Euro swings right, USA swings left?

[amicus]

I tried to make sense of Lauren's Euro Elections thread and came away convinced the entire thread is an apology for the perception that Euro Nations, excluding Oggbashan and England who claim not to be from Europe, are becoming tired of Nanny State Socialism and in the recent election voted more right than wrong)).

In the meantime, back at the ranch, US politicians seem hell bent to follow the thirty year failure of Democratic Socialism in Europe by plunging ahead with Nationalization of the Finance and Auto Industry and are taking aim on the Socialized Medicine front.

First of all, our Euro posters will deny that the 'right' can be compared in any way to the American Conservative right, they prefer to think of the 'right' as Nazi's & Fascists, there being no rational definition of a free market economy and individual rights in the European mindset.

Quite the same manner that American Socialists refer to the 'right wing', as fundamentalists, crazy Christians who want a theocracy, again leaving no place for the basic American values party that promotes a free market, open trade, low taxes and minimal Federal intervention with rights granted the States and the Individual.

Suffice it to say, there will be no agreement between anyone, but the fact of the Euro vote is clear; they are swinging away from the Left, for what ever purpose and/or outcome.

http://www.nasdaq.com/aspx/stock-ma...venian-center-right-opposition-tops-euro-vote

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1244404922.61

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/06/09/Region_Votes_for_Euro_Parliament/

http://ktar.com/index.php?nid=46&sid=1170630

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/elections/euro/09/flash/html/eu.stm

Amicus

 

[DesertPirate]

There might still be some smart people on this planet, but I have my doubts.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Actually, if you were to look at all the elected members of parliament, you'd see that 351 of them are clearly on the left side of the political spectrum (161 from the European Socialists, 83 from the Liberal Democrats, 52 from the Greens, 33 from the United Left and 22 from non-affiliated socialist parties). The moderate right, which as you pointed out is as far from the American right as the left is, does include the largest single group, the European Popular Party, with 265 MPs, plus 26 from the UK Conservatives and a few more independents. That's hardly a turn to the right, unless you have a different way of looking at these numbers. Do you?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

AMICUS

My idea of RIGHT vs LEFT is Totalitarian Slavery vs Anarchistic Chaos; liberals and conservatives hold the middle ground.

Whats going on in America is the wholesale theft of our national assets by the elites. Elites from both political parties are stealing whatever isnt on fire, to replenish what they pissed away on real estate and Wall Street and bad loans.

I became convinced of this last night as I watched a program about how GM and CHRYSLER decide to close dealers. In many cases theyre closing the best performing dealers to help politically connected dealers who cant sell vehicles to local government when budgets are in trouble because of collapsing tax revenues.

 

[amicus]

Lauren Hynde
Hitched

~~~


Dear Lauren...they describe Portugal as outright Communist party run, the headlines of four news channels and several newspapers had banner headlines, Euro swings right. All my information is second hand, I ain't there and am not privy to upper echelon information, but just from the dozen or so links I browsed, it does appear that 'most' European Nations, including England, have turned away from a Socialist direction in admittedly small steps, but still a change from the continual drift to the left.

Of course, being an advocate of free markets and free peoples and totally opposed to Marxism of any flavor, I take this as a teaspoon full of good news, it does not surprise me that you would find a way to confront it.

Amicus

 

[oggbashan]

Political terms used in the US do not equate to political terms used in Europe.

Even within Europe "left" and "right" do not have common definitions between countries. What might be left of centre in one country could easily be right of centre in another. French Communists, Italian Communists, Portuguese Communists are not the same animal as the Communist Party in the former USSR and none of them are anything like the communists formerly seen as a threat by Senator McCarthy in the US.

Og

 

[Handley_Page]

Political terms used in the US do not equate to political terms used in Europe.

Even within Europe "left" and "right" do not have common definitions between countries. What might be left of centre in one country could easily be right of centre in another. French Communists, Italian Communists, Portuguese Communists are not the same animal as the Communist Party in the former USSR and none of them are anything like the communists formerly seen as a threat by Senator McCarthy in the US.

Og

Well said, Og.

JBJ has too hard an idea on what Right & Left are, I think.

 

[amicus]

I agree Ogg, although my reasoning will not please you or anyone of a persuasion left of center, whatever that 'center' may be.

The same dilemma exists within the political elite in the United States but the average voter is satisfied with Democrat being Left and Republican being Right, and since we do not have a multiplicity of parties in our system, one can understand the difficulty in European matters.

The insidious insinuation that glares forth from Euro reports is that the 'far right' are the Nazi's, the Anti-Semetists are somehow equated with the American Right which is an 'economic' right wing advocating free markets and individual freedoms.

It is disturbing, equating today's shooting at the Holocaust Museum and the murder of an Abortion doctor recently, that political pressures in the US are bringing out the unbalanced fringe in both extremes. Not a good sign for the future I would venture...

Amicus

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Well said, Og.

JBJ has too hard an idea on what Right & Left are, I think.

You must think I dream my shit up or pluck it from my fat ass.

If you knew shit about political science then you'd know that the spectrum runs from totalitarians on one end...to...anarchists on the other. Totalitarians want to control everything & everybody, and anarchists are undisciplined bomb throwers who do their own thang.

Politics is all about who gets to decide.

 

[xssve]

There might still be some smart people on this planet, but I have my doubts.

Right, peace and prosperity just gets boring after a while.

 

[amicus]

]Right, peace and prosperity just gets boring after a while[/I].

~~~

Actually that 'absolute' statement holds true only for the Bohemians in our society who are never long satisfied with anything and always seek diversions from the normative, Right, Peace & Prosperity.

Amicus....

 

[Dragonlipz]

There might still be some smart people on this planet, but I have my doubts.

From the mouth of babes.......

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Dear Lauren...they describe Portugal as outright Communist party run, the headlines of four news channels and several newspapers had banner headlines, Euro swings right. All my information is second hand, I ain't there and am not privy to upper echelon information, but just from the dozen or so links I browsed, it does appear that 'most' European Nations, including England, have turned away from a Socialist direction in admittedly small steps, but still a change from the continual drift to the left.

Of course, being an advocate of free markets and free peoples and totally opposed to Marxism of any flavor, I take this as a teaspoon full of good news, it does not surprise me that you would find a way to confront it.

Amicus

Who are "they"?

The Communist Party has never had more than 10-12% of the expressed votes on any election of any sort in Portugal, and it has never even been a part of any coalition government.

So, who are "they"?

I gave you the numbers of the European Parliament elections. The "right", including extremists, has around 330 MPs. The "left" has around 350. You say you get all information second hand, and your information tells you to think "Euro Swings Right". Well, look at the numbers and think for your self. Euro swings right? The European People's Party is the largest group in the Parliament, with 265 MPs. It is "the right". This is the European People's Party manifesto for the 2009 elections:

· Creation of new jobs. Continuing reforms and investment in education, lifelong learning and employment in order to create opportunities for everyone.
· Protectionism must be averted. Fiscal and monetary policies must be coordinated.
· Increasing transparency and surveillance on financial markets.
· Making Europe the market leader in green technology.
· Increasing the share of renewable energy to at least 20% of the energy mix by 2020.
· Family-friendly flexibility for working parents. Better childcare and housing must be provided, family-friendly fiscal policies introduced, and parental leave should be encouraged.
· Europe should find a strategy to attract skilled workers from the rest of the world to make Europe’s economy more competitive, more dynamic and more knowledge driven.

This is a social-democracy manifesto. This is the Europe's right. Is this what you are talking about? It this what "they" are talking about?

Who are "they"?

PS: I voted for "the right".

 

[oggbashan]

To summarise Lauren's post above for those who are convinced that there are parallels between politics in the US and Europe:

Most of Europe's "right" are to the left of most of the US's Democrats.

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OGG

You dont get over to France, often, do you?

 

[oggbashan]

OGG

You dont get over to France, often, do you?

Not too often. I was there three weeks ago. I'll be there next month, meeting the local Communist administration...

Og

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

OGG

Jeez, everyone in France is communist and queer, and God never made any nation more conservative.

 

[Liar]

If I've read the election result right, Europe moved to the center. Less seats to the outright socialist group, and less seats to the rigid social conservatives on the far-ish right. More to the centrist labor-orented and centrist libertarian-oriented groups. (I include British conservatives there although they don't accept official group affiliation).

And even a little less fringe yahoos. Although we in Sweden contributed with one ths year. But he's pretty harmless.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

If I've read the election result right, Europe moved to the center. Less seats to the outright socialist group, and less seats to the rigid social conservatives on the far-ish right. More to the centrist labor-orented and centrist libertarian-oriented groups. (I include British conservatives there although they don't accept official group affiliation).

And even a little less fringe yahoos. Although we in Sweden contributed with one ths year. But he's pretty harmless.

This term, the overall number of MPs is smaller than previously, because of the reorganization that followed the entry of the latest member states. I noticed that all party groups decreased in number compared to the last parliament, except for the Greens, which increased considerably (up from 43 to 52, in a parliament with 20 less seats).

 

[Liar]

Yah. Now my head hurts.

The Greens are a bit ragtag. lefites on some issues, downright libertarian on others, and probably all over the place if you take all the different European movements and tag them together in the parlament.

 

[oggbashan]

Yah. Now my head hurts.

The Greens are a bit ragtag. lefites on some issues, downright libertarian on others, and probably all over the place if you take all the different European movements and tag them together in the parlament.

Our UK Greens don't always agree with other European Greens perhaps because our main parties all have a green-tinged agenda.

Og

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Our UK Greens don't always agree with other European Greens perhaps because our main parties all have a green-tinged agenda.

Og

But they do consider themselves a part of the European Greens-EFA group, though. There are three additional Green MPs, from Sweden (Left Party) and Finland (Left Alliance) that align themselves with the United Left instead of the Euro Greens. Over here, we call them watermelon parties: green on the outside, red on the inside.

 

[amicus]

]Who are "they"?

The Communist Party has never had more than 10-12% of the expressed votes on any election of any sort in Portugal, and it has never even been a part of any coalition government.

So, who are "they"?

I gave you the numbers of the European Parliament elections. The "right", including extremists, has around 330 MPs. The "left" has around 350. You say you get all information second hand, and your information tells you to think "Euro Swings Right". Well, look at the numbers and think for your self. Euro swings right? The European People's Party is the largest group in the Parliament, with 265 MPs. It is "the right". This is the European People's Party manifesto for the 2009 elections:

· Creation of new jobs. Continuing reforms and investment in education, lifelong learning and employment in order to create opportunities for everyone.
· Protectionism must be averted. Fiscal and monetary policies must be coordinated.
· Increasing transparency and surveillance on financial markets.
· Making Europe the market leader in green technology.
· Increasing the share of renewable energy to at least 20% of the energy mix by 2020.
· Family-friendly flexibility for working parents. Better childcare and housing must be provided, family-friendly fiscal policies introduced, and parental leave should be encouraged.
· Europe should find a strategy to attract skilled workers from the rest of the world to make Europe’s economy more competitive, more dynamic and more knowledge driven.

This is a social-democracy manifesto. This is the Europe's right. Is this what you are talking about? It this what "they" are talking about?

Who are "they"?

PS: I voted for "the right"[/I].

~~~

If I may move your statement from one of ideology to one of ethics and morals, which provide the basis for statesmanship or the more banal political, let me list, one by one your manifesto or whoever claims authorship:

· Creation of new jobs.

"Jobs" are created by the investment of capital resources and government produces no capital and no resources other than that which they confiscate, tax, 'steal' from those who produce. The creation of 'jobs' is a function of the free market and not government.

Continuing reforms and investment in education, lifelong learning and employment in order to create opportunities for everyone.

Education is an individual, personal event. As statistic after statistic will show, 'education' does not depend upon the number of teachers, the pay scale of teachers, the educational equipment provided or the amount of money invested. 'Lifelong learning', is a matter of choice, not force or imposition or even opportunity, for those who wish to continue their education will do so. And, 'opportunities', are again, a personal, individual choice to pursue and take advantage of opportunities created by the free market, not by government as government produces nothing.

· Protectionism must be averted.

'Protectionism', is a plank in totalitarian governments only as free markets provide competition and a base of producers and consumers based on supply and demand. Protectionism is an essential ingredient of any 'command society', to maintain stability as the free market is totally unpredictable as it relies upon the whim of the 'buyer', you, to choose between, for example, Microsoft or Mackintosh.

Fiscal and monetary policies must be coordinated.

'Fiscal and monetary policies', must be a function of the market place that allows capital investment to seek the level of highest return, successful enterprise and return, unfettered by government intervention for social purposes. Otherwise, and you know the examples as well as I do, when 'socially oriented' economies begin to fail, it is because government chose the wrong economic path to follow, which is inevitable as bureaucrats are 'bean counters' and not industrial executives pursuing a profit motive.

· Increasing transparency and surveillance on financial markets.

Secrecy and privacy are essential for true innovations in all fields, especially financial matters are concerned. If your goal is total mediocrity and total safety with no future, then yes, have your Gestapho surveil every transaction.

· Making Europe the market leader in green technology.

'Green technology', better defined as 'non profit', and even better defined as, 'subsidized' by the general taxation of the public is bringing Europe to a financial crisis as the confiscation of productive wealth to finance 'green dreams', is fast leading each nation into insolvency and eventually bankruptcy, depression and revolution.

· Increasing the share of renewable energy to at least 20% of the energy mix by 2020.

Renewable energy is a function of the market place, not of government or social pressure. When it was time for the horse and buggy to be replaced by the internal combustion engine, it happened, and it happened without government assistance; so too will the transition from fossil fuels to nuclear, solar or wind or something not yet invented. The attempts to 'force' any percentage of renewable energy on a population will decrease the standard of living of that population to a poverty level for a social agenda.

· Family-friendly flexibility for working parents. Better childcare and housing must be provided, family-friendly fiscal policies introduced, and parental leave should be encouraged.

Paid for by whom? Provided by whom? This is a socialist, feminist utopian dream that can never be fulfilled because it requires the confiscation of productivity from those who do not require those services to provide for those who do. The old and very sad maxim, 'from those who have, to those who have not', sad and sick and depraved.

· Europe should find a strategy to attract skilled workers from the rest of the world to make Europe’s economy more competitive, more dynamic and more knowledge driven.

Europe is importing unskilled laborers as the 'brain drain' continues of educated, capable people migrate to the United States where they have a chance to pursue their own personal goals and aspirations instead of some sick mediocre, 'one for all, all for one, for the greater good' syrupy passive dream of those with no potential. Europe, each and every European nation, is importing migrants to increase their population as Europeans are reproducing at less than replacement numbers and if they do not import virtual slaves to support the social entitlement programs, will soon starve.

Dear Lauren Hynde...I do not refute you personally, I know nothing of you, but I did take the time to refute each assertion of your, 'manifesto', to illustrate just how sad and foolish this particular Utopian dream really is.

If you will take the time to realize that every plank of your manifesto requires the use of force to take from those who have earned and redistribute those earnings for a pre-determined social goal, you will realize that this is an immoral and unethical and inhuman plan to enslave any population that submits to this manifesto.

Amicus

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Dear Lauren Hynde...I do not refute you personally, I know nothing of you, but I did take the time to refute each assertion of your, 'manifesto', to illustrate just how sad and foolish this particular Utopian dream really is.

If you will take the time to realize that every plank of your manifesto requires the use of force to take from those who have earned and redistribute those earnings for a pre-determined social goal, you will realize that this is an immoral and unethical and inhuman plan to enslave any population that submits to this manifesto.

Amicus

This is so hilarious, Amicus. That wasn't my manifesto. It is the European People's Party manifesto. You know, the right that you're told to think Europe is swinging towards.

 

[amicus]

ah, a quick response, 2am here, 10am there, you are alert early, m'dear....I also noted that the European 'right' is to the left of the American Democrats, both quasi-socialist by definition.

Thus, be not so quick to crow victory, you need to adjust to the playing field before you try for a goal.

ami