Christian Submissives: Brainwashed?

[rosco rathbone]

Getting into the Writer Dom spirit of things here....

I've been reading some blogs and comments on the subject of CDD. For instance:

I'm torn.

On the one hand, I believe that all people are ultimately able to make up their own minds about what they want done to their bodies (after all, we justify letting women get abortions because we say that we know our own minds and aren't the emotional airheads the patriarchy claims). That part of me wants to just say "the women on this site have consented to this lifestyle; it's no different to me enjoying a good lashing with rose stems, except they give the concept a religious bent".

On the other hand, I know that, sometimes, if you're taught to act a certain way from the day you are born (submissive, meek, obedient towards men) you may well say that you consent, or think you want something, when you don't. Like child prostitutes who don't run away, because the lifestyle is all they've known and because they can't imagine really escaping. Consent can only really be considered consent if there is no risk in saying "no", no guilt or loss of value perceived in refusing, and no consequences. Also, what is the point to saying "yes" or "no" when you know damn well he's gonna do it anyway?

According to some, if you come from a Christian background, then you lack the capacity for free choice and consent.

A: "I'm into submitting to my husband"
B: "Cool. Sounds kinky."
A:"Forgot to mention, I was raised Christian. My dad was a preacher".
B: "Whoa! You are being abused!"

Is this sketchy? Where do we draw the line?

Links:

http://feministing.com/archives/007603.html
http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/christian-spanking-porn/277

 

[graceanne]

And, for the record, I wasn't raised Christian.

 

[00Syd]

Guh... Desperately... fighting... prejudices...

[insert Incredible Hulk-like internal battle here]

*sound of ripping clothing*

 

[FurryFury]

The words Christian and brainwashed seem to go together quite naturally in my mind.

Submissive and Christian raising don't in my mind go together naturally. They might, and they might not.

BTW, I was raised Christian, though some would say it was a cult rather than "real" Christian religion, but nonetheless.

 

[the captians wench]

I was raised in a very strict biblical house hold. I tease my mom some times and say she raised me to be submissive. She doesn't take too kindly to that.

She once told me that yes she raised me to be obediant to my husband who would ideally be obediant to God's will. She also added "I just never thought you would take it so far".

I've always said that I knew my upbringing has a great deal to do with the choices I make in how I live my life now. Hell it's shaped my personality so how can it not? I don't however think that my upbringing has influenced me to the point where I am not fully conscience of my choices nor does it hender my ability to consent either. That's like saying some one raised in a totally liberal and or feminist to the point of superiority house hold is not able to fully consent to the idea of being a domme.

 

[WriterDom]

A spanking a day is good for any ho.

 

[HoHoBomb]

http://www.planet-plg.com/images/nunsuckingdick.jpg​

 

[HoHoBomb]

http://www.planet-plg.com/images/nunridingbigcock.jpg​

 

[Netzach]

Getting into the Writer Dom spirit of things here....

I've been reading some blogs and comments on the subject of CDD. For instance:



According to some, if you come from a Christian background, then you lack the capacity for free choice and consent.

A: "I'm into submitting to my husband"
B: "Cool. Sounds kinky."
A:"Forgot to mention, I was raised Christian. My dad was a preacher".
B: "Whoa! You are being abused!"

Is this sketchy? Where do we draw the line?

Links:

http://feministing.com/archives/007603.html
http://blog.blowfish.com/culture/christian-spanking-porn/277

Not buying it.

There are always women in the most patriarchal of traditions who make a way for themselves, leave, synthesize, go stark raving crazy, or get killed if they must, but do not rest easily in a submissive paradigm.

It doesn't take a religion to make crazy people raise a child to be submissive. And it only takes genetic lotto to make it impossible. *raises hand as living proof*

So my point is that the idea that these people are pre-programmed nonconsensually by their worldview when it comes to this one thing is no more or less earth-shattering that the people freaked out are pre-programmed nonconsensually by their worldview to have their butts pucker over it.

Point being, if it wasn't fulfilling on SOME level to these people, they'd never consent to it. I know I wouldn't. If they weren't giant pervs even if they'd never call themselves that, it wouldn't work out for them whatsoever. Let's give women some shred of credibility for agency - this isn't Tehran, and even there, you'd be amazed.

 

[JMohegan]

Not buying it.

There are always women in the most patriarchal of traditions who make a way for themselves, leave, synthesize, go stark raving crazy, or get killed if they must, but do not rest easily in a submissive paradigm.

Some even escape from Mormon polygamist compounds.


On a related note, I've got a question. Are we talking about everybody into the Jesus thing here? Or do the blogs and commentary on CDD distinguish between, say, Episcopalians and Huckabee's folks.

This is dizzying, check it out:


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/branches.png

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/protestants.png

 

[Netzach]

Some even escape from Mormon polygamist compounds.


On a related note, I've got a question. Are we talking about everybody into the Jesus thing here? Or do the blogs and commentary on CDD distinguish between, say, Episcopalians and Huckabee's folks.

This is dizzying, check it out:


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/branches.png

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/protestants.png

Where's New Thought? Or Unitarians? Why only the hardliners?

 

[JMohegan]

Where's New Thought? Or Unitarians? Why only the hardliners?

You mean it's actually *more* complicated?

Sorry, I should have added my source.

 

[Netzach]

I know this is upsetting to traditional feminists, but I don't think how you like to fuck is or isn't feminist.

I think getting to fuck how you like to fuck (or be fucked how you like to be fucked or NOT be fucked how you like NOT to be fucked - take your variation) is feminist. But my Dominance makes me no more or less feminist than the nastiest bootlicking bitchpig of SM.

 

[Netzach]

You mean it's actually *more* complicated?

Sorry, I should have added my source.

Well, there *is* a Christian left. And not all of it are lib-theo Catholic nuns. Oh OK, I see 'em in there, the Unity and MCC people. I'm happy now.

 

[WriterDom]

There is a lot of diversity in Christianity. A Presbyterian minister needs seven years of college. A Baptist minister can drop out of high school. Methodists are Baptists who can read.

 

[JMohegan]

Well, there *is* a Christian left. And not all of it are lib-theo Catholic nuns. Oh OK, I see 'em in there, the Unity and MCC people. I'm happy now.

The Christian left folks in my neck of the woods are Episcopalian. The idea that they would be raising girls to be submissive, meek, and obedient is nothing short of asinine.


As an aside, does anyone know what the heck "sacrificial leadership" means in this context?

"Huckabee had been asked on the TV show about his support of the Baptist convention's statement of beliefs on marriage. The former Arkansas governor and his wife Janet signed a full-page ad in USA Today in support of the statement with 129 other evangelical leaders in 1998.

'A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ,' the convention says in its statement of faith. Baptist Press reported that the 1998 ad was addressed to denomination leaders and said: 'You are right because you called wives to graciously submit to their husband's sacrificial leadership.' "

 

[Netzach]

The Christian left folks in my neck of the woods are Episcopalian. The idea that they would be raising girls to be submissive, meek, and obedient is nothing short of asinine.


As an aside, does anyone know what the heck "sacrificial leadership" means in this context?

"Huckabee had been asked on the TV show about his support of the Baptist convention's statement of beliefs on marriage. The former Arkansas governor and his wife Janet signed a full-page ad in USA Today in support of the statement with 129 other evangelical leaders in 1998.

'A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ,' the convention says in its statement of faith. Baptist Press reported that the 1998 ad was addressed to denomination leaders and said: 'You are right because you called wives to graciously submit to their husband's sacrificial leadership.' "

I think this is basically that it's really really tough to be the leader/breadwinner (often these guys are, though not always, see Sarah Palin) and to be the person in charge of the public life of your relationship. Inasmuch as some people's idea of real M/s not the shoddy stuff I do with H consists of someone really steering every single major life decision while someone else stokes the homefire and this can be F/m M/s too, I'd say fuck yeah, that is sacrificial.

It also may have something to do with being Christlike, though I can't fathom that anyone's really comparing deciding whether to move or not with being crucified?

As for Huckabee, I really don't care if someone believes in their private life that we are sneezed out of the nose of Baal. I thought the wide Youtubing of Palin in church as evidence of her being unfit was unfair.

But I think that creating public policy for people who don't share your beliefs based on your beliefs makes you unfit for office. Stick to budgeting and appropriations, do what's actually good for your constituents, and quit making so many Statements. Sometimes I want to run for office just to try and make Saturday the official Sabbath.

 

[JMohegan]

I think this is basically that it's really really tough to be the leader/breadwinner (often these guys are, though not always, see Sarah Palin) and to be the person in charge of the public life of your relationship. Inasmuch as some people's idea of real M/s not the shoddy stuff I do with H consists of someone really steering every single major life decision while someone else stokes the homefire and this can be F/m M/s too, I'd say fuck yeah, that is sacrificial.

Oh, okay. Thanks, that actually makes sense.

 

[intothewoods]

I think this is basically that it's really really tough to be the leader/breadwinner (often these guys are, though not always, see Sarah Palin) and to be the person in charge of the public life of your relationship. Inasmuch as some people's idea of real M/s not the shoddy stuff I do with H consists of someone really steering every single major life decision while someone else stokes the homefire and this can be F/m M/s too, I'd say fuck yeah, that is sacrificial.

It also may have something to do with being Christlike, though I can't fathom that anyone's really comparing deciding whether to move or not with being crucified?

I was thinking that it's all about sacrifice to Jesus. The wife submits to the husband and they are both submitting to Jesus. Like a pyramid scheme.

 

[HarlotMinx]

But my Dominance makes me no more or less feminist than the nastiest bootlicking bitchpig of SM.

You called?

I'd agree fully. One of the things a lot of feminists forget is that the feminist movement gives women the right to be stay in the kitchen, bare foot, baby popping mothers. It also allows them to be high power executives, it's more of the ability to make your own choices rather than a judgment of what you make of those choices. And I'll have it be known that my boot licking is my way of putting up a public protest against the unjust actions of the patriarchy!

And on another note, I also notice there's no Religious Society of Friends on the diagram.

 

[Netzach]

Incidentally, technically the best things I can do are to make a happy home for my husband, cover my eyes when I light my candles and pop out boy babies for Israel, but if I actually mention that I'm Jewish no one is always nagging me about this.

Well except for some really asshole Pagans a few times. I killed the Goddess or something.

 

[WriterDom]

But the other half is that the husband must love his wife as he loves the church. To me that doesn't sound like he can lead her around on a leash. Unless she's into it.

 

[JMohegan]

As for Huckabee, I really don't care if someone believes in their private life that we are sneezed out of the nose of Baal. I thought the wide Youtubing of Palin in church as evidence of her being unfit was unfair.

But I think that creating public policy for people who don't share your beliefs based on your beliefs makes you unfit for office. Stick to budgeting and appropriations, do what's actually good for your constituents, and quit making so many Statements. Sometimes I want to run for office just to try and make Saturday the official Sabbath.

I agree on all counts.

I quoted Huckabee as evidence for the apparent Baptist push for female submissiveness. The convention statement doesn't mean anyone actually follows it, though. Hard to tell what actually goes on in Baptist kitchens and bedrooms, 'cause I've never been there.

 

[Netzach]

But the other half is that the husband must love his wife as he loves the church. To me that doesn't sound like he can lead her around on a leash. Unless she's into it.

St. Paul assumed a LOT of love for the Church or really didn't care much for women.

 

[Netzach]

You called?

I'd agree fully. One of the things a lot of feminists forget is that the feminist movement gives women the right to be stay in the kitchen, bare foot, baby popping mothers. It also allows them to be high power executives, it's more of the ability to make your own choices rather than a judgment of what you make of those choices. And I'll have it be known that my boot licking is my way of putting up a public protest against the unjust actions of the patriarchy!

And on another note, I also notice there's no Religious Society of Friends on the diagram.

I agree with this sort of. My relativism stops somewhere.

I think it's perfectly fine to choose your adventure, barefoot, pregnant, sewing, cooking, doing ALL those much maligned and devalued things that need to be done in the world.

I get OFF the wagon when you start suggesting that I have gone awry because I'm not and I need more of your life in my life.

Then your choice loses my support. Then you are part of my problem.

What really bugs me is that because I've chosen my path, I'm assumed to be hostile, assumed to be against, and assumed to be in the way of people on the more traditional feminine track before I'm even done saying "Hi my name is..."

I think the mainstream feminist "do it all" paradigm really fucked us up. And I blame Capitalism for that, but that's another rant. The fact is - to me - career and child, self and child - these things ARE a choice. You CAN NOT have everything. When we started "you can have/do everything" then the Mommy wars began.

I think in some ways I'd be more comfortable as a weird mannish abnormality in a prefeminist world sometimes.