[poll] what is virginity?

[silverwhisper]

what, for you, constitutes a state of virginity? does losing virginity require penetration uniting male & female genitalia, does it mean any kind of sexual contact/activity, sexual thoughts, something else?

ed

p.s.: as always, my answers later, yadda yadda yadda...

 

[satindesire]

what, for you, constitutes a state of virginity? does losing virginity require penetration uniting male & female genitalia, does it mean any kind of sexual contact/activity, sexual thoughts, something else?

ed

p.s.: as always, my answers later, yadda yadda yadda...

I believe it's a completely relative term that no one answer will be alike to.

However, I believe that there is different types of virginities, namely oral, anal and (for women) vaginal.

Once sexual activity has taken place in that context, that person is no longer a virgin in that specific way.

 

[mylaceratedheart]

Personally, I also have the caveat that virginity is only really lost when a sexual experience is consensual and mutually enjoyed. A hymen is a hymen and it can be broken in any number of non-sexual ways but if someone's first sexual experiences are not consensual and take place before an awareness and deeper comprehension of sex is possible for the victim, something in the spirit remains untouched and unawakened.

As a side note, I find religious posters here who consider that performing every sexual act known to man except penetrative sex to be deluded and hypocritical. If they ever get their judgement day, I'd like to see them explain that one with a straight face and heartfelt repentance.

 

[unregistered]

 

[silverwhisper]

good points re: consensual contact, a point my wife brought up when we discussed this last night that i hadn't considered.

me personally, i otherwise go with the most literal definition re: penis + vagina, with the added caveat that i don't think virginity is a useful or meaningful word.

ed

 

[Eilan]

me personally, i otherwise go with the most literal definition re: penis + vagina, with the added caveat that i don't think virginity is a useful or meaningful word.

I tend to agree, on both counts.

I've known several people, both online and IRL, who were self-righteous about being "virgins," even though they'd done pretty much everything but PIV sex. I've also read posts from people on Lit who think that any time a woman's hymen is broken, she's lost her virginity, even if it happened during a completely nonsexual activity.

BTW, Dan Savage and his faithful readers, in response to Rick Warren being chosen to do the inaugural invocation, have coined a new term, saddlebacking.

 

[The Gimp]

I say that you are no longer a virgin once you have had skin to skin intimate contact with the genitals of someone else. The previously made comments about consent apply to this definition as well. If the contact is not consensual then it is not intimate, so it doesn't count.

Eliminating specific sex acts from the definition of virginity is no different than saying what is considered sex based on what ones definition of the word 'is' is. I've actually heard someone make the argument that they are still a virgin because the only kinds of sex that they will have are oral or anal, but they are saving their pussy for marriage. That is ridiculous.

When I was in high school my girlfriend rubbed the crotch of my pants while we were sitting in a movie theater. That doesn't count as a loss. On the other hand if she would have unzipped the pants and started jerking me off then that would have counted as a loss

 

[KarennaC]

good points re: consensual contact, a point my wife brought up when we discussed this last night that i hadn't considered.

me personally, i otherwise go with the most literal definition re: penis + vagina, with the added caveat that i don't think virginity is a useful or meaningful word.

ed

My only question about this is, if the literal definition of losing virginity is penis + vagina, does that mean gay men and lesbian women who have only same-sex experiences are virgins for their entire lives?

 

[silverwhisper]

karenna: that's correct, and is in part why i don't consider it a useful word, in addition to eilan's point that there are some straight couples who engage in anal sex for the express purpose of having their cake and eating it, too.

ed

 

[KarennaC]

Okay, talk about warped thinking. Guess that would be from the fundamentalist "one man, one woman" school of thought?

I guess I kind of think-- thinking as I type-- of loss of virginity for men as either inserting their penis into a vagina or ass, or having a penis or strap-on inserted into their ass. For women, I still get stuck on the traditional, a penis breaks your hymen (or penetrates your vagina for the first time, if your hymen was broken in another way), but then anal virginity exists too, so hmm, redefining here...

Okay. I lost my virginity just before I turned 20, but my anal virginity when I was 37. I guess I think once a woman has had *either* her anus or vagina penetrated by a penis or strap-on, she's no longer a virgin. Self-inflicted penetration doesn't count, in my mind; the key point of losing one's virginity to me is the involvement of someone else.

I emphatically agree, however, with the posters above who have said that it must be CONSENTUAL. In The Color Purple, Celie tells Shug about all the abuse and rape she's suffered, and that she's never felt anything good when she's had sex because it's always been forced. Shug's reply is (paraphrased because I can't find my copy of the book), "Well, honey, that means you're still a virgin". I agree with that.

 

[romantic_always]

I really feel wonderful that people agree that virginity is an act of consent, not rape or sexual abuse. That makes me feel good about myself, and I can say I lost my virginity at 19, not at the age in which I was abused.

 

[subwannabe]

Dictionary -

Virgin - A person who has never had sexual intercourse.

Intercourse - sexual connection (coitus)

Coitus - sexual intercourse

Oh, I give up!

I do agree with the others who are appalled at the hypocracy that someone is still a virgin even after they have played around considerably via several different methods.

 

[eudaemonia]

In a local newspaper feature the other week on the phenomenon of teen saddlebacking, one girl was quoted (paraphrasing), "Saddlebacking isn't really sex."

Contemporaneously, defenders of Portland Mayor Sam Adams have argued that his one-minute kiss with a 17-year-old in the 2nd floor men's restroom of City Hall "isn't really sex" (again, paraphrasing).**

For the trifecta, President Clinton famously maintained that blow jobs aren't really sex either.

What I want to know is, if kissing isn't sex and blow jobs aren't sex and saddlebacking isn't sex, then what the hell *is* the definition and scope of sex?

IMO, "intent to erotically arouse" is a more useful starting point for inquiry about what constitutes sex -- and perhaps by extension, 'virginity' -- than classifications of reproductive purpose, age, gender, marriage. If any body part is potentially eroticizable, which some Litizens know to be the case, then intent and consent (at a minimum) must be integral to the meaning of sex.

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**-- Unfortunately for Mayor Adams, Oregon case law is explicitly clear on intent to erotically arouse non-genital body parts the lips, neck, etc.

 

[Jack_Samuel]

I understand where everyone else is coming from and also agree that rape is a terrible thing but i believe your a virgin until the act of intercourse.

Its a spiritual, mental as much as physical experience.

P.s. intercourse can be done with a strapon, dildo ... and is not limited to straight couples

 

[KarennaC]

Confessing my ignorance here, what is saddlebacking?

 

[Eilan]

Confessing my ignorance here, what is saddlebacking?

Click on the link in my other post.

 

[eudaemonia]

I understand where everyone else is coming from and also agree that rape is a terrible thing but i believe your a virgin until the act of intercourse.

So, penetration is the tipping point for virginity? Which orafices 'count' - vaginal and anal but not oral or .... ?

 

[SweetErika]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say:

I considered myself a virgin after I had oral sex, but before I had vaginal or anal sex.

I considered the first time I had vaginal sex to be the loss of my virginity.

I considered the first time I had anal sex to be the loss of my anal virginity.

However, if I had my first major sexual experience with another woman, and was more/firmly on the lesbian side of the spectrum, I would have considered that to be losing my virginity, even if there was no (or very little) penetration involved. (As it so happened, when I finally did do more than make out with another woman, I considered that 'losing my F/F virginity,' and it carries about the same weight as my first vaginal sex experience.)

The Gimp's definition definitely resonates with me; I don't consider women who have been in sexual relationships with other women for decades to be virgins, or people who have only been sexually assaulted to be non-virgins.

Anyway, like Ed, I think the whole concept of virginity is kind of silly and overrated, and am shocked at how many young people especially think they're saving their virginity while they're having a bunch of oral and anal sex and doing everything else in the book. P-i-V sex is in its own category in my mind due to the whole relative-ease-of-getting-pregnant thing, but other types of sex can certainly make babies, give STIs, be just as intimate and necessitate the same level of maturity.

 

[Cathleen]

It's gone! That's what it is.;p


I wouldn't have had such an indepth response as I've read here. You all have expanded my mind...thank you.

 

[romantic_always]

SweetErika said it well. I also felt a virgin until vaginally penetrated, but that was just me, and this was because the amount of emotion and preparation my mind and body had to go through beforehand.

I believe that people lose their virginity when they are fully invested in the situation, that's how I felt at least. For women being with women, this could be the first time they have their version of sex, or it could be the first time they simply "fool around", so to speak. It is all a matter of interpretation.

 

[pinkflames]

If anal sex doesn't count then my gay, sexually liberal best friend is still a virgin!!!?

 

[Windflower]

Answer: over rated

 

[SlickTony]

Answer: over rated

That sez it all.

 

[FriendlyDude]

To me it's actual intercourse.

 

[pinkflames]

Actual anal intercourse? Actual oral intercourse? or Actual vaginal intercourse?