sub/dom poems are all crap poems because bdsm is just a fetish and blah blah blah

[Tzara]

I'm just a redneck planting tomatoes before I can go shoot my potato cannon with my brother. It's really funny as hell to watch a potato go 250 yards with a hang time of 15 seconds before it splashes in the lake.

Now that is a worthy subject for poem:

Gracefully arcing spud,
bent parabolic by Newton's love,
kerplunks in lake like Bashō's frog.
(Unless, of course, a dud.)​

though that, of course, is not the poem the subject deserves.

Perhaps I should go back to writing unicorn poems.

 

[Keroin]

Haiku?

Tuber missile flies
Describing arc in sky
Lake eats



*The author is not now, nor ever has been, a poet but she likes poets, she has several poet friends who are kind and put up with her lame attempts at haiku.

 

[Netzach]

Netzach, Shandrach, Messach. haha. Just now I figured out that Nettie and Dommy are probably the same real life individual! I'm f-ing brilliant with a capital B, go Bayside!

WD, did you get this? I'm your alt.

I really want everyone to see this.

I think I'll take a million redneck MDoms over one uptight little prig who has decided he knows what's healthy and good for "females."

 

[WriterDom]

WD, did you get this? I'm your alt.

I really want everyone to see this.

I think I'll take a million redneck MDoms over one uptight little prig who has decided he knows what's healthy and good for "females."

Yeah that's a hoot. bflagsst's wife or future wife is going to be one of those women we see on our forum about once every two or three weeks saying she wants this so bad but her hubby thinks it is sick.

If she comes to me I'll be sure to post the pics.

 

[annaswirls]

I stand corrected. Allow me to rephrase ...

Well Senna you old rubbish heap, who wouldda thunk it? We seem to be sharing our own fuzzy headed doll from the 80's. We are twice blessed.


::

hehehee you are pretty funny for an old rubbish guy thing (wait, what were you again?)

 

[annaswirls]

I could do it. But third person stories are what most people want unless you are directly writing to someone you know. I do a lot of short first person stuff on the blog. Very vague so lots of women can relate.

it would not have to be 3rd person. As you write you would BE the woman. I know of a very talented man who writes as a woman, Minervous. Link coming.

 

[annaswirls]

Well, since folks are gonna come out of the woodwork, I'll post one of my newer poems. I'm a wickedeve and tzara fan too, I was just heartbroken that she has already forgotten me.

I would be heartbroken too! She started a thread for you and everything! I think she needs to be punished.....

 

[annaswirls]

Annie, I'll be your dance partner all over the poetry world.

Will you??? I am going to hold you to that, you know. Don't go breakin my heart and forget about me.

by the way, I really like you, think you are cool and super talented but um, you can't really heap all the BDSM folks into a pile (although if you do, it would make a cool photo- said lovingly)

Many "typical" folks (ie soccer moms in mini-vans wearing khackis capris) have strong BDSM tendencies and don't go for any of the more stereotypical props. You would not pick them out in a crowd. They have healthy relationships (as healthy as any standard fare relationship) because they really are equals.

When any human being stands above another, honestly believing and abusing superiority, or takes advantage of physical, psychological or mental strength, that to me is not a good thing-- it is something that makes me sick down in my gut and I am a very liberal girl.

I think this is what bg is referring to. That extreme.

It is a shame that it is this extreme that is most often portrayed in porn (written and visual) that skews the view of the BSDM lifestyle.

I could be totally wrong of course. What the hell do I know.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Odd how the scent of blood brings out new visitors to this little enclave. There will be blood, won't there?

 

[bflagsst]

writerdom, you sent me four poems, do you remember 'familiar leather'? Well, maybe you don't, but it includes the lines: "last time he raped her/right there at the door." Reaching for straws? you send me four poems and at least one is about rape or 'simulated' rape. That's a 25% hit rate for rape in Writerdom's poems.

But I mean, I don't see how I was saying anything about a community by saying fetish is crap when represented in poetry. I could care less about simulated rape, or any of the other practices between consenting adults. ZachyPoo wants to argue gender issues, I want to argue about what constitutes quality poetry, but I don't know what writerdom wants to argue. No one wants to argue how or why bdsm can come across well in poetic form, while I'm trying to say why it can't. Read the first post in this thread. I was invited here to argue my general statement: all sub/dom poems are crap because bdsm is merely a fetish in the universe of human sexuality, one that pales in compare to the natural sub/dom relationship between monogamous man and woman, emphasized by our culture.

Sure I'm this or that, my wife is this or that, I'm gay, my prose is crap. So far it doesn't look like there's an argument in favor of bdsm making good poetry. There is an argument for bflagsst making good poetry, just read my poems. The sub/dom relationship romanticized by our culture is present, maybe not as clear-cut as some would like. Again, I'm making value judgements about poetry, not about where writerdom goes to the bathroom. Writerdom doesn't share the same interests as me, he doesn't like my poems because they don't give him pleasure when he reads for whatever reason, my reason for not liking his poems goes beyond me not like SM. I don't like his poetry because it's mostly a mess, the flow just isn't there, awkward phrasing, the expression is superficial because fetishism is superficial.

I guess I have to address zachster again: I know what's good for all females, I'm the western tradition, all females must be dominated lovingly by their upright/uptight husbands. <--- I must of said that somewhere along the way, right? You can't just be some bored internet entity looking for an argument that fits your interests? Zachy yearns to be married and pump out babies for her future unnamed husband, who is such a nice guy outside of the bedroom, but oh boy, he's such a manly man in bed!

 

[Homburg]

Yes. My opinion exactly (and more succinctly phrased that I would likely be, being that I'm a wordy sort).

Thanks.

Netz has levels in making sense in a beautifully succinct fashion.

It's like dialectical minimalism.

(Yeah, I'm making shit up again)

--

Why Craftsmen Outlive Rulers
by bflagsst©


I'm only people pleasing, -lamented Pharaoh,
I'm only as contemporary as the kohl
we run beneath our eyes, or the places
on the obelisk I've ordered my name etched.
-Alas, my name won't remain as immutable
as those defamed and defaced structures
I've come to scratch my name...

It puts me in the mind of "Ozymandias", just not as pretty.

The last three lines are what spawns the thought connection for me. The first part is actually interesting, as I can see the pharaoh yearning for relevance. It's a good image. The rest? Dithers out, and loses the meaning in a humdrum send-up of a classic.

--

Odd how the scent of blood brings out new visitors to this little enclave. There will be blood, won't there?

Do I count as a visitor?

Though, hey, I've written BDSM poetry. I guess I'm crap either way, visitor or not. I am, however, a WickedEve fan, a Tzara fan, an upbj fan, a Champy fan, a.... Fuck, the list is getting long.

I actually think the vast majority of what I write, poetry and prose, is crapcrapcrap. Then again, I subscribe to the school of thought that 90% of everything is crap, as shown here on lit a month or three back. I am firmly in the 90% vis a vis my assemblage of letters.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Do I count as a visitor?

No, darling, you're one of our more beautiful fixtures. I was thinking of visitors who contribute little if anything except when the knives are out.

For my part, I have written BDSM poetry and, if I can dig it up, I'll expose it here. It's a life-style I have tried and found it not for me but I find no fault in those who do.

I also find the i/You, me/Him poems hard to review so - when reviewing falls to me - I usually pass over them with the obligatory "there's something for everyone in the new poems" provisor.

 

[annaswirls]

I don't think this qualifies as BSDM but it does address the whole penetration/domination issue brought up-- and how the female can indeed take that role as well (even if only cow brain)

I know he wants me when I bleed
by annaswirls©

 

[WriterDom]

Here is a rape poem I wrote in 2002.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=74343

Some women get off on pretending to be raped. Have I used the R word before? I not sure. It's not really my kink ya know. Poetic license and stuff. I don't expect everyone to like me or even understand me. Those that do like me like me a lot.

I imagine at the time I was talking to someone with a huge rape fetish and wrote it for her.

 

[annaswirls]

should know better, sorry

 

[unpredictablebijou]

Your interest is, more or less, one where you dress up in leather and step on/spit on the heads of females.
.

Okay, wow. Just wow.

I'm in. Though I may count as one of the "visitors" at this point.

When I read a poem written about a topic I don't understand, like quantum physics or opera, I am triply careful about critiquing it, since I assume there are going to be layers of meaning that I have missed because of my lack of knowledge of the subject.

The whole "He Who Penetrates Is Dominant" thing is so fucking funny I don't even know where to start. But when there's such an obvious lack of understanding of the subject matter, is a reviewer really qualified to review a poem about that subject?

But only men could possibly possibly like forcefully insisting on a tongue up their ass or dragging ANYone by the hair. I'm just a pure little girl who needs cock in her pussy and to make babies, a peaceable kind.

*applause, laughter*

I don't think this qualifies as BSDM but it does address the whole penetration/domination issue brought up-- and how the female can indeed take that role as well (even if only cow brain)

I know he wants me when I bleed
by annaswirls©

Excellent choice. And while I despise these sorts of semantic arguments, the crowd does seem ripe for one, so I'll throw this out. What is BDSM poetry anyway? Are we including only the pieces that make obvious reference to leather and whips and such, or do we go to the other side and include any piece that speaks of power and exchange and the aspect of Will within love relationships?

For those who actually know a bit about the subject, the latter category might be far more appropriate. It's not about the toys.

I'll be making loads of fresh popcorn in the Bistro. Help yourselves.

 

[bflagsst]

bijou, you haven't read the thread. we've already mulled over what a bdsm poem looks like. You are a visitor, in that you've no interest reading the argument you've just entered.

We're really only missing one lesbian poet whom won't be named. Once she pops up and gives her two cents we'll know when the arguments left this planet.

"The whole "He Who Penetrates Is Dominant" thing is so fucking funny I don't even know where to start." You can start with Michel foucault "History of Sexuality". How is penetration, male over female, not the symbol of western sexuality? Wouldn't it be nice if we could just make up a new tradition, one with an assortment of goddesses, and turn tradition on its head with neo-pagan brilliance? Or live our lives in the ethics of care, or come into arguments not knowing where the actual argument is.

 

[00Syd]

bijou, you haven't read the thread. we've already mulled over what a bdsm poem looks like. You are a visitor, in that you've no interest reading the argument you've just entered.

We're really only missing one lesbian poet whom won't be named. Once she pops up and gives her two cents we'll know when the arguments left this planet.

"The whole "He Who Penetrates Is Dominant" thing is so fucking funny I don't even know where to start." You can start with Michel foucault "History of Sexuality". How is penetration, male over female, not the symbol of western sexuality? Wouldn't it be nice if we could just make up a new tradition, one with an assortment of goddesses, and turn tradition on its head.

You are thinking too much in terms of traditional notions of sexuality.

 

[Netzach]

it would not have to be 3rd person. As you write you would BE the woman. I know of a very talented man who writes as a woman, Minervous. Link coming.

Actually in regard to SM writing, I think if you write from the Top you're actually making life harder for yourself - gender has nothing to do with it. We're conditioned as readers to be in the head of the bottom more often. Hardly a single work of SM fiction with any legs takes place from the Top at all.

Additionally why is "egalitarian" the only paradigm for "healthy?" If the paradigm of the mainstream isn't working for you and doesn't feel healthy for you, how is it better for you to stay in it? I do not have egalitarian relationships. I also don't have relationships devoid of respect and communication, either.

 

[bflagsst]

You are thinking too much in terms of traditional notions of sexuality.

You're correct. I'm writing from within a tradition, but so is writerdom, therefore the constraints of that tradition apply to him as they do me.

Even better, many homosexual relationships display the same tradional sub/dom role. The sub is he who is penetrated. F-ing brilliant of foucault to already have done the work for us. Egalitarian relationships between lover and beloved, both hetero/homo, is something being pushed back against in our society after the questioning that took place last century. Men and women accepting tradional roles again, roles that have changed themselves. Poetry takes place within deep seeded human emotion. Erotic poetry is what we're talking about, so fetishism almost tautologically, excludes itself.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

bijou, you haven't read the thread. we've already mulled over what a bdsm poem looks like. You are a visitor, in that you've no interest reading the argument you've just entered.

.

I have indeed read the entire thread.

And I'm fascinated. Do go on.

 

[Netzach]

You are thinking too much in terms of traditional notions of sexuality.

I love this.

So freaking sexist and 'phobic it hurts and he's onto WD as sexist and 'phobic.

Because only heterosexual paradigms even exist. If you're outside that you're insane or just makin' shit up.

 

[bflagsst]

I love this.

So freaking sexist and 'phobic it hurts and he's onto WD as sexist and 'phobic.

Because only heterosexual paradigms even exist. If you're outside that you're insane or just makin' shit up.

Funny thing is, as I've mentioned, role paradigms shift to include the once aberrant, marginal character. The homosexual relationship isn't part of the new heterosexual power relation, the hetero power relation no long exists as it did, the hetero and homosexual relationships are almost interchangeable in that relation. It has nothing to do with conformity by the outsider, the whole thing widens at the margins. There is one paradigm, the western monogamous relationship based on love/sex, among other less interesting things. We don't sell our daughters to old men anymore do we?

 

[bflagsst]

Just to catch bijou up(I've already read every poem you've posted and will like your poems regardless of our interaction) to make a bdsm poem you need key terms present in the poem, words such as Slave, Master, Pet, Submission, Pain etc. And the pleasure is in the presence of those words, however, poetry is about expressing old ideas in new ways, so how do you write a bdsm poem without the generic terms? I don't think you can, cuz then it'll look like a poem by someone like wickedEve, a strong poem that has really little to do with describing the fetish and is more about the human to human relationship.

Bdsm poems focus on the fetish as fetish and drop out the human to human soul. A bdsm poem doesn't exist where the fetish needs are met and so is the poetic need for a fresh expression of human eroticism. I'm pretty sure writerdom agreed that you have to have those key terms, because they are pleasurable in writing and reading by the bdsm participant. To embrace bdsm poetry, you have to either alter what it is to have a sexual fetish, or accept poems that describe a fetish and not people.

 

[00Syd]

Just to catch bijou up(I've already read every poem you've posted and will like your poems regardless of our interaction) to make a bdsm poem you need key terms present in the poem, words such as Slave, Master, Pet, Submission, Pain etc. And the pleasure is in the presence of those words, however, poetry is about expressing old ideas in new ways, so how do you write a bdsm poem without the generic terms? I don't think you can, cuz then it'll look like a poem by someone like wickedEve, a strong poem that has really little to do with describing the fetish and is more about the human to human relationship.

I'm glad you know what all poetry is and should be about. It must be nice to have that sort of knowledge.