Gay men - I need you!

[Huckleman2000]

[...]A country that shows a portion of its citizens that it hates them enough to let them die pushes such people underground or into militancy. Gay men, forced into one or the other in order to survive, were pushed in directions by society, rather than deciding where they wanted to go.

Yes. Even today, with far more acceptance in the workplace, my gay friends tend to make an appearance at mixed gatherings, then make an early exit to places that are almost exclusively gay. My lesbian, bi, and queer friends aren't like that so much - their social lives aren't nearly so defined by their orientation.

 

[Nirvanadragones]

Sigh . . . I'd go gay for you, Mils (wait a minute . .. .) but I'm all woman.

Having said that, I'm close to quite a few gay men, so I have a bit of inside information, so to speak. For what it's worth.

 

[Huckleman2000]

It's always bothered me that there are almost no gay men in the AH. I miss their point of view.

I can't imagine what it's like for two men to be raising a child - talk about bravery against societal oppression! I'll never forget one time a friend and I took his young son out to a busy restaurant. At one point he just said, "You know, people are looking at us like we're a gay couple, and they're wondering if we're pedophiles." I was often the only Dad at my son's school functions who wasn't there with his wife, and I would get some weird stares. Men aren't supposed to be that involved with kids, at least not outside of very structured situations like coaching or something. Has it changed much in the last 10-15 years?

 

[sr71plt]

It's always bothered me that there are almost no gay men in the AH. I miss their point of view.

Could it be that when they start to respond to a thread like this, they are told that they have toilet paper on their shoes?

You can't listen if you're talking.

 

[3113]

Has it changed much in the last 10-15 years?

I think it has where I live. I've noticed a significant rise in the number of dads I see caring for kids. I mean, everywhere I look I see a man--no mom with him--with a baby strapped to his back or pushing a stroller, walking a young son or daughter to and from school and asking them about their day, playing with them along the way, hanging out in the coffeehouse with whatever male friend he's meeting, his kid nibbling on a cookie.

I taught a children's lit class recently and I told the mostly female students that, IMHO, while women as astronauts and politicians were a significant and important change in regards to equality in gender roles, it was equally if not more important that kids were beginning to think it normal to see dads caring for babies and toddlers. Tests in the past have shown that if a child is standing on the street crying, men will typically pass the child by, expecting a woman to ask the kid if anything is wrong--and women will typically ask the child what is wrong. I think what I'm seeing says that if this test was done again, the results might be different, and that would be, to me, an important difference. It's powerfully significant to me if little boys start to think that caring for children is part of being a man, not something left to women.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Could it be that when they start to respond to a thread like this, they are told that they have toilet paper on their shoes?

You can't listen if you're talking.

Yes, this thread reminds me of some of our recent threads about women's experiences.

Vermilion, you'll probably get better results-- unless you're getting PM's-- by posting in the GLBT forum... Our only completely gay member isn't around much.

Seems to me the only Bi guy who's shown up is SR71plt, to mention that there are some awfully loud non-gay-male voices in the room.

 

[sr71plt]

Yes, this thread reminds me of some of our recent threads about women's experiences.

Vermilion, you'll probably get better results-- unless you're getting PM's-- by posting in the GLBT forum... Our only completely gay member isn't around much.

Seems to me the only Bi guy who's shown up is SR71plt, to mention that there are some awfully loud non-gay-male voices in the room.

Yep, just like two other threads in the recent two weeks. Everyone (in this case, those who've read a book, have observed a gay friend, or assume that lesbian substitutes for gay male) wants to yammer except for the ones addressed in the thread.

In this one, though, I asked Vermillion for something more specific, and she provided that, and I responded within my knowledge base while there was still breathable air in the room. If she asks other specific questions, I think I might be able to shed light on, I'll probably do so despite the side flak and snarky lesbian.

 

[Liar]

Seems to me the only Bi guy who's shown up is SR71plt

Ahem?

 

[3113]

Yep, just like two other threads in the recent two weeks. Everyone (in this case, those who've read a book, have observed a gay friend, or assume that lesbian substitutes for gay male) wants to yammer except for the ones addressed in the thread.

So...even though there's only one regular gay male on the AH who regularly posts and he doesn't seem to be here...WE are to shoulder the blame for the fact that no gay men have responded AND we shouldn't have entered the thread or started a discussion on the subject? We are "Yammering" about it? Funny, I thought we were writers as well as human beings. How can any of us write about anything if we don't discuss it? Including things we may have only second-hand knowledge about?

I'm not a fireman. I know no firemen. If I ask about firemen, I may find that no one on this site is or has ever been a fireman. But I'll happily listen to someone who has a lot of fireman friends and knows what their lives are like--including their marriages, family and sex lives, including research they've read on fireman stress levels, psychological make up, etc. That's information even if it's second hand. It can, at the very least, get me started in a direction on whatever story I'm writing.

And, as a p.s., the website I directed V. to was one created by a gay man answering questions on gay sex and lifestyle from primarily women writers. It wasn't a real person answering questions real time, but it was valid research. Likewise, I've asked my own questions of gay men, because I've been in her shoes. I write gay male stories, and I like to get it right, and I've gotten such answers direct from the horse's mouth as it were. Why are the answers I got from them suddenly invalid? This isn't a witness stand where "hearsay" doesn't count.

As for the snarky lesbian, you snarkily questioned whether she could talk on the subject. Believe me, sr, if the AH had a lot of gay men, and they'd jumped right into this thread, I don't think we would have "presumed." But from the look of it, V. isn't getting many p.m.s and likely isn't going to get them. And I don't think it's because the AH is populated with snarky lesbians. We answered as fellow writers trying to help out a writer. Not as non-gay men presuming to speak for them. I think it's a little high-handed of you to say we "presumed" when there's no one else here to discuss the topic first hand, and that's no one on the AH, not no one willing to come out of hiding and enter the thread because we've offended them.

 

[sr71plt]

Safe-bet's "know everything" snarkiness doesn't start with this thread, 3113. You'll notice that she didn't bother to acknowledge the thread was addressed to "gay men" in both title and opening post. Male "Bi" is a whole lot closer to the issue than "lesbian." And, sorry, but there was no open snarkiness until the "go away, I'm talking" toilet tissue crack. My first post to her was shock that a lesbian would be audacious enough to claim to be able speak for a gay male on the "sex act" topic being posed. But then Safe-bet's audacity knows no limits.

Doesn't matter; the issue has been taken away from all of this "Oh, I know, I know--my barber's cousin is gay" background noise.

And, as Stella noted, this is the third time in two weeks that those not addressed have pounded the air with theoretical flak on a "what's reality" question to an entirely different set of people--and then denigrated anyone who posted who was actually being addressed in the question.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Safe-bet's "know everything" snarkiness doesn't start with this thread, 3113. You'll notice that she didn't bother to acknowledge the thread was addressed to "gay men" in both title and opening post. Male "Bi" is a whole lot closer to the issue than "lesbian." And, sorry, but there was no open snarkiness until the "go away, I'm talking" toilet tissue crack. My first post to her was shock that a lesbian would be audacious enough to claim to be able speak for a gay male on the "sex act" topic being posed. But then Safe-bet's audaciousness knows no limits.

Doesn't matter; the issue has been taken away from all of this "Oh, I know, I know--my barber's cousin is gay" background noise.

And, as Stella noted, this is the third time in two weeks that those not addressed have pounded the air with theoretical flak on a "what's reality" question to an entirely different set of people--and then denigrated anyone who posted who was actually being addressed in the question.

SR, you are cracking me up this morning. I know that you read my posts and that you KNOW that they were in response to a specific prior posting. You know that, but you just can't resist taking a shot at me, as usual, can you?

I wonder how much of that comes from me being openly queer and you feeling the need to live a double life cuz you are publicly still in the closet. Jealous, much? You also seem to have a particular dislike for women that don't kiss your ass. What's with that?

I am well aware that you feel that you are the only voice that should be heeded (your ego / insecurities require that), but some of us CAN talk on the subject of "gay lifestyle" based upon actual experience.

BTW, SR this morning I had coffee with a gay male friend of ours (he does hair, but don't call him a barber) and he wanted me to tell you "Hey, Abigail, come on out and play...." he said that you prolly wouldn't get the reference but that's okay, dude, cuz you are the only one who can speak for gay men.

P.S. SR: Nice try on trying to switch it on to me. Not gonna fly for anybody that can read, but nice try anyways...

P.P.S. Liar, I'm not trying to say that you don't know or can't speak. I just figured you want to keep out of this one.

 

[sr71plt]

As I was saying.

 

[3113]

Yes, this thread reminds me of some of our recent threads about women's experiences.

I haven't been reading those threads, but it's apples and oranges. There *are* women who can respond to such threads here on the AH. A lot of them. We seem to be sorely lacking gay men on the other hand. As you, yourself, pointed out.

It's one thing to presume to speak for others when they're standing right there beside you. It's quite another to speak for them when there are none to be found.

And, as Stella noted, this is the third time in two weeks that those not addressed have pounded the air with theoretical flak on a "what's reality" question to an entirely different set of people

And it's not going to ever stop, especially among writers, so get used to it. This is what writers do. We are people watchers, investigators, the greatest fans of humanity out there. All we do in our stories is present theoretical flak on the "reality" of people--all kinds of people. This is what we do. Is it right? Is it wrong? Depends. If I ask men to tell me what it feels like to get kicked in the balls, and Safe_Bet jumps in saying, "It feels like being pinched!" Then I've every right to get snarkly and say, "And you should know?" BUT if she says, "I once asked a male friend that question and he said...." Then I think I can take her answer as valid, even if I may want confirmation from other men on it.

We don't have to get the research right from the horse's mouth each and every time. Someone who already talked to the horse can tell us what we need to know.

I'd like to also point out that sometimes, the outsider sees things that the insider may not. If you're living in a fish bowl, you may not know you're living in a fish bowl. But the person on the outside may say, "You're living in a fish bowl," and you say, "Oh, wow, that's what those glass walls are all about." We rarely objectively and analytically examine those lifestyles we share with others and take for granted, especially if we live in a neighborhood where everyone else shares the same lifestyle.

As a theoretical example, if you were to tell me that you'd observed women in a bar flirting all in the same way, I wouldn't say, "You're not a girl from that bar, how dare you presume to know that!" Likewise, if I were to visit an all gay male neighborhood, I might notice something that the residents take for granted.

Writers should, indeed, write what they know. But if we write only what we know, which is, at the extreme, just ourselves, then we make our writing very narrow. We have to assume that we can learn what it is like to walk in another's shoes--to a limited extent, granted. But if we don't assume that, all white male writers will write stories only of white males, and then be stuck between a rock and hard place when asked, "Why aren't there any women or minorities in your stories?" I don't know what it feels like to be kicked in the balls. I will never know what it feels like. But I hope I can write a story with a male point of view that has men saying, "Yeah, sometimes it's that way for me." I'd be very sorry if I couldn't write up stories about men, gay men, black men, or any other kind of men because I'm a woman and I shouldn't be allowed to address men's reality.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, I'll agree with you that it's going keep going on.

 

[Liar]

P.P.S. Liar, I'm not trying to say that you don't know or can't speak. I just figured you want to keep out of this one.

Why? I've been in gay male relationships. Have you? I 'd say that puts me right in the middle of the actual question posed here.

I'd even say that the fact that I, and many, many gays, lesbians and bisexuals with me, don't partake in that culture, don't hang in "gay only" circles, thinks a lot of publically precieved "gay" activities are effin weird, and feel excluded from the whole pride thing, means that there's a whole lot of "gay lifestyle" that is waaaaaay different from your lifestyle, as you've described it here.

Which is why I mean your lifestyle is not gay per se. What defines it is not the sexual orientation. It's queer. It's consciously, stereotypically queer. Which is fine. But niether you nor I should pretend to speak for the entireless of "gay lifestyle", just because we're a letter in the LGBT.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Why? I've been in gay male relationships. Have you? I 'd say that puts me right in the middle of the actual question posed here.

I'd even say that the fact that I, and many, many gays, lesbians and bisexuals with me, don't partake in that culture, don't hang in "gay only" circles, thinks a lot of publically precieved "gay" activities are effin weird, and feel excluded from the whole pride thing, means that there's a whole lot of "gay lifestyle" that is waaaaaay different from your lifestyle, as you've described it here.

Which is why I mean your lifestyle is not gay per se. What defines it is not the sexual orientation. It's queer. It's consciously, stereotypically queer. Which is fine. But niether you nor I should pretend to speak for the entireless of "gay lifestyle", just because we're a letter in the LGBT.

Hold it a second, dude. That was two different subjects. 1.) I was trying to say was that you prolly wanted to stay out of the shit 'tween SR and me and 2.) that your comments WERE valid.

Actually, I think you make a good point. I don't necessarily agree that the "queer community" isn't defined by their sexual orientation however. That has been forced on them. Just so we are clear, I use "gay" and "queer" interchanageably. Regardly of whether you are an open member of the "gay lifestyle" (to refer back to V's initial question) or not, if laws like Prop 8 could ever possibly impact you then you are part of the "queer community."

 

[sr71plt]

1.) I was trying to say was that you prolly wanted to stay out of the shit 'tween SR and me

Naw, you were using one of your techniques to try to cut someone actually addressed by the thread out of the conversation.

The question was on gay males and the actual sex act--something that you have absolutely nothing valid to say about (but that, of course, won't stop you talking).

 

[Liar]

Hold it a second, dude. That was two different subjects. 1.) I was trying to say was that you prolly wanted to stay out of the shit 'tween SR and me and 2.) that your comments WERE valid.

Oh. Ah. Alrighty den.

Actually, I think you make a good point. I don't necessarily agree that the "queer community" isn't defined by their sexual orientation however. That has been forced on them. Just so we are clear, I use "gay" and "queer" interchanageably. Regardly of whether you are an open member of the "gay lifestyle" (to refer back to V's initial question) or not, if laws like Prop 8 could ever possibly impact you then you are part of the "queer community."

K then, so you'd agree that the "queer community", according to your way of using the word, also includes people who live totally stereotypically "straight" lives (except that the sex they have, happens to be gay sex and the peple they fall for, happens to be of the same sex as them), and have no contact whatsoever with the gay "scene"?

I am, was and always will be honest with my sexual orientation. First openly gay, and then openly bi once I realized I also fancies the ladies. It just never defined me or dictated my choice of lifestyle and culture. And I don't shout it from the rooftops. Not because I try to hide I like men. No, for the same reason that I don't have the size of my penis printed on a t-shirt. Because unless you're part of my sex life, it's none of your business.

 

[sr71plt]

This umbilical connection between being gay and California's Prop 8 escapes me--beyond being a very provincial viewpoint anyway. Being gay is a sex act preference--it doesn't have to be part of any distinctive "lifestyle" or any legal circumstance whatsoever.

The question here, when it attained some specificity, was a male-male slot A/tab B issue.

 

[Vermilion]

This umbilical connection between being gay and California's Prop 8 escapes me--beyond being a very provincial viewpoint anyway. Being gay is a sex act preference--it doesn't have to be part of any distinctive "lifestyle" or any legal circumstance whatsoever.

The question here, when it attained some specificity, was a male-male slot A/tab B issue.

I didn't realise that the phrase 'gay lifestyle' had attained such a specific meaning. I simply meant gay experienced and perhaps I should have said so - and would have had I realised my meaning would be misunderstood. My bad.
x
V

 

[bb_peaks]

Liar. Mind if I ask you a question or two? And I don't remember your relationship status so forgive me if I'm being too forward.

I am, was and always will be honest with my sexual orientation. First openly gay, and then openly bi once I realized I also fancies the ladies. It just never defined me or dictated my choice of lifestyle and culture. And I don't shout it from the rooftops. Not because I try to hide I like men. No, for the same reason that I don't have the size of my penis printed on a t-shirt. Because unless you're part of my sex life, it's none of your business.

Do you have a preference of being attracted to more men or women or not notice a difference? Do the same traits that attract you to a man also appeal to you in a woman?

Oh and if you ever do decide to make that penis shirt I'd love to see a pic

 

[sr71plt]

I didn't realise that the phrase 'gay lifestyle' had attained such a specific meaning. I simply meant gay experienced and perhaps I should have said so - and would have had I realised my meaning would be misunderstood. My bad.
x
V

I did find the original posting hazy--and asked if you could be more specific (which you were--making clear at that point that you were interested in specific male-male sex experience). No problem in that, though. If you were clear on what you were asking, you probably wouldn't have had to ask.

Just sorry that clarification wasn't queried and arrived at before the discussion rushed off the stratosphere without relevance to what you were seeking.

 

[Vermilion]

Do you have a preference of being attracted to more men or women or not notice a difference? Do the same traits that attract you to a man also appeal to you in a woman?

Oh and if you ever do decide to make that penis shirt I'd love to see a pic

I can answer as a bi female if you wish. Just ask.

 

[sr71plt]

I can answer as a bi female if you wish. Just ask.

As a bi male, I can answer that too. At my stage of life, I'm mostly attracted to potato chips.

 

[bb_peaks]

I can answer as a bi female if you wish. Just ask.

Sure. I know that I have bi tendencies but have yet to act on them.