Help! Can a Dom and a sub just be friends?

[blulilacgrl]

Okay. I am running into a dilemma that I am hoping you guys can help me out with.

Since coming here to Lit I have met some really great people and in fact, have become really good friends with one or two. But I am finding that I am having a problem with one person in particular. I am in the process of exploring the submissive side of myself. I have found it in turns both exhilarating and very emotionally taxing. Mostly, I find that I am doing a lot of soul searching and self evaluation as I go along.

The problem I am having is that one of the people I have become very close friends with is a Dom. Not only is he a Dom, he is a Sexual Sadist. Now, I really need to stress that we are friends. He was there for me through some really messed up things last year and I have tried to be there for him as well. But what I am finding is that he and I have been fussing and fighting with each other more and more recently. It seems like we can’t go more than a day or two without blowing up at each other. Well actually, it’s more like me losing it and him laughing at me.

I am starting to wonder if our natural sexual inclinations are causing a problem even within the bounds of a platonic friendship, if our natural tendencies are somehow being played out even without the sexual element. And I guess I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this phenomenon as well.

Is it possible for a Dom and a sub to be friends? [laughs] Silly question I know, but I am hoping somebody can see what I am really asking. Has anyone else had a problem simply being close friends with a person whose sexual inclinations are a match for their own? Or maybe it is more that I am beginning to worry that the inherent power dynamic of a Dom/sub relationship is somehow interfering in a friendship. I don’t think it is a conscious thing, in fact I worry that these are our subconscious “roles” coming out. Does that make sense?

Hell at this point it doesn’t even really make sense to me. I am confused and, after yet another blow up, I admit that I am not thinking all that clearly.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice for me? Anything to help me see what might be going on here?

I appreciate any and all help. Thanks.

edited to add* Of course I thought of this after I posted but wonder if it might be pertinent to the discussion. The issues that I have been dealing with are by and large being resolved. This is happening just as he is beginning to experience issues of his own. So I wonder if there is also a bit of a shift, in that I am not leaning on him quite as much, but I am trying to be there for him as much as he will allow me.

 

[mernie99]

Is it possible for a Dom and a sub to be friends? [laughs] .

Of course it's possible. I am a sub and my best friend is a Dom, and we have always had a platonic relationship. I have been grateful for his advice and perspective. I have another close Dom friend who has a strong platonic relationship with a submissive. So, yes, it happens.

But it depends on the situation ... the personalities involved. And in this case, there seems to be a bit of sexual tension between the two of you. You say he's a sexual sadist; could his sadistic tendencies translate to enjoyment in hurting you emotionally? It seems a bit cruel that he would laugh at you. Have you mentioned how you feel after he attacks you?

For now I will give you Ann Landers stock response which I think applies to all sorts of relationships: Ask yourself, is your life better with or without him?

 

[J D Danger]

quite simply...yes I thing Doms and subs can be friends....I am a Dom and one of my closes friends is a sub.....

now we have had issues in the past....mostly on my end...I have know her for just over 5 years now and during at least 3 of the years I wanted deeply for her to submit to me...in a long term relationship sort of way

but she always said...Master I love you dearly and I think you are a firm and loving Dom...but we fit better as friends

in the end I have to admit..she was right

we have issues sometimes...simple things like I hate that she calls me Master less then she use to

sometimes I let things slide with her that I would not with subs that are mine...sometimes I know something is on her mind but she is not ready to tell me...so I have to wait or risk pushing too hard and shutting her down

do I ever get the urge to Dom her sure...I even pulled her over my lap and was ready to spank her for pouting at me once...

but for the most part we talk as friends...now and then..she will tell me I went to this play party and was treated as a pet..or I came for master 21 times last night...or master gave me new marks on my ass and I will talk over scenes or punishments that I have planed..but mostly we talk as friend...I am there for her when need and she is there for me...we listen to each other

we fight rarely...but when we do I have found that the fact that we are friends...helps to end conflict quickly....


she never tells me what to do she listens..and I rarely order her around...I listen and trust her judgement

Dom/sub and or BDSM is an interest we both share..but our friendship goes far beyond it

 

[blulilacgrl]

Of course it's possible. I am a sub and my best friend is a Dom, and we have always had a platonic relationship. I have been grateful for his advice and perspective. I have another close Dom friend who has a strong platonic relationship with a submissive. So, yes, it happens.

But it depends on the situation ... the personalities involved. And in this case, there seems to be a bit of sexual tension between the two of you. You say he's a sexual sadist; could his sadistic tendencies translate to enjoyment in hurting you emotionally? It seems a bit cruel that he would laugh at you. Have you mentioned how you feel after he attacks you?

For now I will give you Ann Landers stock response which I think applies to all sorts of relationships: Ask yourself, is your life better with or without him?

I do think my life is better for having him in it. He gives a unique perspective to things that are going on in my life and I find it very freeing to talk to him as he is extremely nonjudgmental and steadfast. I appreciate that when I blow up I can really let loose and let fly and it doesn't seem to bother him the way it does other people I know.

I am learning to say how I feel (which is a new thing for me) but it becomes this battle of feelings and the origination of feelings and who is making who feel what. At times it really makes my head spin.

could his sadistic tendencies translate to enjoyment in hurting you emotionally?

I admit to wondering about this. I admit to being new to these kinds of dynamics and perhaps I naively assumed that because we were simply friends we would not run into this issue, but I guess (especially now that I think of it) it is an instinct that runs beyond the bedroom, isn't it?

quite simply...yes I thing Doms and subs can be friends....I am a Dom and one of my closes friends is a sub.....

now we have had issues in the past....mostly on my end...I have know her for just over 5 years now and during at least 3 of the years I wanted deeply for her to submit to me...in a long term relationship sort of way

but she always said...Master I love you dearly and I think you are a firm and loving Dom...but we fit better as friends

in the end I have to admit..she was right

we have issues sometimes...simple things like I hate that she calls me Master less then she use to

sometimes I let things slide with her that I would not with subs that are mine...sometimes I know something is on her mind but she is not ready to tell me...so I have to wait or risk pushing too hard and shutting her down

do I ever get the urge to Dom her sure...I even pulled her over my lap and was ready to spank her for pouting at me once...

but for the most part we talk as friends...now and then..she will tell me I went to this play party and was treated as a pet..or I came for master 21 times last night...or master gave me new marks on my ass and I will talk over scenes or punishments that I have planed..but mostly we talk as friend...I am there for her when need and she is there for me...we listen to each other

we fight rarely...but when we do I have found that the fact that we are friends...helps to end conflict quickly....


she never tells me what to do she listens..and I rarely order her around...I listen and trust her judgement

Dom/sub and or BDSM is an interest we both share..but our friendship goes far beyond it

Do you find that you have to, or at least in the beginning had to, consciously fight against the Dom/sub dynamic? Or do you find that it still plays out just in perhaps a slightly lesser way than someone you are sexually involved with?


Thank you guys for the help. I am really struggling with how to handle this. I honestly care for this person. But lately it is growing confusing and very difficult to understand him and what is happening to our friendship.

 

[J D Danger]

Thinking back on it...early on it was like we were out of sync...I would say or do something and expect her to react as a sub would to a Dom she would not and we would fight....

or she would act very submissive and I would not react because I was use to talking to my friend....or as I said...I would let things slide with her that I would never let another sub get away with

but all of that just proves her point that we fit better as friends

but yes the Dom/sub relationship still plays out in small ways...she can stand up to me and express herself openly...but she hates to upset me or disappoint me in anyway....

when we get the chance to visit...I pull her into my lap to sit...if I felt the need or want to punish her..I am sure that her master would be ok with that..trusting of course that his limits for her and her personal limits were respected

I know for a fact that if I needed her to serve me in a non sexual way that would be fine too...mind you that could also be seen as just things friends do for each other

 

[Stella_Omega]

I see that someone else has already picked up on this, but I will point it out as well;

It seems like we can’t go more than a day or two without blowing up at each other. Well actually, it’s more like me losing it and him laughing at me.

You lose it in response to the things he says? This might very well be emotional sadism.

And since he's doing it without your prior informed consent-- it's not BDSM but good old fashioned abuse.

It may be that he doesn't think of it this way, and he might be mortified to realise what he's been doing. I like to think so. Talk it over with him. If he cannot see what the problem is, -- well. Guard yourself.

Even subs need to retain the right to their boundaries.

 

[knot_sweet]

Just my two cents but...

Perhaps it's the closeness of the friendship and the emotional intimacy of someone sharing and helping you along your path of self discovery that has you thinking maybe you could be more than friends.

Something along the lines of developing feelings for your therapist / doctor / teacher.

This is probably reinforced by the fact that a lot of your discoveries and emotional stuff have been discovered through inherently sexual activity. And no doubt discussed in depth with a person you know shares your interests in a compatible fashion.

You could give it a shot. It might work. It might not.

Could you go back to being friends if it doesn't work?

I'd say this has less to do with BDSM than the not so simple area of adult relationships. It's complicated by the BDSM aspect of course, but is just as likely to happen to anyone not of the PYL/pyl persuasion.


As an aside...I could offer warnings about this person grooming you to be a potential partner or domming you without your permission. But innocent until proven guilty, maybe he's just flirting with you in a way he knows will get your interest. Maybe he's not sending out signals at all and you're reading too much into it. We're women, we tend to do that.

Either way, I'd suggest straight up asking what the deal is. Friends are supposed to be able to do that.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Thinking back on it...early on it was like we were out of sync...I would say or do something and expect her to react as a sub would to a Dom she would not and we would fight....

or she would act very submissive and I would not react because I was use to talking to my friend....or as I said...I would let things slide with her that I would never let another sub get away with

but all of that just proves her point that we fit better as friends

but yes the Dom/sub relationship still plays out in small ways...she can stand up to me and express herself openly...but she hates to upset me or disappoint me in anyway....

when we get the chance to visit...I pull her into my lap to sit...if I felt the need or want to punish her..I am sure that her master would be ok with that..trusting of course that his limits for her and her personal limits were respected

I know for a fact that if I needed her to serve me in a non sexual way that would be fine too...mind you that could also be seen as just things friends do for each other

Maybe it is just a matter of finding that sync.. I am honestly stymied as this is a fairly new dynamic that is beginning to play out. We have never interacted as Dom and sub before. It has only really begun to come out as the issues that I was dealing with are resolving and I "lean" on him less for support and we interact more as equals. Does that make sense?

I see that someone else has already picked up on this, but I will point it out as well;
You lose it in response to the things he says? This might very well be emotional sadism.

And since he's doing it without your prior informed consent-- it's not BDSM but good old fashioned abuse.

It may be that he doesn't think of it this way, and he might be mortified to realise what he's been doing. I like to think so. Talk it over with him. If he cannot see what the problem is, -- well. Guard yourself.

Even subs need to retain the right to their boundaries.

I wonder if I am phrasing this properly. When I say "lose it" I mean when I lose my temper. When I get angry and tell him to "fuck off" or go to hell or something. In some ways it reminds me of a brother who annoys the fuck out of you just to push your buttons. Would you still clarify that as emotional sadism?

I will admit that this past week or so it has gotten to the point where I am starting to get upset more than angry. It may be simply that I am more emotional but at the same time I am noticing this dynamic happening more and more as we shift from me leaning on him for support in a time of upheaval to a more equal friendship.

Just my two cents but...

Perhaps it's the closeness of the friendship and the emotional intimacy of someone sharing and helping you along your path of self discovery that has you thinking maybe you could be more than friends.

Something along the lines of developing feelings for your therapist / doctor / teacher.

This is probably reinforced by the fact that a lot of your discoveries and emotional stuff have been discovered through inherently sexual activity. And no doubt discussed in depth with a person you know shares your interests in a compatible fashion.

You could give it a shot. It might work. It might not.

Could you go back to being friends if it doesn't work?

I'd say this has less to do with BDSM than the not so simple area of adult relationships. It's complicated by the BDSM aspect of course, but is just as likely to happen to anyone not of the PYL/pyl persuasion.


As an aside...I could offer warnings about this person grooming you to be a potential partner or domming you without your permission. But innocent until proven guilty, maybe he's just flirting with you in a way he knows will get your interest. Maybe he's not sending out signals at all and you're reading too much into it. We're women, we tend to do that.

Either way, I'd suggest straight up asking what the deal is. Friends are supposed to be able to do that.

Perhaps I should clarify. We are just friends. A sexual aspect is not a component of our friendship. He is not my Dom, nor am I his sub. And I don't get the sense that he is flirting.


My fear is that our natural inclinations are coming out but in a twisted platonic way. Like when we argue, he gets really Dom-ish (?) and I tend to react in a sub-ish (?) fashion. It normally takes me a minute to realize what is going on, before I can stop it and tell him to go to hell. But it is becoming more and more frequent the more we argue.


I know this is a weird dynamic. People say we argue like either an old married couple or like brother and sister. And I admit we do. At the heart of it I think as we move from just listening and commiserating with each other we are having communication issues. And one of those is the way we relate.

I do agree with you, it is past time to just lay it out and ask him what his deal is. I guess I just want to get a handle on my end, so to speak, before I engage in this discussion with him.

 

[njlauren]

Hard to say what is going on here, without knowing the full context and such, very hard to tell. There are people who are friends, with no sexual aspects whatsoever, who do exactly what you are talking about, they set each other off, hit triggers, etc, it is just their dynamic, it is a popular for characters and books and such,where they love the drama and so forth.

Sometimes that interplay indicates deeper things between people, sometimes two people who are attracted to each other but don't want to be play out that kind of scenario, where they act out with each other, deny the attraction, etc. Potentially it could be you aren't just friends, but pretend like you aren't, sort of like in the movie "When Harry Met Sally"...

One thought I have for you, and that it is very easy to attribute something we have suddenly become aware of. For example, you are attributing what is going on to you being sub and him being dom (or at least questioning it), but it IMO it is likely it may not have anything to do with that. When you talk about your sub nature possibly being attracted to his dom, it may be projecting that, because you are at a place and time where your sub identity is important to you, gives you comfort, etc. Obviously, a dom and sub can have an attraction for one another, but it is also possible to use our identity where it has nothing to do with things...I offer this simply as something to think about. It reminds me of when I was in my trans support group days, and I would go out to dinner with people from the group, and we would be talking about politics or some other thing, and someone would say "as a trans woman, I think blah blah blah" and we would be like "WTF? What does being trans have to do with an opinion about tax policy?" or whatever it was we were discussing......

 

[Stella_Omega]

I wonder if I am phrasing this properly. When I say "lose it" I mean when I lose my temper. When I get angry and tell him to "fuck off" or go to hell or something. In some ways it reminds me of a brother who annoys the fuck out of you just to push your buttons. Would you still clarify that as emotional sadism?

Yes, that is a very good description of emotional sadism.

 

[Velvet Bubbles]

Of course they can be friends. But I am concerned about the laughing at you part.

 

[intofdom]

Yup you can be friends.
No it seems your sexual role is not at all interfering here.
If you showed too much sub nature I don't think there would even be fights. He would command and you would just obey. You won't even question him.
So that means this is just a friendship.

 

[Riles]

The problem I am having is that one of the people I have become very close friends with is a Dom. Not only is he a Dom, he is a Sexual Sadist. Now, I really need to stress that we are friends.


Is it possible for a Dom and a sub to be friends? [laughs] Silly question I know, but I am hoping somebody can see what I am really asking. Has anyone else had a problem simply being close friends with a person whose sexual inclinations are a match for their own?

My turn for a silly question.

So....if you have this great connection, aside from some recent tension that may or may not be directly related to a desire for MORE, why exactly ARE you "just" friends?

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, but you have sized him up and considered the possibility of more. What's keeping him in the friends zone?

 

[blulilacgrl]

My turn for a silly question.

So....if you have this great connection, aside from some recent tension that may or may not be directly related to a desire for MORE, why exactly ARE you "just" friends?

It seems to me, and I could be wrong, but you have sized him up and considered the possibility of more. What's keeping him in the friends zone?

Oh jeez.. of all the information to forget. [laughs]

I am married. I am happily married. This friend and I met, not because of our sexual nature but due to a completely unrelated issue that we were in a way looking for a support group for. We didn't find out about the yin/yang of our sexual natures until we were quite a ways into our friendship and even then it has only recently begun to become something I am wondering if it is affecting the friendship. This is part of why I posted this question, was to see if anyone had had this affect a friendship.

He is a great friend in some ways. Very supportive, always there, and he does give really good advice. But in other ways he is the typical older, pain in the ass brother type. The kind that you want to scream at and go running to Mom about.

This is why there is no sexual component to our friendship. Because I am married. This is also why I am a little confused to see the dynamics playing out in this way. I am trying to figure out if it is because of our natures and inclinations OR is it just natural bullshit, ya know?

Although the more I thought about it last night and the more I talked with hubby, I think that it is simply a nature thing. I think that as we move from me leaning on him during this really difficult time, he is still trying to give me advice. But it is advice I do not need nor am I asking for. This is causing me to "rebel" ~ to go from this "Wow, thank you, that's a really good idea" to a "No, thanks. I don't think that's what I want to do" person. Okay and I admit sometimes to a "Who the fuck asked you?" person. And I think when I don't just accept his advice or whatever, he instinctively is trying to "make" me. He is trying to argue me into it. Of course all for my own good, right? But the thing is when he argues he really goes for the jugular. He can get pretty intense and pretty harsh.

But regardless of the motivations, it needs to stop. We are friends, not Dom/sub not even boyfriend/girlfriend. And Stella is right a sub/friend/anybody has a right to boundaries. I have told my brother to fuck off and it looks like I need to define a few lines to X as well. I don't want to make him sound horrible. For all of his flaws, he does have some pretty amazing qualities. I don't think this is intentional on his part, so I will make my feelings and boundaries clear and see how that works.

Thank you for all of your help. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and advice.

 

[Riles]

Oh jeez.. of all the information to forget. [laughs]

I am married. I am happily married. This friend and I met, not because of our sexual nature but due to a completely unrelated issue that we were in a way looking for a support group for. We didn't find out about the yin/yang of our sexual natures until we were quite a ways into our friendship and even then it has only recently begun to become something I am wondering if it is affecting the friendship. This is part of why I posted this question, was to see if anyone had had this affect a friendship.

He is a great friend in some ways. Very supportive, always there, and he does give really good advice. But in other ways he is the typical older, pain in the ass brother type. The kind that you want to scream at and go running to Mom about.

This is why there is no sexual component to our friendship. Because I am married. This is also why I am a little confused to see the dynamics playing out in this way. I am trying to figure out if it is because of our natures and inclinations OR is it just natural bullshit, ya know?

Although the more I thought about it last night and the more I talked with hubby, I think that it is simply a nature thing. I think that as we move from me leaning on him during this really difficult time, he is still trying to give me advice. But it is advice I do not need nor am I asking for. This is causing me to "rebel" ~ to go from this "Wow, thank you, that's a really good idea" to a "No, thanks. I don't think that's what I want to do" person. Okay and I admit sometimes to a "Who the fuck asked you?" person. And I think when I don't just accept his advice or whatever, he instinctively is trying to "make" me. He is trying to argue me into it. Of course all for my own good, right? But the thing is when he argues he really goes for the jugular. He can get pretty intense and pretty harsh.

But regardless of the motivations, it needs to stop. We are friends, not Dom/sub not even boyfriend/girlfriend. And Stella is right a sub/friend/anybody has a right to boundaries. I have told my brother to fuck off and it looks like I need to define a few lines to X as well. I don't want to make him sound horrible. For all of his flaws, he does have some pretty amazing qualities. I don't think this is intentional on his part, so I will make my feelings and boundaries clear and see how that works.

Thank you for all of your help. I really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and advice.

Granted, I am totally wet behind the ears for some of what you are expressing, but I believe this has much less to do with any kind of predilections towards bdsm, and everything to do with a friend over stepping boundaries due to jealousy or a feelings of being unappreciated. And that can usually be easily solved by a cautious reminder of those boundaries, or just some quality time between friends to reassure that their position and meaning in your life hasn't changed simply because you don't need to lean on them as much. Unless of course he thrives on a co-dependent relationship....


Anyhow. Hopefully all will be resolved for you both and you can return to your usual status.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Granted, I am totally wet behind the ears for some of what you are expressing, but I believe this has much less to do with any kind of predilections towards bdsm, and everything to do with a friend over stepping boundaries due to jealousy or a feelings of being unappreciated. And that can usually be easily solved by a cautious reminder of those boundaries, or just some quality time between friends to reassure that their position and meaning in your life hasn't changed simply because you don't need to lean on them as much. Unless of course he thrives on a co-dependent relationship....


Anyhow. Hopefully all will be resolved for you both and you can return to your usual status.

No, I think you are right. I think that he is used to being "in charge" and that most of our friendship as revolved around him being mostly strong for me. As that changes we are undergoing a shift and simply trying to find our feet.

As I talked to hubby last night, he pointed out that I am seeing how my submissive nature shows through in a lot of unexpected ways, but that doesn't necessarily hold true in every case. The thing here is to relax and treat him like the brother/friend he is and not focus on the other aspect of his personality.

Thank you so much for everything.

 

[Primalex]

a brother who annoys the fuck out of you just to push your buttons.

Yes, that is a very good description of emotional sadism.

No, it lacks the most important thing:
Deliberate intention to inflict emotional pain for pleasure.


(The act of corporal punishment is not sufficient to label the punisher a sadist, although sadists might use corporal punishment.)

 

[Stella_Omega]

No, it lacks the most important thing:
Deliberate intention to inflict emotional pain for pleasure.

That's the "just to push your buttons" part.

 

[rds_muskrat]

Apparently not in the case where the dom is a "sadist" as the thread OP states. He sounds like a true sadist in that he is inflicting emotional pain on her and who knows what he would do or be like in person? In my view, a dom isn't a cruel taskmaster or pain inflicter but rather someone who truly understands what the particular sub in his/her relationship needs...and provides that. If the sub is asking any questions there are flaws in the relationship...she is a sub after all, not a slave or painslut. So, my answer is YES...but certainly not in the case this thread addresses.

 

[njlauren]

Sounds to me from the later posts that he is simply asserting himself, putting himself into the 'top dog position', not out of being dom, but rather simply a person trying to assert himself in the relationship. Since he is a friend/older brother role, the answer is simply to assert boundaries, when he makes you feel bad, if he laughs at you, you tell him if he values your friendship, to knock it off, that that is unacceptable. If he is any kind of friend, he will respect the limits, if he is an asshole, gets his nose bent out of joint, tells you you don't have the right, tell him to fuck off and die (or in a nicer way, as you wish). Boundaries are normal things, for everyone other then cats that is

 

[J D Danger]

this has been brought up already but I do think he is feeling out of sync...like you need him less...maybe even like his role with you is vanishing

The same thing happened with me and my friend....when she called and told me about the new master she was seeing

I did not know him well...but I had heard of him...read some of his writings on the Dom/sub relationship and grown to not only respect him but feel that we were very much alike

so when she told me...I am now seeing...so an so...my first thought was...well she won't need me anymore...she found a better version of me....

I think we went 3 days without talking(back then we were calling each other nightly so it was alot)

I woke up on the 3rd day and said to myself I can't do this I have no place in her life I have to call her tell her how I feel and move on

the phone rang 5 mins later ..she needed to talk and as we talked I came to see that I was being selfish and that even if she did not need me as much I would always have a place in her life...I would always be that dearly loved friend

as one or two other posters have said..maybe he just needs that kind of talk or time with you...to be certain he still has a place in your life

 

[Primalex]

In my view, a dom isn't a cruel taskmaster or pain inflicter but rather someone who truly understands what the particular sub in his/her relationship needs...and provides that. If the sub is asking any questions there are flaws in the relationship

Thank you for your point of view. Please come back when you know what you are talking about.

 

[blulilacgrl]

Okay. Just wanted to post an update for all of you who helped me sort my thoughts and gave some really great advice.

Talked with my friend today. God! First time in a long time when we didn't fuss and fight. We actually did work out limits and boundaries. He was very calm and accepting of what I said were my limits. I was beginning to think that perhaps I had over analyzed the problem. Not that I would ever do that!

Then it comes to light. For the past two weeks, it seems he has been wrestling with a few problems that he has not really been sharing with me. To be honest, he had mentioned it and we had talked about it. I thought that the issue was at least somewhat resolved. Apparently it was not, at least not until today. And in typical freaking male fashion, after a year of me leaning on his shoulder~ crying, raging and needing his advice~ he returns the favor by keeping his fears and concerns bottled up. Choosing instead to fuss and fight with me. Grrr...

So, yes. I will admit it. You guys were right. The issue was more a guy/girl communication thing than a Dom/sub thing.

However, I do want to say 'thank you'. Your posts did help me to sit down and decide upon boundaries and limits that I need to put into place even within the context of a friendship. I really appreciate the time and patience you guys had with me.