Is there a problem here? When does hate lead to killing.

Pure

Fiel a Verdad
Joined
Dec 20, 2001
Posts
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irate people exercize free speech; haters come in under the edges of the free speech umbrella--some of them talk of homicide; then there are the killers, the roeders, the vonn brunns, who were once just haters--now they are engaging in criminal acts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14rich.html?em
The Obama Haters’ Silent Enablers

By FRANK RICH
Published: June 13, 2009

WHEN a Fox News anchor, reacting to his own network’s surging e-mail traffic, warns urgently on-camera of a rise in hate-filled, “amped up” Americans who are “taking the extra step and getting the gun out,” maybe we should listen. He has better sources in that underground than most.

The anchor was Shepard Smith, speaking after Wednesday’s mayhem at the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. Unlike the bloviators at his network and elsewhere on cable, Smith is famous for his highly caffeinated news-reading, not any political agenda. But very occasionally — notably during Hurricane Katrina — he hits the Howard Beale mad-as-hell wall. [...]

What he reported was this: his e-mail from viewers had “become more and more frightening” in recent months, dating back to the election season. From Wednesday alone, he “could read a hundred” messages spewing “hate that’s not based in fact,” much of it about Barack Obama and some of it sharing the museum gunman’s canard that the president was not a naturally born citizen. These are Americans “out there in a scary place,” Smith said.

Then he brought up another recent gunman: “If you’re one who believes that abortion is murder, at what point do you go out and kill someone who’s performing abortions?” An answer, he said, was provided by Dr. George Tiller’s killer. He went on: “If you are one who believes these sorts of things about the president of the United States ...” He left the rest of that chilling sentence unsaid.

These are extraordinary words to hear on Fox. The network’s highest-rated star, Bill O’Reilly, had assailed Tiller, calling him “Tiller the baby killer” and likening him to the Nazis, on 29 of his shows before the doctor was murdered at his church in Kansas. O’Reilly was unrepentant, stating that only “pro-abortion zealots and Fox News haters” would link him to the crime. [...]

What is this fury about? In his scant 145 days in office, the new president has not remotely matched the Bush record in deficit creation. Nor has he repealed the right to bear arms or exacerbated the wars he inherited. He has tried more than his predecessor ever did to reach across the aisle. But none of that seems to matter. [...]

[...]well before the latest murderers struck — well before another “antigovernment” Obama hater went on a cop-killing rampage in Pittsburgh in April — there have been indications that this rage could spiral out of control.

This was evident during the campaign, when hotheads greeted Obama’s name with “Treason!” and “Terrorist!” at G.O.P. rallies. At first the McCain-Palin campaign fed the anger with accusations that Obama was “palling around with terrorists.” But later John McCain thought better of it and defended his opponent’s honor to a town-hall participant who vented her fears of the Democrats’ “Arab” candidate. Although two neo-Nazi skinheads were arrested in an assassination plot against Obama two weeks before Election Day, the fever broke after McCain exercised leadership.

That honeymoon, if it was one, is over. Conservatives have legitimate ideological beefs with Obama, rightly expressed in sharp language. But the invective in some quarters has unmistakably amped up. The writer Camille Paglia, a political independent and confessed talk-radio fan, detected a shift toward paranoia in the air waves by mid-May. When “the tone darkens toward a rhetoric of purgation and annihilation,” she observed in Salon, “there is reason for alarm.”

She cited a “joke” repeated by a Rush Limbaugh fill-in host, a talk-radio jock from Dallas of all places, about how “any U.S. soldier” who found himself with only two bullets in an elevator with Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Osama bin Laden would use both shots to assassinate Pelosi and then strangle Reid and bin Laden.

This homicide-saturated vituperation is endemic among mini-Limbaughs. Glenn Beck has dipped into O’Reilly’s Holocaust analogies to liken Obama’s policy on stem-cell research to the eugenics that led to “the final solution” and the quest for “a master race.” [...]


The question, Shepard Smith said on Fox last week, is “if there is really a way to put a hold on” those who might run amok. We’re not about to repeal the First or Second Amendments. Hard-core haters resolutely dismiss any “mainstream media” debunking of their conspiracy theories. The only voices that might penetrate their alternative reality — I emphasize might — belong to conservative leaders with the guts and clout to step up as McCain did last fall. Where are they? [...]
 
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i think that the US is at a very dangerous time. the economy and attendant jump in unemployment have more people feeling threatened and/or vulnerable than we've been recently--and the US doesn't have it as bad as a number of other nations.

ed
 
I find it interesting that according to you and others of your mind set, all of the threats to the peace and sovereignty of the United States emanate from the extreme Right and never the extreme Left. I would then presume that all of the Left's myriad causes are somehow just and noble no matter the level of violence or destruction.

Case in point would be the endless reams of type and bloviation about the murder of an abortion doctor and hardly a mention of the murder of an Army recruit by a home grown radical Muslim. Murder's murder, but obviously an abortion doctors life is more important than that of a young man willing to serve his country by defending it.

Just sayin'...
 
TE, do you have a link for that story? and i'm curious, how many fringe liberal terrorist groups are there?

ed
 
Speech should be no less free simply because there are idiots listening.
 
A character in one of my stories kills people because it reduces the carbon footprint of humanity on Nature.
 
TE, do you have a link for that story? and i'm curious, how many fringe liberal terrorist groups are there?

ed

Rather than I do your research for you, check on Google or Wikipedia for these subjects. Who knows, you may be enlightened...or not. :rolleyes:
 
how about, since you made the assertion, the burden of proof's on you. you don't have to pick it up, but understand that i'm not making your argument for you. that's on you.

interesting how you didn't answer the question.

ed
 
how about, since you made the assertion, the burden of proof's on you. you don't have to pick it up, but understand that i'm not making your argument for you. that's on you.

interesting how you didn't answer the question.

ed

I answered it how I felt it deserved to be answered. It's my observation, take it or leave it. *shrug*
 
TE quoth:
hardly a mention of the murder of an army recruit by a home grown radical muslim.
i'm assuming you're speaking of this instance. this does not of course in any way, shape or form support your original statement. to be clear, your original assertion was:

"i find it interesting that according to you and others of your mind set, all of the threats to the peace and sovereignty of the united states emanate from the extreme right and never the extreme left. i would then presume that all of the left's myriad causes are somehow just and noble no matter the level of violence or destruction.

case in point would be the endless reams of type and bloviation about the murder of an abortion doctor and hardly a mention of the murder of an army recruit by a home grown radical muslim. murder's murder, but obviously an abortion doctors life is more important than that of a young man willing to serve his country by defending it."

radical religious terrorism is not left, TE. or are you suggesting that the guy that killed tiller was also politically left?

ed
 
From Wednesday alone, he “could read a hundred” messages spewing “hate that’s not based in fact,” much of it about Barack Obama and some of it sharing the museum gunman’s canard that the president was not a naturally born citizen. These are Americans “out there in a scary place,” Smith said.
Here is something that incessantly bothers me. One part of my family landed in Plymouth, on a ship or two (have to ask my aunt again) after the Mayflower. That part of the family were German Mennonites (me thinks) escaping religious persecution in Europe. Part of our family was part of North America even before there were Americans. After that, part of my family built America and part of my family went to building Canada. We unnaturally planted ourselves here, got rid of most of those pesky and uncivilized Natives, and then brought our own slaves from Africa.

How can anyone in North America call themselves a natural born citizen when we know that the only natural born citizen in America is native?
 
an excellent point, charley. i think a lot of people get hung up on the "natural-born" requirement for the presidency, when IMV, it's pretty clear that was included to prevent a british national from becoming the president of the then-nascent US.

ed
 
note to te

Case in point would be the endless reams of type and bloviation about the murder of an abortion doctor and hardly a mention of the murder of an Army recruit by a home grown radical Muslim.


i know, te, good point. courtesy the right wing bloggers. it was a dastardly act.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gQACNshVFYt6M9CDykHq6DKqPhiwD98I5AM81


I find it interesting that according to you and others of your mind set, all of the threats to the peace and sovereignty of the United States emanate from the extreme Right and never the extreme Left.


i see no reason to call muslim jihadists, 'extreme left' (they seem to want a fascistic theocracy); nor is there any reason to attribute this action to the american left. can you cite a single leftist newspaper, radio, or blog, in the last 20 years that's called for killing army personnel. or labelled them killers.

the point of the thread is to draw attention to this violent element emerging in the US. it seems mostly or entirely 'right' or (self said) "Christian." as proof, note their emergence, as Rich points out, with the election of Obama.
 
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how about, since you made the assertion, the burden of proof's on you. you don't have to pick it up, but understand that i'm not making your argument for you. that's on you.

interesting how you didn't answer the question.

ed

Fringe liberal terrorist groups.

First, the definition of terrorism:
–noun
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, esp. for political purposes.
2. the state of fear and submission produced by terrorism or terrorization.
3. a terroristic method of governing or of resisting a government.

Liberal groups who can be defined as terrorist groups:

1) E.L.F. Environmental Liberation Foundation - Has used bombings and arson in protest of such things as housing projects.

2) A.L.F. Animal Liberation Front - Has used bombings, arson, and death threats in protest of anything that causes harm to an animal.

3) Greenpeace - Used the ship "Rainbow Warrior" to attempt collisions with US Naval vessels, causing severe injuries to Navy sailors.

4) Sea Shepherds - Use the ship "Steve Irwin" to collide with Japanese ships in protest of whaling. Alleged to have so far caused 1 death.
 
irate people exercize free speech; haters come in under the edges of the free speech umbrella--some of them talk of homicide; then there are the killers, the roeders, the vonn brunns, who were once just haters--now they are engaging in criminal acts.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/14/opinion/14rich.html?em
The Obama Haters’ Silent Enablers

By FRANK RICH
Published: June 13, 2009

It's a bit difficult responding to a piece like that OpEd article you point out, Pure. It's a valid point that hate-speech providers aren't much help in the overall scheme of things. I suppose hate speech draws together disaffected people into a mob, and it works on both sides of the political spectrum.

I had to work at that point, though. Frank Rich's problem is that of an amateur salesman or a lover who can't decide whether to make a point or get even during an argument; he doesn't know when to shut up.

He could have made a valid point that almost everyone could agree with. Instead, he decided to continue on and make it Bush supporters vs. Obama supporters, right vs. left, Republicans vs. Democrats. Finally, he made reference to the Department of Homeland Security document, in most favorable terms, which was the same one that that infuriated anyone in the military, or with sons and daughters in the military, the document that suggested that returning veterans should be scrutinized carefully for terrorist leanings.

All in all...I'm left thinking this guy's not much worth listening to - too much background noise.

i think that the US is at a very dangerous time. the economy and attendant jump in unemployment have more people feeling threatened and/or vulnerable than we've been recently--and the US doesn't have it as bad as a number of other nations.

Very true. I want to add that those problems which you point out also can gather up people on BOTH sides of center and turn them into that mob I just mentioned to Pure.
 
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wow!

that's your best shot on lefty violence, jag! i love it.

fine, lets denounce any such acts leading to injury or deaths.

now, let's focus on who's causing deaths in the last few months.

as to: 4) Sea Shepherds - Use the ship "Steve Irwin" to collide with Japanese ships in protest of whaling. Alleged to have so far caused 1 death.

i believe you cannot have seen, in pictures, the two ships involved: the little unarmed protest vessel, which throws 'stink bombs;' and the several times larger japanese fishing vessel, armed with water cannons, and throwing bits of metal at the protesters.

http://images.smh.com.au/ftsmh/ffxi...f_the_Yushin_Maru_No_2_wideweb__470x313,2.jpg

http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ms-steve-irwin.jpg

the steve irwin is 49 meters long. i don't have a number for the yoshin maru no 1.


the fishing vessel, too, while claiming it's conducting 'research', is acting illegally in harvesting protected whales.

===
jag's list:

1) E.L.F. Environmental Liberation Foundation - Has used bombings and arson in protest of such things as housing projects.

2) A.L.F. Animal Liberation Front - Has used bombings, arson, and death threats in protest of anything that causes harm to an animal.

3) Greenpeace - Used the ship "Rainbow Warrior" to attempt collisions with US Naval vessels, causing severe injuries to Navy sailors.

4) Sea Shepherds - Use the ship "Steve Irwin" to collide with Japanese ships in protest of whaling. Alleged to have so far caused 1 death.
 
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jagfarlane: 4 terrorist groups who total for one death--and note that my point was to rebut TE's assertion about threats to american peace and sovereignty. c'mon, you can't do any better than that?

leto degeneres quoth:
very true. i want to add that those problems which you point out also can gather up people on both sides of center and turn them into that mob i just mentioned to pure.
that's entirely valid. i think the entire "obama haters suck" angle to the op-ed sucks, to be honest. that they may indeed hate the president is merely symptomatic of something else that predates january 20 of this year.

ed
 
note on the "steve irwin"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MY_Robert_Hunter

the wiki article tells of several skirmishes, no death is mentioned.

cursory google search failed to find this alleged incident.

there is a video of one encounter with the kaiko maru

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2382106/sea_shepherd_ship_steve_irwin_confronts_whalers_kaiko_maru/


--
so, silver,

jagfarlane [says]: 4 terrorist groups who total for one death--

jag did say 'alleged', but supplied no evidence of any such incident.

any deaths inflicted by ANY protesters are to be condemned.
 
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ah, i beg your pardon: evidently, i read jag's post too quickly.

but he did post it as a response to my questioning TE's assertion that left and right are equally at fault. at least in US politics, that simply isn't the case. i'm not trying to do any kind of ethical algebra here: i'm simply talking about something else. deaths caused by protesters are wrong and should be condemned: i agree.

ed
 
So, if we were to add immigrant-bashing, gay-bashing, and the dragging of black dudes behind pickup trucks (a favorite Texas pastime) into the Right column, and Earth First! into the Left column, who wins on the death and mayhem scale?

(A personal note: I would encourage anyone interested in being around naked women to attend any left wing environmental get-together, especially if it's out in the woods and there is a hot springs or lake/river nearby.)
 
well, i was gonna be content with allowing that to remain unsaid, but hey, what do i know? :>

ed
 
I find it interesting that according to you and others of your mind set, all of the threats to the peace and sovereignty of the United States emanate from the extreme Right and never the extreme Left. I would then presume that all of the Left's myriad causes are somehow just and noble no matter the level of violence or destruction.

Case in point would be the endless reams of type and bloviation about the murder of an abortion doctor and hardly a mention of the murder of an Army recruit by a home grown radical Muslim. Murder's murder, but obviously an abortion doctors life is more important than that of a young man willing to serve his country by defending it.

Just sayin'...
Radical Salafists are conservatives, most Muslims are. And such stories are not promoted in order to avoid the usual Crackhead Cracker backlash that usually gets an innocent Sikh or a Swami killed.
 
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