Stimulus Package - Debate & Discussion

[Sharon_]

"On page 151 of this legislative pork-fest [the 'stimulus' bill] is one of the clandestine nuggets of social policy manipulation that are peppered throughout the bill. Section 9201 of the stimulus package establishes the 'Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research.' This body, which would be made up of federal bureaucrats will 'coordinate the conduct or support of comparative effectiveness and related health services research.' Sounds benign enough, but the man behind the Coordinating Council, Health and Human Services Secretary-designate [since withdrawn] (and tax cheat) Tom Daschle, was kind enough to explain the goal of this organization. It is to cut health care costs by preventing Americans from getting treatments that the government decides don't meet their standards for cost effectiveness. In his 2008 book on health care, he explained that such a council would, 'lower overall spending by determining which medicines, treatments and procedures are most effective-and identifying those that do not justify their high price tags.' Once a panel of government experts decides what is and what is not cost-effective by their definition, the government will stop paying for treatments, medicines, therapies or devices that fall into the latter category. ... Mind you, they are not simply looking to exclude treatments that don't work, but to exclude treatments that are effective, but whose cost, in their opinion, does not justify their use. You, the patient, and your physician don't get a vote. This would make the federal government the single most important decision-maker regarding health care for every patient in America." --public affairs consultant Douglas O'Brien

Yes, I heard that and apparently Arlen Specter is all over it and wants it out during conference.

Another one not getting play is the little two liner they slipped into the portion dealing with remodelling/building schools...that any school who uses that money can no longer have any kind of religious gathering of any denomination. Use money to refurbish/build dorms? The students can't meet in their dorm for prayer or Bible study (and whatever the applicable Jewish/Islam/insert faith here would be).

Can't let interfaith basketball leagues use your gym, not even for pay.

No chaplain.

No National Prayer Breakfast.

Nothint at all to do with any religion ever again allowed.

I think the Senator who wrote the amendment to strip those two lines out of the bill was not allowed to bring his amendment to the floor.

 

[Slowlane]

Ha! See there? Even you can crack laughing-on-the-outside-but-crying-on-the-inside jokes about your party and its failed leader of eight years at your expense!

It's far too close to the reality of thinking on the left to be a joke.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Yes, I heard that and apparently Arlen Specter is all over it and wants it out during conference.

Another one not getting play is the little two liner they slipped into the portion dealing with remodelling/building schools...that any school who uses that money can no longer have any kind of religious gathering of any denomination. Use money to refurbish/build dorms? The students can't meet in their dorm for prayer or Bible study (and whatever the applicable Jewish/Islam/insert faith here would be).

Can't let interfaith basketball leagues use your gym, not even for pay.

No chaplain.

No National Prayer Breakfast.

Nothint at all to do with any religion ever again allowed.

I think the Senator who wrote the amendment to strip those two lines out of the bill was not allowed to bring his amendment to the floor.

What an utter load of bullshit..

You heard all of this? I can only imagine from where..

 

[KingOrfeo]

It's far too close to the reality of thinking on the left to be a joke.

This is a whoosh, right? No, "If we can shout "I HATE BUSH" long enough and loud enough all the ills of the world will fade away" is not very close to the reality of thinking on the left at all, at all.

 

[Sharon_]

What an utter load of bullshit..

You heard all of this? I can only imagine from where..

No need to imagine! Wouldn't want you to break your Fantasy Bone that is being overworked as is.

C-Span II, last week during the debate and from the Senator trying to offer the amendment to strip those two lines from it. Young guy, Republican...don't recall what state, but west of me.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

No need to imagine! Wouldn't want you to break your Fantasy Bone that is being overworked as is.

C-Span II, last week during the debate and from the Senator trying to offer the amendment to strip those two lines from it. Young guy, Republican...don't recall what state, but west of me.

The actual portion of the bill that's being referred to:

No funds awarded under this section may be used for - (C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities - (i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission.


Doesn't quite say what you or the good Senator you're referring to says it does huh?

Federal money is not to be used to rebuild, modernize, renovate or repair structures whose major function is religious instruction or meeting.

Not dorms, not gymnasiums, not classrooms..mostly just chapels and areas set aside for religious gatherings as a substantial portion of it's function. Dorms are primarily housing, unaffected. Gymnasiums are primarily sports related, unaffected. Classrooms, other than those used primarily for sectarian instruction, religious worship.. unaffected..

it would seem. Simply put, the federal funds will not be used to refurbish, build, or repair a building meant for primarily religious activities.. ANY religion.

 

[Sharon_]

The actual portion of the bill that's being referred to:

No funds awarded under this section may be used for - (C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities - (i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or (ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission.


Doesn't quite say what you or the good Senator you're referring to says it does huh?

Nope, but then I have no idea where you got that from. The Senator was taking it from the original House bill.

He never got to proffer his amendment so there was no debate on his claims. I dunno if he was erroneous or you are or the wording was changed in the compromise.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Nope, but then I have no idea where you got that from. The Senator was taking it from the original House bill.

He never got to proffer his amendment so there was no debate on his claims. I dunno if he was erroneous or you are or the wording was changed in the compromise.

I got the quote from the stimulus bill from a partisan site.
http://www*****sitenews.com/ldn/2009/feb/09020611.html
A Christian partisan site claiming that this provision is discriminatory.
You can also try this partisan site where the section of the bill is quoted:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/lynnvsekulow/2009/02/religious-discrimination---not.html
Well of course it's discriminatory, it expressly forbids the use of federal funds to be used to build, repair, or renovate an area whose primary function is religious worship. it doesn't say that facilities cannot be used for religious functions at all.. THAT I could understand the uproar over.

Section 803, the portion that the right is making hay over:
HIGHER EDUCATION MODERNIZATION, RENOVATION, AND REPAIR.

(d) USE OF SUBGRANTS BY INSTITUTIONS OF HIGHER EDUCATION.—

(1) PERMISSIBLE USES OF FUNDS.—An institution of higher education receiving a subgrant under this section shall use such subgrant to modernize, renovate, or repair facilities of the institution that are primarily used for instruction, research, or student housing, which may include any of the following:

[reparing roofs, wiring, AC, fire saftey systems etc...]

PROHIBITED USES OF FUNDS.—No funds awarded under this section may be used for—

(A) the maintenance of systems, equipment, or facilities, including maintenance associated with any permissible uses of funds described in paragraph (1);

(B) modernization, renovation, or repair of stadiums or other facilities primarily used for athletic contests or exhibitions or other events for which admission is charged to the general public;

(C) modernization, renovation, or repair of facilities—

(i) used for sectarian instruction, religious worship, or a school or department of divinity; or

(ii) in which a substantial portion of the functions of the facilities are subsumed in a religious mission; or

(D) construction of new facilities.


Senator Jim DeMint's (R-SC) argument, and that of the religious right, is based on misinformation about the provision. His amendment was struck down for good reason, the argument was fallacious.

I have no idea where they got the idea that students would be barred from using university facilities for Bible study or Prayer meetings, or even religious groups meeting in classrooms or dorms. Nowhere does the legislation say anything like that. By their logic, since the legislation also prohibits universities from using the money to repair their athletic stadiums, student athletes would likewise be barred from using any university sports facilities if the school accepts stimulus funds.

edit:

What the bill says is that if a facility's use is primarily religious, stimulus funds can't be used modernize, renovate, or repair it - not that groups will be barred from hosting a Bible study in the student union if the university receives said funding.

As far as federal legislation goes, this seems pretty clear ... and I can understand why a Religious Right group such as the ACLJ might oppose it, but the least the can do is oppose it for what it actually says instead of concocting some nonsensical myth in order to get it stripped from the bill.

 

[Wok]

Oh and Ulaven, I think I heard the $200k per job from Glenn Beck.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Oh and Ulaven, I think I heard the $200k per job from Glenn Beck.

Well with his record of factual reporting its a pretty sure bet he was doing exactly as I suspected..

Amount of stimulus \ estimated number of jobs created= cost per job

Yeah, that makes sense to my 11 year old. But there are a few more variables in that particular equation than just jobs created. It's a simplistic view, I'm not surprised that Beck and Cap'n Oblivious have adopted it. I saw him trying to push the same numbers earlier in the thread.

It's a huge amount of money to be sure, but it only looks so big because it's being requested as a lump sum, some of which (about 10-15%) will be spent over up to 10 years.. There was over $500 billion in new deficit spending every single year from 2003 to 2006, they almost made it in 2002. That's more than double the amount of this stimulus package in 4 years and what do we have to show for it?

As far as I'm concerned the "conservatives" have zero credibility with regards to the economy. Zilch, nada, zero.

 

[pellso27]

I don't want or need anything that nigger is putting out!

 

[KingOrfeo]

Gallup poll: Stimulus Support Edges Higher, Now 59%.

 

[Ulaven_Demorte]

Gallup poll: Stimulus Support Edges Higher, Now 59%.

Reality has a known liberal bias, as does truth.