Where are all the men?

[graceanne]

(And cookies for Gracie, naturally).

Aw! You wuv me!

 

[CutieMouse]

Hard for me to comment on this one way or the other. I think most "high fashion" looks ridiculous. This may jump out more because it's so feminine but honestly most of what I see coming down a runway, (in magazines), is just over the top.

I don't feel well. Night all. I'll leave a tray of cupcakes on the shelf for the night owls. (And cookies for Gracie, naturally).

Do what I did - skim the runway fashion bits and go back to eye candy-ing George...

 

[graceanne]

Do what I did - skim the runway fashion bits and go back to eye candy-ing George...

I admit nothing.

 

[Netzach]

Hard for me to comment on this one way or the other. I think most "high fashion" looks ridiculous. This may jump out more because it's so feminine but honestly most of what I see coming down a runway, (in magazines), is just over the top.

It is design that is meant to make it twenty feet down the catwalk or so and makeup that needs to be appreciated 400 feet away.

It has nothing to do with reality whatsoever. Consider it like an auto show, most of those cars are like fiction.

Wow, that's heinous, AA.

The pink tux could be amazing, but everything else is just - brain bleach needed. Argh.

Eddie Izzard androgyny good. That bad.

 

[JMohegan]

Androgynous hippy was in style in the 60s. Not sure what to call men's fashion in the 70s, but there were actual guys walking around in wild prints, bell-bottoms, and platform shoes. Even some ruffled shirts and pastel tuxedos at proms.

The photos at AA's link were hilarious! Damn, I hope they paid those models a whole hell of a lot.

Personally, I'm not gonna worry about clothing trends until they stop making basic pants, oxfords and polo shirts in muted colors. In the meantime, I'll just continue my lifelong chuckling at everything to do with the fashion world. Nothing wrong with it, of course, but I'm just not into the peacock thing.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>but I'm just not into the peacock thing.

Stop judging my bird fetish!

 

[JMohegan]

Stop judging my bird fetish!

Hey, I said there was nothing wrong with it!

Now I'm curious. What does MM usually wear?

 

[Netzach]

Androgynous hippy was in style in the 60s. Not sure what to call men's fashion in the 70s, but there were actual guys walking around in wild prints, bell-bottoms, and platform shoes. Even some ruffled shirts and pastel tuxedos at proms.

The photos at AA's link were hilarious! Damn, I hope they paid those models a whole hell of a lot.

Personally, I'm not gonna worry about clothing trends until they stop making basic pants, oxfords and polo shirts in muted colors. In the meantime, I'll just continue my lifelong chuckling at everything to do with the fashion world. Nothing wrong with it, of course, but I'm just not into the peacock thing.

The thing about those trainwrecks, is that I, as a fashion adventuresome fetishy leigh bowery is my idol WOMAN would not be caught dead in any of it.

Except the pink tux, which could be worked by the right person. Probably, alas, not me.

 

[satindesire]

The thing about those trainwrecks, is that I, as a fashion adventuresome fetishy leigh bowery is my idol WOMAN would not be caught dead in any of it.

Except the pink tux, which could be worked by the right person. Probably, alas, not me.

I absolutely LOVE fashion, but like most people, would not wear 90% of it.

Not only would I look ridiculous, most of that highfashion stuff is for girls without boobs.

And I have boobs.

So I'm SOL.

I would just die to go to a live runway show for Dereon.

http://shop.dereon.com/shop.php

I love Beyonce!!

 

[ownedsubgal]

I absolutely LOVE fashion, but like most people, would not wear 90% of it.

Not only would I look ridiculous, most of that highfashion stuff is for girls without boobs.

And I have boobs.

So I'm SOL.

I would just die to go to a live runway show for Dereon.

http://shop.dereon.com/shop.php

I love Beyonce!!

omg....did you just say that you "love" beyonce?!!?!?!?!!!

beyonce is on my list of top 5 most despised human beings...just behind kim jong il and oprah. her influence on young girls in particular just infuriates me!!!...sigh, but that is a rant for another day.

on high fashion, i will confess to adoring it from afar. the ultra-girly/super retro (even antique-ish) collections especially. sadly i do not have the confidence to even contemplate attempting any of these looks for myself. but i love to peak through the posh shop windows in Georgetown and imagine how i would dress if i were richer/thinner/prettier.

 

[satindesire]

omg....did you just say that you "love" beyonce?!!?!?!?!!!

beyonce is on my list of top 5 most despised human beings...just behind kim jong il and oprah. her influence on young girls in particular just infuriates me!!!...sigh, but that is a rant for another day.

on high fashion, i will confess to adoring it from afar. the ultra-girly/super retro (even antique-ish) collections especially. sadly i do not have the confidence to even contemplate attempting any of these looks for myself. but i love to peak through the posh shop windows in Georgetown and imagine how i would dress if i were richer/thinner/prettier.

I can think of a lot worse than Beyonce. Say, Britney Spears. Kim Kardashian. Jessica Simpson. Lindsey Lohan. Mischa Barton. Paris Hilton. Shall I go on?

 

[ownedsubgal]

I can think of a lot worse than Beyonce. Say, Britney Spears. Kim Kardashian. Jessica Simpson. Lindsey Lohan. Mischa Barton. Paris Hilton. Shall I go on?

while the arrogance and superficiality of all of the women mentioned above is sickened, beyonce has something additional which makes her unbearable for me: her fierce and insistent pushing of the "independent woman" ideology. as a submissive woman and as one who believes in the balance and beauty in traditional gender roles, that is something that i just cannot tolerate. what saddens and frightens me the most is that she is selling these ideas to the very young and impressionable, ensuring generations to come of confused women, bad relationships, the emasculation of men and lonely, bitter women.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

while the arrogance and superficiality of all of the women mentioned above is sickened, beyonce has something additional which makes her unbearable for me: her fierce and insistent pushing of the "independent woman" ideology. as a submissive woman and as one who believes in the balance and beauty in traditional gender roles, that is something that i just cannot tolerate. what saddens and frightens me the most is that she is selling these ideas to the very young and impressionable, ensuring generations to come of confused women, bad relationships, the emasculation of men and lonely, bitter women.

osg...

• Are you saying that ALL women should follow "traditional gender roles," being submissive to men?
• Are you suggesting that women can NOT be independent human beings, with thoughts and wills and desires and goals of their own, whether submissive or not?
• Are you saying that young women/girls should not have the RIGHT to decide for themselves what life path they should follow, whether that be one of submission to whomever/whatever or domination of whomever/whatever, or simple independence?
• Does your last sentence really say what it seems to say: that independence in women will lead to the breakdown of society?

 

[ownedsubgal]

osg...

• Are you saying that ALL women should follow "traditional gender roles," being submissive to men?
• Are you suggesting that women can NOT be independent human beings, with thoughts and wills and desires and goals of their own, whether submissive or not?
• Are you saying that young women/girls should not have the RIGHT to decide for themselves what life path they should follow, whether that be one of submission to whomever/whatever or domination of whomever/whatever, or simple independence?
• Does your last sentence really say what it seems to say: that independence in women will lead to the breakdown of society?

hi Sir Winston. first, although i do believe in traditional gender roles and in the natural order, i am also aware that not all women are submissive by nature and i do not feel that a path of submissiveness should be forced any more than the path of "independence" which is popular today should be forced upon anymore.

on the question of girls/women choosing the path that is right for them, i do not agree with such a concept when it comes to dominance or submission. i believe you are what you are, and it is not something that one can choose as you choose a career path. i believe that we live in a society which forces many girls and women to ignore, hide, deny, and be ashamed of who they truly are, because it does not fit the ball-busting, uber-assertive domineering "me" first mentality that is currently considered socially acceptable and proper for females. independence is one thing, the ideology pushed by popular media and the likes of oprah, dr. phil and beyonce is quite another. it is drilled into our heads daily that a woman should not "need" a man, that a man must do whatever is required to "earn" a woman's attention and favor, a woman must control her man and the relationship, and any man who objects or hesitates to this need be questioned as an abuser or control freak. the end result of this kind of social and cultural conditioning is not pretty and frankly terrifying to someone like me.

so yes, i do believe that THIS mentality has greatly contributed to a very sad and possibly irreparable breakdown in society.

 

[ChainedEros]

Beyonce is submissive to her husband. If you watch them interact, her body language and mannerisms are all submissive.

Most of her music is written for her. If she didn't perform it, then they would simply pass it on to some other female artist. Beyonce is not the only one spreading that message. So, maybe your issue is with popular culture rather than Beyonce herself.

However, I applaud your courage to present your beliefs in a forthright manner. It's seems that free thought is discouraged here and opinions that don't match the status quo are unwelcome. I applaud you for being true to yourself.

 

[ownedsubgal]

Beyonce is submissive to her husband. If you watch them interact, her body language and mannerisms are all submissive.

Most of her music is written for her. If she didn't perform it, then they would simply pass it on to some other female artist. Beyonce is not the only one spreading that message. So, maybe your issue is with popular culture rather than Beyonce herself.

However, I applaud your courage to present your beliefs in a forthright manner. It's seems that free thought is discouraged here and opinions that don't match the status quo are unwelcome. I applaud you for being true to yourself.

oh yes i am quite aware that beyonce herself is submissive (at least to a minor degree) to her husband. that only makes the image and message she puts out to the world all the more infuriating. SHE does not even believe in these ridiculous ideas, yet she is perfectly comfortable with preaching the message to millions of impressionable little girls and young women.


btw...free thought is certainly not discouraged here on lit. i wouldn't have stuck around reading and posting for years if that were the case. it's a good board with some very cool, insightful folks. certain ideas are less PUBLICLY popular than others, that is all.

 

[satindesire]

oh yes i am quite aware that beyonce herself is submissive (at least to a minor degree) to her husband. that only makes the image and message she puts out to the world all the more infuriating. SHE does not even believe in these ridiculous ideas, yet she is perfectly comfortable with preaching the message to millions of impressionable little girls and young women.


btw...free thought is certainly not discouraged here on lit. i wouldn't have stuck around reading and posting for years if that were the case. it's a good board with some very cool, insightful folks. certain ideas are less PUBLICLY popular than others, that is all.

Fact of the matter is, we don't know Beyonce personally and we can't really say whether or not she is submissive, Dominant, or on equal terms with her husband. We also can't truly say what she really believes in, traditional gender roles or an "independent woman" mindset.

Obviously what a person sings about can be quite different than what they believe.

I.E. Jessica Simpson.

While I disagree with you entirely, I respect your opinion.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

Beyonce is submissive to her husband. If you watch them interact, her body language and mannerisms are all submissive.

How do you know? Have you seen them interact for a long period of time?

Out in public both of them are submissive to their PR person, manager, bodyguards, etc.

 

[Netzach]

hi Sir Winston. first, although i do believe in traditional gender roles and in the natural order, i am also aware that not all women are submissive by nature and i do not feel that a path of submissiveness should be forced any more than the path of "independence" which is popular today should be forced upon anymore.

on the question of girls/women choosing the path that is right for them, i do not agree with such a concept when it comes to dominance or submission. i believe you are what you are, and it is not something that one can choose as you choose a career path. i believe that we live in a society which forces many girls and women to ignore, hide, deny, and be ashamed of who they truly are, because it does not fit the ball-busting, uber-assertive domineering "me" first mentality that is currently considered socially acceptable and proper for females. independence is one thing, the ideology pushed by popular media and the likes of oprah, dr. phil and beyonce is quite another. it is drilled into our heads daily that a woman should not "need" a man, that a man must do whatever is required to "earn" a woman's attention and favor, a woman must control her man and the relationship, and any man who objects or hesitates to this need be questioned as an abuser or control freak. the end result of this kind of social and cultural conditioning is not pretty and frankly terrifying to someone like me.

so yes, i do believe that THIS mentality has greatly contributed to a very sad and possibly irreparable breakdown in society.

It's funny, because I can't really argue with this. I think a kind of totally fake controlling "liberation" is being peddled, and in general human beings are being discouraged from healthy interaction with one another. Women and women, men and women, men and men. That "me first" insane isn't working for men, women or other. It's not just being suggested to females, it seems to be the guiding principle - grab what you can and fuck everyone else.

Selling your cooch to the guy who jumps through the most hoops only to hate him for jumping through hoops is fail. I see a lot of very unsatisfied vanilla women in this cycle.

More for me, I guess - I don't hate guys for doing what I tell them to. I hate guys who will do anything ANYONE tells them to, but me, I'm special like that.

I just happen to like guys jumping through hoops, but that's wiring. It's my style. It makes my heart beat fast and my pupils dilate and my snatch tingle.

If it's not your style and you're suckered into it it makes it suck for everyone. Just as much as the opposite.

However female self-determination is new enough and precarious enough in actuality that I don't think it's bad to have role models of it. Being oneself is liable to assist in that, not being a product and a creation. The message is very garbled and very weird. However the most common relationship advice I see in the mainstream is that women's sexuality is a commodity they're giving away too cheaply and everyone's snatch is lined with gold.

If that doesn't tickle you somehow and at the back of your mind still strike you as absurd while titillating, being MADE to act this way is freaking insane. It's an amusing facet of my sexuality, it's certainly not the main course, and it's not exactly helping anyone in actuality. If the only power you have is fuckability index, this is better exactly how?

The faux Dominatrix is all over the mainstream and I'm cynical enough not to be psyched about that.

 

[Netzach]

How do you know? Have you seen them interact for a long period of time?

Out in public both of them are submissive to their PR person, manager, bodyguards, etc.

I also call horse dookie here and I don't know anything more about Beyonce's interior life than I do Leonardo Da Vinci's. Less actually.

 

[ownedsubgal]

It's funny, because I can't really argue with this. I think a kind of totally fake controlling "liberation" is being peddled, and in general human beings are being discouraged from healthy interaction with one another. Women and women, men and women, men and men. That "me first" insane isn't working for men, women or other. It's not just being suggested to females, it seems to be the guiding principle - grab what you can and fuck everyone else.

Selling your cooch to the guy who jumps through the most hoops only to hate him for jumping through hoops is fail. I see a lot of very unsatisfied vanilla women in this cycle.

More for me, I guess - I don't hate guys for doing what I tell them to. I hate guys who will do anything ANYONE tells them to, but me, I'm special like that.

I just happen to like guys jumping through hoops, but that's wiring. It's my style. It makes my heart beat fast and my pupils dilate and my snatch tingle.

If it's not your style and you're suckered into it it makes it suck for everyone. Just as much as the opposite.

However female self-determination is new enough and precarious enough in actuality that I don't think it's bad to have role models of it. Being oneself is liable to assist in that, not being a product and a creation.

agreed. a role model of a strong, confident woman who lives life on her own terms, with grace and beauty...that certainly wouldn't be a bad thing. so what if it's not my bag. the crap that is spewed out and blindly gobbled up by so many today is another beast entirely.

you're right, it doesn't foster healthy relationships. healthy, productive, logical relationships don't seem to be in vogue at the moment. and a lot of folks are suffering because of it.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

However, I applaud your courage to present your beliefs in a forthright manner. It seems that free thought is discouraged here and opinions that don't match the status quo are unwelcome. I applaud you for being true to yourself.

CE, are you an alt? You've been a member of Lit since '03 and have fewer than three hundred posts in almost six years. I hesitate to believe that a six-year member here with that few posts has spent much time in this forum. Either that, or you just didn't have anything to say... ?

Of all the fora in Lit and other boards I've perused over the years, BDSM Talk/Café has offered more free, uninhibited and sometimes completely off-the-wall thought than any dozen of the others. I can't believe you had the nads to make that statement.

As for "opinions that don't match the status quo [being] unwelcome," again I'll have to strongly disagree with you. Those opinions might be debated, debunked, argued (both for and against), and sometimes made fun of... but I can't recall the poster(s) of any "opinion that [didn't] match the status quo" being told their opinion was not welcome, or that the poster wasn't - as long as the opinion was clearly stated and on a topic that fit this forum. Disagreement or debate or debunking is not un-welcoming an opinion; it's merely disagreement or debate or debunking. That's what people DO in a forum.

Sorry, CE - I think you just gave your foot some prime deep throat.

 

[YourCaptor]

agreed. a role model of a strong, confident woman who lives life on her own terms, with grace and beauty...that certainly wouldn't be a bad thing. so what if it's not my bag. the crap that is spewed out and blindly gobbled up by so many today is another beast entirely.

you're right, it doesn't foster healthy relationships. healthy, productive, logical relationships don't seem to be in vogue at the moment. and a lot of folks are suffering because of it.

I think the problem is that kids don't have role models period. Entertainers are not meant to be role models, their entire job is to be novelty items, not moral code inspiring.

It would be interesting to do a study into why kids accept such people as models.

Personally, underlying all this I think is money. The idea that money is just a converted form of any happiness you can think of, all you got to do is collect it and exchange it, which honestly, at least for me, does not work.

If kids where taught a more direct approach, money on the side, how diffrent things would be.

 

[midwestyankee]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a4/Mens_Vogue.jpg

Click me.

http://mydisguises.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/batmanrobin_pics012.jpg

Good grief Charlie Brown.

This does little to support the notion that western society has perpetrated a massive feminization conspiracy against all men. That some men choose to dress in a way that is proscribed by a few fashion magazines tells us no more about changes in western manhood than does the fact that some men choose to buy cars based on advertisements created on Madison Avenue.

I hear all these people whining and crying about the feminization of men and no one can come up with anything remotely like valid proof. I call bullshit.

 

[Keroin]

I give pop icons less weight now than I used to. I think their influence on young people is superficial and short lived.

Thinking back, I can only recall one female singer who made a lasting impression on me in my teen years, and that was Annie Lennox. When the spectrum of popular girl singers for my generation was basically Debbie Gibson to Madonna, Lennox was a nice kick in the pants. Men's suits, cropped (orange )hair, husky voice, and lyrics that weren't all about boys...whew.

I still think she rocks the block, BTW.

Kids will always gravitate to what they identify with. The idea of a "message" just doesn't work for me. Beyonce is hardly the harbinger of doom. YC has a much better point about money as an evil influence. That I can buy. (Pun?)