Torture poll

[xssve]

Sounds more like laziness to me, torture is an easy out for people who aren't smart enough to do anything else.

I prefer not to subsidize lazy ass sadists to put it in the most diplomatic way.

If I wanted that, I'd move to Iran.

 

[xssve]

This is what disturbs me more than anything about the right: their tendency to reduce complex situations down to pat, prosaic cliches. It's pure fucking intellectual laziness, they just can't be bothered to actually put any thought into anything, and its why they invariably end up shitting the bed.

They don't solve problems, they play politics and create new problems for somebody else to deal with.

I'm sick of it.

 

[wmrs2]

XXSVE

It isnt torture if the action has an outcome apart from the infliction of pain and suffering.

And whining about interrogations wont stop them. We need the information, some people are defiant, and we're forced to use techniques that work.

A very excellent point. Sometimes the withholding of torture, violence and war can lead to wider and more extreme violence than possibly imaginable. In 1939
Neville Chamberlain said: Yet I believe after my talks with Herr Hitler that, if only time were allowed, it ought to be possible for the arrangements for transferring the territory that the Czech Government has agreed to give to Germany to be settled by agreement under conditions which would assure fair treatment to the population concerned. . . .[ (Neville Chamberlain, In Search of Peace (1939), p. 393; and Parliamentary Debates, House of Commons (London: HMSO, 1938) vol. 339, 12th vol. of session 1937-1938, pp. 361-369, 373.])

Chamberlin did not understand the type of person Hitler was. He found out too late. We know what type of people the terrorist are, many of whom are Muslim terrorist who are not only bent on world domination but on destroying the way Americans think.

To Muslim nations Herr Hitler is a hero. They liked his thought processes. Our enemies today follow Hitler's line of thinking. The terrorist are willing to praise Obama for being a gracious world leader and dangerous dictators are willing to flatter Obama as long as he tolerates their "small" differences. Do you really think the world is upset with the enhanced methods of interrogation that Bush used with terrorist? Don't be foolish. What the terrorist want is for us to not know what their plans are for our country - the Great Satan.

We know damn well what they plan for us. They do not hate us because we use torture. They hate us because we have more than one car parked in our drive ways, washing machines and air conditioning in our homes, and plenty of food on our tables. All these things that come to us because of our capitalist way of thinking. is what they hate. They not only hate us for the way we think, they hate us for the fact that we tell them we like the way we think. They love Obama because he is willing to give the world everything we Americans have earned and will keep his mouth shut about freedom and human rights. Obama will not hurt their feelings by stating that he loves freedom but is quick to point out that in the past America has been too intolerant of terrorist and cheap dictators. That attitude is changing.

That is a characteristic of all terrorist and bigots. It is not the fact that we disagree with bigots but we say we disagree. Miss California agreed with traditional American values and when she said she agreed with these values and attempted to live by these values, the socialist terrorist of our society decided she should step down as Miss California. She has said "no" to this request to the outrage of those who want to change the way America thinks. That also is the difference between liberals and conservatives. That is also the difference between LBJAmicMrs and many people on this forum.

 

[xssve]

Hitler, blah, blah. The radical Salafists have much less support in the Muslim world than you imagine - in fact, historically, there has been little love for religious extremists of any sort at any period in history, they just happen to be a handy pawn for secular power mongering.

Nor are they a scientific and manufacturing powerhouse like Germany was, the average Muslim simply isn't that motivated to take over the world, it's a handful of malcontents, just like you.

If this wasn't true, we'd already have been kicked out of the Middle East completely, believe it.

I don't think a theocratic regime has ever gained, or held power though popular consensus.

You're a bunch of fucking killjoys, it's always going to be a hard sell for you.

 

[wmrs2]

Hitler, blah, blah. The radical Salafists have much less support in the Muslim world than you imagine - in fact, historically, there has been little love for religious extremists of any sort at any period in history, they just happen to be a handy pawn for secular power mongering.

Nor are they a scientific and manufacturing powerhouse like Germany was, the average Muslim simply isn't that motivated to take over the world, it's a handful of malcontents, just like you.

If this wasn't true, we'd already have been kicked out of the Middle East completely, believe it.

I don't think a theocratic regime has ever gained, or held power though popular consensus.

You're a bunch of fucking killjoys, it's always going to be a hard sell for you.

Would all the blind people line up over here behind xssve. She is the blind guide for today.

Hitler ruled Germany with the consent of the populace. He may not be your hero but he has had a profound effect on the liberals who really try hard to shut down difference of opinion especially here on Litero.

As nice and Christian as I have been to the liberals, the depressed and mentally disordered on this forum, I have been told to drop dead and go away. These same people who oppose any type of torture or cruelty to others have suspended their high morals in dealing with us sound reasoning conservatives. How about sharing this liberal love with us real people too.

 

[xssve]

Germany was a Christian country, if I'm not mistaken. In other words, he couldn't have done it without nice Christian ladies.

 

[sr71plt]

"As nice and Christian as I have been to the liberals"

Bullshit.

 

[freshface]

Hitler ruled Germany with the consent of the populace. He may not be your hero but he has had a profound effect on the liberals who really try hard to shut down difference of opinion especially here on Litero.

Sorry, but no. Nazi Germany is actually an example of the effectiveness of torture in controlling a population. Hitler never received more than 37% of the vote in Germany. He was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg and immediately went to work consolidating power, made easier by the weak government established by the Treaty of Versailles. In the early days, people who opposed him found themselves dead. The Nazi message to the Germans was quite clear. "Work hard and stay out of politics and we'll leave you alone and protect you from the anarchists and Communists.. Oppose us and expect a visit from the Gestapo and imprisonment in Dachau."

As for behaving in a Christian manner? We're still waiting for you to be nice or Christian.

 

[Corylea]

I didn't read the extensive clarifications in the first post before I voted on the poll. Oh. If we're only talking about governments, that changes things. Governments should not engage in torture, period.

Why am I willing to allow a little wiggle room for individuals, if not for governments? There's no government that I trust to make good decisions about such an important matter. I don't trust oh-so-many individuals with that power, either, but well, I read this novel, and yes, it's a fictional situation, but something like it could happen. It was certainly a, uh, memorable situation, and I felt a bit traumatized, just reading about it.

The situation is this: our heroine is sheltering someone that the Bad Guys want dead, and they told her to hand that person over, and naturally, she wouldn't. So they kidnapped her fiance's mother and brother, sent our heroine a box with the mother's ear in it, and said, "We'll send you a piece at a time until you hand this person over so that we can kill them."

The thing is, they sent this by messenger. They thought they had her over a barrel, so they sent one of their guys to deliver this thing. Our heroine asked the messenger where the hostages were being held, and naturally he refused to answer. She broke one of his fingers and told him that she'd be glad to break as many of them as necessary, until he told her where they were. Eventually he told her. She rescued the hostages. Her fiance was glad to have his mother back but couldn't stand the thought of what our heroine had to do to get her. (Why yes, sometimes I do read trashy novels. )

Would I have wanted the heroine to hand over an innocent person to be killed? No. Would I have wanted her to let her fiance's mother be vivisected? No. Did I think it was right for her to break the bad guy's fingers to make him tell her where the hostages were being held? Yes, I'm afraid I do.

It's things like that that make me steer clear of words like "always" and "never." I'm against torture in 99% of cases, but I hesitate to say "always" because of the occasional odd situation.


And yes, I know this thread is supposed to be about governments, but I didn't know that until I voted. Then, having voted, I didn't want anyone to think that my desire to take context into account meant that I thought it was okay for governments to engage in torture. I apologize for the digression.

 

[shereads]

Sorry, but no. Nazi Germany is actually an example of the effectiveness of torture in controlling a population. Hitler never received more than 37% of the vote in Germany. He was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg and immediately went to work consolidating power, made easier by the weak government established by the Treaty of Versailles. In the early days, people who opposed him found themselves dead. The Nazi message to the Germans was quite clear. "Work hard and stay out of politics and we'll leave you alone and protect you from the anarchists and Communists.. Oppose us and expect a visit from the Gestapo and imprisonment in Dachau."

As for behaving in a Christian manner? We're still waiting for you to be nice or Christian.

I stopped waiting for something that clearly cannot happen, when wmr2icus began trolling the thread about chronic depression and mental illness. It has no conscience. Some of us have it t on Ignore and would appreciate it others wouldn't quote it fully when responding.

 

[xssve]

Good point Corylea - and this was my take on it from the beginning: if you really think torture is going to save lives and you're doing for your country or whatever - if your really believe it's the right thing to do, then you should do it, and accept the consequences - but there should be consequences. If you aren't willing to take the fall, to put your life, reputation, etc., on the line, then how necessary is it?

The alternative is to give blanket permission to people to do whatever they want without being held accountable, or having to justify it in each and every case.

You get Abu Graib - moral relativism, I think they call that.

 

[amicus]

This is what disturbs me more than anything about the right: their tendency to reduce complex situations down to pat, prosaic cliches. It's pure fucking intellectual laziness, they just can't be bothered to actually put any thought into anything, and its why they invariably end up shitting the bed.

They don't solve problems, they play politics and create new problems for somebody else to deal with.

I'm sick of it.

~~~

Poor, poor xssve, after posting page upon page of vacuous inanities in anecdotal explanation of why it is more efficient to address moral and ethical issues from a situational, relativistic basis as opposed to a rational, axiom based, scientific methodological approach, now implies that the effort to reduce complex situation to manageable concepts and abstractions, is an example of intellectual laziness.

Go figure.

As if by comparing the methods empirically observed of a million monkeys in a zoo will yield even a faint clue as to the origin of moral choices.

gimme a break.


amicus...

 

[freshface]

I stopped waiting for something that clearly cannot happen, when wmr2icus began trolling the thread about chronic depression and mental illness. It has no conscience. Some of us have it t on Ignore and would appreciate it others wouldn't quote it fully when responding.

Sorry. I gave up on it back in the Atheist thread, and realized it was evil when it trolled the depression thread. I did trim down what I quoted, but should have trimmed that last sentence too. I'll try to be better in the future.

 

[sr71plt]

Sorry, gang, but it's really hard and confusing to respond to specific postings without quoting them. Clarity is what the quote mechanism was designed for. This ignore business is really your personal responsibility isn't it?--you could simply not read when you see the name pop up. You've got to do some of the lifting for yourself.

 

[freshface]

Sorry, gang, but it's really hard and confusing to respond to specific postings without quoting them. Clarity is what the quote mechanism was designed for. This ignore business is really your personal responsibility isn't it?--you could simply not read when you see the name pop up. You've got to do some of the lifting for yourself.

True, but I do make an effort to trim out the unnecessary bits when I'm quoting a troll. I also make an effort not to be baited by them, but I'm not always strong enough.

 

[xssve]

~~~

Poor, poor xssve, after posting page upon page of vacuous inanities in anecdotal explanation of why it is more efficient to address moral and ethical issues from a situational, relativistic basis as opposed to a rational, axiom based, scientific methodological approach, now implies that the effort to reduce complex situation to manageable concepts and abstractions, is an example of intellectual laziness.

Go figure.

As if by comparing the methods empirically observed of a million monkeys in a zoo will yield even a faint clue as to the origin of moral choices.

gimme a break.


amicus...

Because not two situations are the same, moron - pretending like they are is intellectual laziness.

 

[sr71plt]

Because not two situations are the same, moron - pretending like they are is intellectual laziness.

Oh, but, Amicus zipped right to intellectual dishonesty.

 

[amicus]

]Because not two situations are the same, moron - pretending like they are is intellectual laziness.[/I]

~~~

And a million people brought to tears by the voice of the Brit 47 year old woman, Susan Boyle didn't happen, and that every one in the world who looks up at a blue sky, identifies it as a 'blue' sky.

Your continued proclamations of faith in subjective thinking are as ludicrous as any religious zealots ever was.

Go ahead, walk through a wall, it isn't really there anyway; as there is no objective, absolute truths, just figments of your imagination.

Amicus

 

[wmrs2]

"As nice and Christian as I have been to the liberals"

Bullshit.

When we first met, you said that you were a Christian. I had so much faith in you, then last night when you so lovingly told me to drop dead, I realized that you did not love me. To think that you would oppose torturing terrorist but can't show any love to me. Oh! You are so right, it is a fucked up world.

 

[wmrs2]

Sorry, but no. Nazi Germany is actually an example of the effectiveness of torture in controlling a population. Hitler never received more than 37% of the vote in Germany. He was appointed Chancellor by President Hindenburg and immediately went to work consolidating power, made easier by the weak government established by the Treaty of Versailles. In the early days, people who opposed him found themselves dead. The Nazi message to the Germans was quite clear. "Work hard and stay out of politics and we'll leave you alone and protect you from the anarchists and Communists.. Oppose us and expect a visit from the Gestapo and imprisonment in Dachau."

As for behaving in a Christian manner? We're still waiting for you to be nice or Christian.

Freshfart, what did I ever do to you? You are 100% correct about your old budddy Herr Hitler. The liberals on the AH have pattern themselves after his lifestyle, especially those who want to shut down democratic debate like all the members of RABD.

 

[wmrs2]

I stopped waiting for something that clearly cannot happen, when wmr2icus began trolling the thread about chronic depression and mental illness. It has no conscience. Some of us have it t on Ignore and would appreciate it others wouldn't quote it fully when responding.

I know that sheradds says she has me on ignore but she will hear somehow every word of my response; nevertheless, if anybody is interested, you can judge for yourself who has taken the high ground in issues regarding shereads.

I have a thread that discussed how people formed their opinions about matters of life, politics and religion. There has been over 170 responses to this thread. Shereads and her friends made at least 168 of the replies. They said not one word relating to the subject of the thread. The entire posts were personal insults and outright boasting about how they had captured my thread, had destroyed and referred to my thread as having been taken over by the gang from AH.

It was a hopelss situation. I left my own thread and visited the thread on depression and other mental disorders. I have worked in the mental health field and have published materials there that has been used in several hospitals that treat mental illnesses. It was my intention to share some of my experiences with the group there.

What did I find? Most all the people who had savagely and with cruelty destroyed my thread were on the depression and mental disorder thread. I knew immediately what the problem was. People who have mental illness do not get generally better if they refuse to follow their doctor's advice and the advice of mental health professionals. Especially if the person goes off medication without consulting a doctor is this true.

All these people who had sever and completely mature oppositional defiant disorders were sharing depressed feelings with each other and reinforcing their very aggressive behavior traits. It is their nature to hate somebody and I have become their target. Many of these same people have responded to me here, not from their intellectual opposition but from their deep mental disturbances. Also, I am somewhat sarcastic and make a good target. Whatever interest you have in a pissing contest and turd throwing contest, you can check it out on the two threads listed by Shreads and me.

If for any reason these people come after you, don't worry about it. There is nothing you can say, no apology you can give, no sympathy you can show that will dissuade them. I suggest you do like me, it is a game and a joke. Either ignore them or lough it off. They will be like this until they get some help.

 

[NoJo]

There's a fine line between torture and just a really badly performed school musical

 

[wmrs2]

Good point Corylea - and this was my take on it form the beginning: if you really think torture is going to save lives and you're doing for your country or whatever - if your really believe it's the right thing to do, then you should do it, and accept the consequences - but there should be consequences. If you aren't willing to take the fall, to put your life, reputation, etc., on the line, then how necessary is it?

The alternative is to give blanket permission to people to do whatever they want without being held accountable, or having to justify it in each and every case.

You get Abu Graib - moral relativism, I think they call that.

You are very confused. You are not torturing, you are saving lives. This has been pointed out several times today on all news medias. The information gained from torture victims has saved lives especially in California where plots were prevented to mature that would have resulted in 1,000's of deaths of innocent people.

Tell the mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters of the victims in the Trade Towers that you could have saved their lives but, on matters of principle, you had to allow these innocent people to die. Now that is moral relativist logic.
Sorry, I don't swallow it. Americans are not going to swallow it. Only terrorist like the outcome of your logic.

The alternative is not to give blanket permission to people to do whatever they want. That is what you say but it is not true. Abu Graib is not an example of our national policy on torture. That is a rhetorical statement. Torture has been used by the USA with many restraints. That is the truth and you know it.

 

[cloudy]

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n124/phyde1987/ignoranttrash.jpg

 

[wmrs2]

Sorry. I gave up on it back in the Atheist thread, and realized it was evil when it trolled the depression thread. I did trim down what I quoted, but should have trimmed that last sentence too. I'll try to be better in the future.

See everybody! He has been holding a grudge since the Atheist thread. With an oppositional defiant disorder, one can not let go. The manufacturing of stress is an addiction to these people. They are not angry because intellectual conflict. It is in their nature to hurt others and chase somebody around the forum as an emotional catharsis for themselves.

Do you feel better? Did you get it off your chest? Are you having fun yet? I know this will make you angry but have a nice day.