Tell Me About Harvard

[trysail]

TRYSAIL

How many non-Ivy Leaguers do you estimate there are on Wall Street and in Washington? One percent, two?

JBJ,

You seriously underestimate the diversity of the maggots drawn to Sodom and Gomorrah.

I'm amazed that you ( of all people ) succumbed to the misimpression created out of whole cloth by the morons of the fourth estate. Just as "man bites dog" is favored, so also the media never fails to mention that Mr./Ms. WorldSaver attended Columbia/Brown/Cornell/Penn. On the other hand, if Mr./Ms. WorldSaver attended Bowdoin/University of Minnesota/University of Utah/Amherst/Middlebury/Union/Williams/Bates/Hamilton/Colgate/Texas A&M/University of Arizona/UGa/UVa/West Virginia University/University of Massachusetts/SUNY-Albany/Goucher/Denison/Wesleyan, the media almost always fails to mention it. Thus, the myth was created and, thus, the myth is perpetuated.

Thirty or more years ago, it was true that Wall Street was primarily populated by "gentlemen." That world is dead and gone (unfortunately, I might add). Others will no doubt object to that sentiment— it is, however, an indisputable fact that there was far less thievery and fraud.

Think of all the bright young things who have been seduced by watching West Wing. Think of all the would-be Gordon Gekkos who were seduced by tales of vast easy money. Think of all the scumballs drawn to the cesspool on the Potomac. Think Jack Abramoff. Think Huey Long. Think Lyndon Johnson. Think Gerry Cassidy. The b'hoys at Salomon Bros. and Bear were ( for the most part ) well-dressed streetfighters ( in other words— thugs ).

 

[WRJames]

My experiences with Harvard are mostly negative.

I visited Harvard when I was looking at colleges. It was the only place that didn't fall all over itself with excitement. I never even applied there. I figured why go to some place that doesn't want you?

I did attend one of the other Ivy League schools, and I went up to Harvard on several occassions -- mostly for soccer games. I remember them mainly for having the dingiest and dirteist lockers of any of the schools we visited.

I taught at MIT for a couple of years. In Boston, MIT and Harvard are the big two, with Brandeis sort of a respectable poor relation. The rest of the schools are dogshit, as far as the big boys are concerned. Well, Wellesley, where my wife was teaching, was sort of okay. I remember the Harvard crowd as being incredibly pompous, even worse than the MIT folks.

My wife was at leave at Harvard for a year. It was a strange experience for her. There was one aging professor who used to trail her around the library.

This guy was convinced that women were not capable of doing mathematics. She thought he was afraid she was going to doodle in the journals. I think he was more likely just perving her.

One of the most prominent mathematicians in her field was at Harvard, and we were invited to his retirement dinner at the Harvard club. This institution was about as dingy as the lockers I remembered from my undergraduate days. As change would have it, we and another couple we went to grad school with wound up sitting at the same table as this professor. We all had a little too much wine, and he starting to explain why women were geneticially incapable of rational activities. The two ladies spent the rest of the evening enlightening him.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

We all had a little too much wine, and he starting to explain why women were geneticially incapable of rational activities. The two ladies spent the rest of the evening enlightening him.

Where do those morons get that stuff? I still remember an elementary school teacher telling me that I will "never be good at math because I am left-handed, but that was okay because I'm creative." I may not be a mathematician, but I had up through calculus in high school and tutored algebra in college. Don't you just love how people try to put others into a box on which they slap a bunch of useless, nonsense labels?

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

They didnt lie. Women are inept with rationality. Manipulating numbers isnt the same thing as rationality. Comparing the two is like comparing a gerbil with a lion.

Its like comparing a crossword puzzle solver with Shakespeare. Each gets the words right, but they arent nearly the same.

 

[jomar]

A Harvard pedigree can help, but you also have to consider its potential to harm.

If you dont get a job in Washington or Wall Street you then have to play in the minor leagues where a Harvard pedigree may be a threat to everyone OR your employer will think youre a temp.

If you want a shot at wealth & glory, go to Harvard.
If you wanna learn your trade, go to the school that has the best reputation for your specialty.
If you wanna be a gentleman or lady, go to college anywhere.

Plus, big schools aren't for everyone. By a longshot.

Check out the book Harvard Schmarvard - reviews a lot of smaller, second tier schools that are highly rated.

 

[JagFarlane]

The advice my father gave me when I started looking at universities went through my mind when I read this. He said, "It matters what school you graduate from - the name it has acquired."

He's right, it does. I went to a school that had a name for itself in academics (two chairs of excellence), and I didn't know a single person who didn't have a job waiting for them after graduation.

Harvard has that name.

Completely agreed with this. Same thing goes for my father with NorthEastern University, and honestly, I experienced the same when I was debating going back to college or the workforce, first question I'd get from a headhunter "Did you really graduate from NNPTC? Yes? Good."

Thank you, guys, for your info. You make some good points. The name-recognition is a key selling point. I explained to her yesterday that all else being equal, if an employer considers 2 people to hire and one graduated from Harvard and the other graduated from a school with random initials, the one from Harvard definitely has an edge.

But, BFW, you have a point too. There are many reputable schools. Unfortunately, I can't afford for my daughter to pay many application fees. Financial aid is going to be crucial. It kinda sucks that we may not know until February if she gets either of the National Merit Scholarships that she is in the running for.

The name of the school is important yes, but location, and comfort for her are very important as well. If she is uncomfortable with the location, the school, or the atmosphere, it can affect her grades and study habits.

Have you checked out fastweb.com? They're a free site with a database of 1.3 million scholarships. Last I was there [lil while ago I admit], they ask a variety of questions to narrow down the scholarships that she could be eligible for, and include how to apply.

On a final thought, what is her perception of community college? Quite a few of them nowadays have agreements that make transferring to in-state schools a breeze.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

The name of the school is important yes, but location, and comfort for her are very important as well. If she is uncomfortable with the location, the school, or the atmosphere, it can affect her grades and study habits.

Have you checked out fastweb.com? They're a free site with a database of 1.3 million scholarships. Last I was there [lil while ago I admit], they ask a variety of questions to narrow down the scholarships that she could be eligible for, and include how to apply.

On a final thought, what is her perception of community college? Quite a few of them nowadays have agreements that make transferring to in-state schools a breeze.

I did suggest community college, because there is a campus of Harrisburg Area Community College literally a few blocks from my house. I thought it would be an easy transition for her. However, she is deadset against going to a community college. I know she is anxious to get out of our small city. She's much different than I am in that regard. I would have never considered going to such a large school, especially now with my anxiety problems. For her, I think she would see it as a plus. I know it's going to be difficult wherever she goes if it is a big city, difficult for me more so than her. But I think I can gather enough support to get her there and back as needed. I don't want my anxiety to be even a remote factor in her decision.

Thank you for the reminder for FastWeb. I used it myself a couple months ago (for my own, current schooling).

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

My experiences with Harvard are mostly negative.

I visited Harvard when I was looking at colleges. It was the only place that didn't fall all over itself with excitement. I never even applied there. I figured why go to some place that doesn't want you?

I did attend one of the other Ivy League schools, and I went up to Harvard on several occassions -- mostly for soccer games. I remember them mainly for having the dingiest and dirteist lockers of any of the schools we visited.

I taught at MIT for a couple of years. In Boston, MIT and Harvard are the big two, with Brandeis sort of a respectable poor relation. The rest of the schools are dogshit, as far as the big boys are concerned. Well, Wellesley, where my wife was teaching, was sort of okay. I remember the Harvard crowd as being incredibly pompous, even worse than the MIT folks.

My wife was at leave at Harvard for a year. It was a strange experience for her. There was one aging professor who used to trail her around the library.

This guy was convinced that women were not capable of doing mathematics. She thought he was afraid she was going to doodle in the journals. I think he was more likely just perving her.

One of the most prominent mathematicians in her field was at Harvard, and we were invited to his retirement dinner at the Harvard club. This institution was about as dingy as the lockers I remembered from my undergraduate days. As change would have it, we and another couple we went to grad school with wound up sitting at the same table as this professor. We all had a little too much wine, and he starting to explain why women were geneticially incapable of rational activities. The two ladies spent the rest of the evening enlightening him.

And I think you're an idiot if you're discounting schools, such as Boston University, Northeastern University, Boston College, Emerson College, UMass, Tufts University, Simmons College, Suffolk University, Bay State College, Emanual College, Wheelock College, Wentworth Institute of Technology, Massachusetts College of Art, Berkelee College of Music, New England Conservatory of Music, School of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston Architectural College, Massachusetts College of Pharmacy, New England School of Law, and St. John's Seminary, just to name a few.

How you can wipe away with a broad brush stroke some great colleges and universities, just because they don't have the big endowments of Harvard and MIT, two schools that are not even in Boston, but in Cambridge, is beyond me and truly shows your ignorance of the higher educational institutions of Massachusetts.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Plus, big schools aren't for everyone. By a longshot.

Check out the book Harvard Schmarvard - reviews a lot of smaller, second tier schools that are highly rated.

Harvard has a bad reputation for soliciting Ninjas, cripples, retards, etc. to cover its ass with PC Nazis, then toss the pissants out when they cant perform.

 

[WRJames]

And I think you're an idiot if you're discounting schools, such as Boston University, Northeastern University, Boston College, Emerson College, UMass, Tufts University, Simmons College, Suffolk University, Bay State College, Emanual College, Wheelock College, Wentworth Institute of Technology, Massachusetts College of Art, Berkelee College of Music, New England Conservatory of Music, School of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston Architectural College, Massachusetts College of Pharmacy, New England School of Law, and St. John's Seminary, just to name a few.

How you can wipe away with a broad brush stroke some great colleges and universities, just because they don't have the big endowments of Harvard and MIT, two schools that are not even in Boston, but in Cambridge, is beyond me and truly shows your ignorance of the higher educational institutions of Massachusetts.

Wait, wait. Don't kill the messenger. I'm just telling you how those "other" schools were viewed from the lofty perspective of the Harvard/MIT crowd.

My son is an engineer and I've always told him to steer clear of MIT. That may give you an indication of how I feel about those two venerated institutions.

I have a friend who is a professor at Northeastern, and she definitely feels like something of a failure because she's at such a second rate, or maybe third rate, school. That's such bullshit. But Boston has such a concentration of talent, and there is so much competition, snobbishness, backbiting ...

It's a hothouse environment. Yes, there are wonderful cultural opportunities, lots of very intelligent people to interact with, overwhelming educational opportunities.

The down side is that all those smart people tend to cancel each other out.

In the meantime, a lot of the real world is starving for some leadership and guidance.

 

[Pure]

jbj

i don't think Harvard tosses out many at all. got any numbers?

btw, cripples, for example can be quite outstanding in their area. perhaps you've heard of Hawking.

and even the non-white, non-East-Asian races occasionally really excel at something academic, and if so, have a chance at being admitted to--and graduating from-- Harvard.

jbj: Harvard has a bad reputation for soliciting Ninjas, cripples, retards, etc. to cover its ass with PC Nazis, then toss the pissants out when they cant perform.

 

[Sir Victor]

Thankfully, being part of the in crowd is not a remote priority for her, especially with the Asperger's. She also has a rather cynical sense of humor about people in general. If you've ever seen the show House, Dr. House is the male version of my daughter.

Several people here seem to be responding with regard to how they *think* it is at Harvard, are they speaking from experience. I doubt it.

Is your daughter's case rather mild, I would think that it would have to be for her to go off on her own? Have you considered calling the school and see how they react to her Aspergers? How they respond, I would think, might help you decide.

I believe that in the end, and after a few years out of school it is not the school but rather the individual, how they perform in real world tasks. I'd say especially within the top 25 or so schools in a field.

Some of the most technically competent people I know did not go to the best schools. Seems to me that in the end should be the school that you and she are most comfortable with.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Several people here seem to be responding with regard to how they *think* it is at Harvard, are they speaking from experience. I doubt it.

Is your daughter's case rather mild, I would think that it would have to be for her to go off on her own? Have you considered calling the school and see how they react to her Aspergers? How they respond, I would think, might help you decide.

I believe that in the end, and after a few years out of school it is not the school but rather the individual, how they perform in real world tasks. I'd say especially within the top 25 or so schools in a field.

Some of the most technically competent people I know did not go to the best schools. Seems to me that in the end should be the school that you and she are most comfortable with.

You must be a Kennedy. What a tard.

 

[trysail]

Several people here seem to be responding with regard to how they *think* it is at Harvard, are they speaking from experience. I doubt it.

The substantial preponderance of people who go there are cautious about disclosing the fact. You see, it's a bit of a game— the fact only gets dribbled out if one believes there's an advantage to be gained. Many are extremely self-conscious and well-aware of the disadvantages that result from envy, prejudice and stereotyping.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Harvard has a bad reputation for soliciting Ninjas, cripples, retards, etc. to cover its ass with PC Nazis, then toss the pissants out when they cant perform.

Well, if there are ninjas, she'll definitely want to go there.
Are there llamas? She's a little suspicious of them.

btw, my daughter is biracial and one of the top 50,000 high school juniors in the country. She's only a junior now because she skipped a grade.

Get back in your box.

 

[Xelebes]

Speaking as one who is with AS, it is important to ask her what is more important - her particular interest or reputation. Most on the high end of the spectrum will say that the interest is more important than reputation. That is the case for me, at least.

What is her interest? Will Harvard be able to accommodate that interest? Is that interest better served at another university? Is her friends the most important interest?

 

[Handprints]

Like Pure, I went to one of Harvard's football competitors (the same one as Pure, as a matter of fact), got to know it a little bit at weekend parties, then went back about six years ago for about two months as a guest lecturer. Not much had changed: it's still a (very) big, very wide-ranging, very well-funded place. The students (after first year, at least) are reasonably bright and willing enough to drive discussions forward (to be fair, I was getting some help in that regard by planting questions).

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far, and that I remember from student days and saw again as an adult there - Harvard's students love their oddballs. If there's any grain of truth in your comparison of your daughter and House, she's not going to have many social problems. The place has (and had) a small minority of overbred idiots hoping to preserve a high school atmosphere. The majority were likely to consider you an ornament to the campus if you bred exotic moths in your dorm.

Beyond that, it's absolutely true that it's much, much harder to get into Harvard than to graduate: the administration loathes any policy that smacks of sink or swim. For an undergraduate sciences education, my wife (who's a physics person) tells me it's well above average. The value of the network connections is no more or less than what you make of them - you're not making your daughter sound like someone who works a crowd. The value of the education is high and, if she's anxious for city life, so's the value of Boston.

Hope that's of use,
H

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Speaking as one who is with AS, it is important to ask her what is more important - her particular interest or reputation. Most on the high end of the spectrum will say that the interest is more important than reputation. That is the case for me, at least.

What is her interest? Will Harvard be able to accommodate that interest? Is that interest better served at another university? Is her friends the most important interest?

Her career interest is medical science. You are probably familiar with the intense interest aspect of AS. She has two strong interests- human anatomy and physiology and anything Japanese (with which she rolls sushi, reads graphic novels, plans to live in Tokyo or at least spend time there, practiced Sumi painting, taught herself how to speak the language over the past 4 years, and is currently trying to learn to write it). I'm not sure what will become of the Japanese, but she's always had a strong interest in science. (Her favorite book to read when she was 5 was my college biology book.)

This is the first year of her life that she has had real friends. She sees peers as "kids." She told me that the reason she wants to go into pathology instead of being a doctor is that she can work in a lab and not have to deal with people.

If you don't mind my asking, do you associate keeping and naming things with AS? Like she will keep a small box or shiny objects and give them people names. (She has even assigned relationships to some and has done Punnet squares for them by assigning some traits as dominant, some recessive.) But, she uses nicknames for people- never their real names. For example, I'm not mom, I'm "the Woman" and her brothers are "The Boy" and "The Other One." One of the other artists that often shows at the same art shows I do had pictures of hotdogs is some of his work at the first show. He has forever been christened "Hotdog Guy."

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far, and that I remember from student days and saw again as an adult there - Harvard's students love their oddballs. If there's any grain of truth in your comparison of your daughter and House, she's not going to have many social problems.

Thank you. She's definitely a "House." We watch the show and sometimes I just have to laugh cuz he says things that could have easily come from her mouth. If what you say is true, she would be their unofficial mascot in no time. (As long as her mocking of humanity doesn't piss people off)

 

[Xelebes]

If you don't mind my asking, do you associate keeping and naming things with AS? Like she will keep a small box or shiny objects and give them people names. (She has even assigned relationships to some and has done Punnet squares for them by assigning some traits as dominant, some recessive.) But, she uses nicknames for people- never their real names. For example, I'm not mom, I'm "the Woman" and her brothers are "The Boy" and "The Other One." One of the other artists that often shows at the same art shows I do had pictures of hotdogs is some of his work at the first show. He has forever been christened "Hotdog Guy."

Neither myself or my autistic siblings do this, though I can see this being a behaviour of some. Though my brother did name his teddy bears in the same fashion as your daughter with people. I named my toys, but with a bit more obvious names - plush dog was "Arf-Arf", teddy bear "Mr. Bear", favoured plush smurf "Smurf", disfavoured plush smurf "Eyes-Too-Close", and so on and so forth.

What I do do with my more mundane fascinations is create a story with each item. I used - no, still do - make stories with numbers. My dad was constantly confused with me writing pages after pages of numbers, all me playing out an epic by means of the numbers - and I bet he is still confused by it.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

I've learned to just grin and nod at my daughter's little quirks. I figure once your IQ hits a certain level, compensation must be made somewhere... LOL
just kidding!

My daughter was never really into toys. She adores small, unique things. Last time we went to an office supply store, they had a bag of colored and shaped paperclips. She asked for them and joked that they are her friends while she started naming them people names... Bob, John, Nancy... LOL

Someone was telling me once that Boston Legal or some similar show had a character with AS that fell in love with the lawyer's computer. (Sorry if that's wrong, I never saw the show) Not that I expect Roni to fall in love with any objects, but she certainly seems to favor things over people (and not in a materialistic way).

 

[Xelebes]

It seems that we use pets instead of objects for that. My mom, who might be only labeled as someone with extremely mild AS or none at all, talks with her animals all the time, content with her social life just revolving around that.

 

[KarennaC]

Lady, I can't give you any information about Harvard, but I want to wish you and your daughter the best in making this decision about her future. I also want to thank you for posting. My 10-year-old daughter has Asperger's, and reading what your daughter has accomplished gives me great hope for my daughter's future. She's at the high end of the spectrum, reads and writes at a high school level though she's a bit shaky in math, which is likely because the math program her school uses is very abstract and has a lot of, "What strategy would you use to solve this problem" type of questions. She recently informed me that she wants to be a "teacher during the school year and a marine biologist during summer vacations".

There was an episode of House in which Wilson and someone else (I forget which character) speculated that House might have Asperger's. My 13-year-old and I watched that episode, looked at each other, and said, "Yeah, that makes sense."

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Asperger's is rare. I diagnosed 1000s of kids and never saw one.

Is HOUSE Asperger's? No. He's what we call a cerebral narcissist...a fucking know-it-all. But even this label isnt correct, becuz he's usually right. Real cerebral narcisists are stubborn to the point of being dangerous if you cross them. Its their way or a fat lip, and when they fuck up its your fault.

The best way to seriously fuck up a diagnosis is to assume that the average child is docile, obedient, altruistic, diligent, and plays nice with others. This is the classic diagnosis for Dependent Personality Disorder.

The best measure for pathology is to gauge how much control a kid requires. Kids who need incarceration and physical restraint are much worse than kids who respond to voice commands and re-direction. The official diagnostic criteria doesnt distinguish bad from worse, or inconvenient from bad, and the typical guidance counselor doesnt know her ass from a crack in the sidewalk.

 

[Xelebes]

Asperger's is rare. I diagnosed 1000s of kids and never saw one.

Is HOUSE Asperger's? No. He's what we call a cerebral narcissist...a fucking know-it-all. But even this label isnt correct, becuz he's usually right. Real cerebral narcisists are stubborn to the point of being dangerous if you cross them. Its their way or a fat lip, and when they fuck up its your fault.

The best way to seriously fuck up a diagnosis is to assume that the average child is docile, obedient, altruistic, diligent, and plays nice with others. This is the classic diagnosis for Dependent Personality Disorder.

The best measure for pathology is to gauge how much control a kid requires. Kids who need incarceration and physical restraint are much worse than kids who respond to voice commands and re-direction. The official diagnostic criteria doesnt distinguish bad from worse, or inconvenient from bad, and the typical guidance counselor doesnt know her ass from a crack in the sidewalk.

Gotta agree with this guy, House is not Aspergers. He's not asocial, he's more anti-social than anything.