is the reason why I have a job in the first place.

But my point about greed was that you should not let it blind you. And my job is to make sure that your greed and mine does not blind both of us.

So if you (generic you) have put all your assets into a single investment, and it turns out it was a Madoff feeder fund ... I would wonder if you had been naive or victim of a naive adviser or both. (the kind of returns displayed by the majority of feeder funds were actually not exorbitant nor outrageous).

As an aside, many many years ago I had to look into one of the most prominent feeder fund. Everything paperwork wise was stellar. Up to when they did not disclose their underling trading manager as it is a piece of information that due to US regulations they did not have to disclose as it was sufficient for us to know that it was SEC regulated ...

You realize, of course, my flogging and coat + bus fare comments are a tongue-in-cheek expression of my displeasure?

My question is, how hard did they try to go after the other guilty parties? I haven't heard very much about this but my guess is "not very". I know that Markopolos tried for years to get the SEC to listen to him and some reputable firms, such as Goldman Sachs and Credit Suisse, would not put him on their list of reputable broker dealers, so my gut is telling me that there was an odour of rat long before he came out of his hole.

And at the same time other institutions could not access enough details and had to "believe" the SEC Regulated status of their operation ...

 

[Keroin]

Woo Hoo!!! This just in from the AP...

"NEW YORK – A person familiar with the investigation into disgraced financier Bernard Madoff (MAY'-dawf) says at least 10 more people are likely to be charged by the time the probe is complete.

The person tells The Associated Press they will face federal charges over the next few months. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.

Madoff was sentenced Monday to 150 years in prison for a multibillion-dollar fraud that burned thousands of investors.

The person familiar with the probe wouldn't detail the likely charges against the others or say whether they would include Madoff's relatives or former employees.

The only other person charged in the case is Madoff's longtime accountant, who was accused of failing to make basic auditing checks and was arrested in March."

Looks like I ranted too soon. Or maybe they read my rant and knees started trembling?

*Keroin does back flips*

 

[DVS]

Woo Hoo!!! This just in from the AP...

"NEW YORK – A person familiar with the investigation into disgraced financier Bernard Madoff (MAY'-dawf) says at least 10 more people are likely to be charged by the time the probe is complete.

The person tells The Associated Press they will face federal charges over the next few months. The person spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing.

Madoff was sentenced Monday to 150 years in prison for a multibillion-dollar fraud that burned thousands of investors.

The person familiar with the probe wouldn't detail the likely charges against the others or say whether they would include Madoff's relatives or former employees.

The only other person charged in the case is Madoff's longtime accountant, who was accused of failing to make basic auditing checks and was arrested in March."

Looks like I ranted too soon. Or maybe they read my rant and knees started trembling?

*Keroin does back flips*

If this all pans out, that's great! It might not get the Madoff schemers, but at least people won't feel quite as bad, like they've been tossed aside, without any hope.

I also heard one story about some people who by no fault of their own, decided to get out of the deal long before it made a lot of money. They got out with some profit, but as far as they knew, it was just getting out with a tidy profit, and not getting greedy.

Now, they say the government is going after them, although they knew nothing of the Madoff scheme and had no connection to Madoff himself. Just because they made a small profit from their investment, they are seen as co-conspirators.

They said they had no idea the deal was crooked, and just decided to get out early. But, because they got out, instead of staying in to get "Madoffed", they said the government is trying to criminalize them, as if they were in on it. These are innocent people who would have lost everything too, but just because they didn't, are they part of the scheme?

 

[ThorkelGriersen]

If this all pans out, that's great! It might not get the Madoff schemers, but at least people won't feel quite as bad, like they've been tossed aside, without any hope.

I also heard one story about some people who by no fault of their own, decided to get out of the deal long before it made a lot of money. They got out with some profit, but as far as they knew, it was just getting out with a tidy profit, and not getting greedy.

Now, they say the government is going after them, although they knew nothing of the Madoff scheme and had no connection to Madoff himself. Just because they made a small profit from their investment, they are seen as co-conspirators.

They said they had no idea the deal was crooked, and just decided to get out early. But, because they got out, instead of staying in to get "Madoffed", they said the government is trying to criminalize them, as if they were in on it. These are innocent people who would have lost everything too, but just because they didn't, are they part of the scheme?

That's always the way it works. Years ago there was a Chevy dealer in Miami who had fantastic prices. Finally, other dealers lost so much business to him that they took a closer look. He was consistently selling cars for less than they were paying GM. They took their suspicions to the police. It turned out that all the cars were current models that had been stolen off the streets of NY, Boston, Philly, etc. He "preped" them to look like new cars. The people who bought were receiving "stolen goods" and lost both the cars and their money.

That's the way the law works -- always has. In such cases, if there is any evidence that you knew, then the charge is "accessory after the fact" ---a crime.

 

[DVS]

That's always the way it works. Years ago there was a Chevy dealer in Miami who had fantastic prices. Finally, other dealers lost so much business to him that they took a closer look. He was consistently selling cars for less than they were paying GM. They took their suspicions to the police. It turned out that all the cars were current models that had been stolen off the streets of NY, Boston, Philly, etc. He "preped" them to look like new cars. The people who bought were receiving "stolen goods" and lost both the cars and their money.

That's the way the law works -- always has. In such cases, if there is any evidence that you knew, then the charge is "accessory after the fact" ---a crime.

I understand that, but they didn't know it was a scam when they got out. They were just being frugal and not taking too big of a chance with their savings.

Actually, nobody know it was a scam except a few, until the story broke. I can see them losing, if they knew what they were doing. But, these people didn't know.