60% of women say it's acceptable for wives to hit their husbands

[Le Jacquelope]

Now you know why women think it's funny to see a woman hitting a guy: more than half believe it's acceptable.

More than half.

How many women think it is misogyny to speak of this?

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=15&art_id=vn20081125064002133C731559

November 25 2008 at 09:45AM

By Zama Mvulane

"I was getting struck by this woman while I was holding my daughter. The funny thing is that I could not even call the police.

I could not even speak to any of my friends about it," writes a domestic violence victim on one of the growing numbers of websites that seem to be the only effective support for men suffering abuse at the hands of their partners.

The day marks the start of the 16 Days of Activism against gender violence.

Since the launch of this campaign, there is no doubt that great strides have been made in highlighting the plight of women and children who fall victim to gender based violence.

However, there is a lack of acceptance that men, too, are increasingly becoming silent victims of domestic abuse and violence at the hands of their partners, and that there is a growing number of same-sex couples experiencing domestic violence from their partners.

In fact, there seem to be similarities between men and same-sex couples when it comes to dealing with domestic violence.

Both groups have more difficulty finding appropriate support and victims seeking support have to con-front a number of negative perceptions and stereotypes before accessing assistance.

Although figures on the extent of male victims vary considerably, there is growing agreement among researchers that men also suffer domestic physical and emotional abuse at the hands of their partners or spouses.

In a recent study on emerging attitudes and patterns of domestic violence, Glasgow University found that of the 200 women surveyed, 60 percent said "it was acceptable for women to hit their husbands" while 35 percent admitted assaulting their partners and a total of 8 percent admitted to physically injuring them.

Although physical abuse is considered the most obvious form of domestic abuse, emotional abuse by way of insults, intimidation, and other methods can be more devastating than physical abuse, because it is difficult to prove and therefore hard to stop.

Owing to societal pressures and socialisation, men are less likely to talk about the abuse they suffer behind closed doors.

And not much is done to encourage men to report cases of domestic abuse, although many civil society organisations fighting domestic abuse and violence claim to represent men as well.

Although there are a handful of organisations that directly engage men on issues of domestic violence in South Africa, the most commonly known ones - Agisanang Domestic Abuse Prevention and Training (Adapt) men's programme, One Man Can and South African Men as Partners Network - seem to have chosen to ignore the abuse of men.

Many of these organisations use outdated approaches that assume men are the main perpetrators and thus miss out on the growing number of male victims.

For example, on its website, One Man Can boldly proclaims "undeniably, it is men who commit the majority of all acts of domestic and sexual violence".

Recently the new minister of safety and security, Nkosinathi Mthethwa, highlighted the need to deal with attitudes in the police service as a key priority in dealing with domestic violence.

Central to this is the need to educate the police to take cases of abuse against men just as seriously.

The dynamic of domestic abuse and violence is different between men and women. The reasons, purposes and motivations are often very different.

There are many reasons why people assume men are not victims and why women often ignore the possibility.

In most cases, the actual physical damage inflicted by men is much greater than the actual physical harm inflected by women, so the impact of domestic violence is less apparent and the violence less likely to come to the attention of others when men are abused.

Even when men do report domestic abuse and violence, people may be so astonished that the men end up feeling as though nobody believes them.

What hurts a man mentally and emotionally can be very different from what hurts a woman. For some men, being called a coward, impotent or a failure can have a very different psychological impact from the one it would have on a woman.

Cruel words hurt, but they hurt in different ways and linger in different ways. In most cases, men are more deeply affected by emotional abuse than physical abuse.

# Mvulane is a political adviser to the chief whip of the National Council of Provinces. He writes in his personal capacity.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Two studies (both done by female researchers) conclude that women prevail in every aspect of domestic violence but one, when push comes to shove, women hit like girls.

I dont agree. When I worked at the hospital I was involved in take-downs almost every day. The peeps who caused the most injuries to staff were 1. small women and 2. small adolescent males. Theyre more elastic and can apply more force across a smaller area of contact. A man wont usually hurt you unless he falls on top of you or can apply his greater mass thru his fist.

But I do agree that women like to start shit, then escalate until the pushing and shoving begins.

 

[3113]

Come on Jaq, I know this is your all time favorite hobby-horse and you can't resist climbing aboard and rocking away on it--and preaching to the choir as if we're all sinners while you're at it. But if you want us to weep in outrage about 60% of women thinking it's okay to hit their husbands, you're going to have to do better than this:

In a recent study on emerging attitudes and patterns of domestic violence, Glasgow University found that of the 200 women surveyed, 60 percent said "it was acceptable for women to hit their husbands" while 35 percent admitted assaulting their partners and a total of 8 percent admitted to physically injuring them.

So. 60% of 200 GLASGLOW women think it's okay to hit their husband. And this is a representative sample of...all women? In every country on Earth? Have you been to Glasglow? I haven't myself, but I remember my husband telling me about a visit to one small town in the UK where it was not uncommon to see a lot of fights each and every night. I mean knock-down-drag-out fights. Just about everyone in the place had been raised to put up their fists and fight, especially after a few pints. Men with men, women with women, men with women. I can certainly see at least 35% of women in *that* town hitting their husbands during a screaming argument.

Now, as I said, we're the choir here and we're well aware that domestic abuse where the victim is male doesn't get reported near so much as if it's a woman, and we know that there is an ongoing assumption that domestic abuse is viewed only as a man hitting a woman and that, yes, no one of either gender should be abused period. But 200 women in Galasglow and you come here raging about "emerging attitudes and patterns of sexual abuse" (really? how many studies have been done by this University so that we can compare if this pattern is emerging?). You use this pathetic research to imply that 60% of all women on earth think it acceptable to hit their husbands? Please. Research wise this is both a small sample and an unrepresentative sample. I'd also like to know what those 60% define as "hit." What, exactly, were the questions asked. Because as you can see, only 8% admit to physically injuring their husbands.

So when we're taking about "hit" does that even mean "hitting to do physical injury"? When they asked women if it was acceptable for wives to hit their husbands...how did they define a "hit." Did they mean cracking him on the head with a frying pan and sending him to the hospital? In which case, that 60% is, indeed, alarming. Hitting him hard enough to leave a bruise? Still alarming, but less so than the frying pan. Or one of those "you did what?" smacks on the shoulder that leave men grinning down at the little woman for being so darn cute? Hardly alarming. I want to be clear about what these 120 women out of about 600,000 in the whole city defined as "hitting" before I go screaming down the street in horror over how abusive Glasgow women are to their men.

 

[togitc]

As a man who was abused I can say that finding help is really hard. Me telling someone would usually result in them ignoring what I had to say. Men or women, police or hospital staff, all just assumed I had done something worthy of it.

Example, she tried to punch me in the face while I was driving because she didn't like something I said. Obviously telling her she argues with me just to argue warrants a punch to the face while driving with the kids in the back.

I do not hit women but I do defend myself now.

 

[xssve]

My ex did the same thing togitc, with the kids in the back - knocked my glasses off. Luckily there was a clearing left by the road crew, and I managed to exit - at 60 MPH, and spin out on the gravel.

And I can do you one better - she would attack me and I would defend myself by grabbing her wrists to protect my eyes (she went for the eyes) - stupidly, when the police would arrive I would tell them this: " I grabbed her wrists to protect my eyes" - guess what? This is domestic abuse, and since she was less talkative, guess who ended up in jail?

She smashed a glass ashtray over my head while I was asleep, with my one year old next to me, shattered glass all over the bed. When I inquired as to just what the fuck she thought she was doing, she pulled a butcher knife on me, so I grabbed her wrists, and she bit on the chest (still have the scar). I pushed her off and she fell.

Guess who went to jail that time too, in fact I spent two weeks in county for it. The police told me I should have left my child in the bed covered with broken glass and run to the neighbors house in my underwear, the judge refused to even allow me to make a statement. Apparently, it's it's illegal to even defend yourself.

I sleep basically fully clothed to this day, including slippers, so fuck your "hardly alarming" 3113. You should be aware that I have a bit of bad moment even being touched by another person at times, and might react compulsively if you make an aggressive move.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

My ex did the same thing togitc, with the kids in the back - knocked my glasses off. Luckily there was a clearing left by the road crew, and I managed to exit - at 60 MPH, and spin out on the gravel.

And I can do you one better - she would attack me and I would defend myself by grabbing her wrists to protect my eyes (she went for the eyes) - stupidly, when the police would arrive I would tell them this: " I grabbed her wrists to protect my eyes" - guess what? This is domestic abuse, and since she was less talkative, guess who ended up in jail?

She smashed a glass ashtray over my head while I was asleep, with my one year old next to me, shattered glass all over the bed. When I inquired as to just what the fuck she thought she was doing, she pulled a butcher knife on me, so I grabbed her wrists, and she bit on the chest (still have the scar). I pushed her off and she fell.

Guess who went to jail that time too, in fact I spent two weeks in county for it. The police told me I should have left my child in the bed covered with broken glass and run to the neighbors house in my underwear, the judge refused to even allow me to make a statement. Apparently, it's it's illegal to even defend yourself.

I sleep basically fully clothed to this day, including slippers, so fuck your "hardly alarming" 3113. You should be aware that I have a bit of bad moment even being touched by another person at times, and might react compulsively if you make an aggressive move.

Bah, I wouldn't pay much attention to 3113. She's predictable like that.

That judge that wouldn't allow you to make a statement? If I'd been a neighbor, I would have suggested you hire a men's rights attorney and pursue having him taken off the bench. Behavior like that is flatly unethical and I'd bet a pile of green on it.

 

[Vermilion]

I sleep basically fully clothed to this day, including slippers, so fuck your "hardly alarming" 3113. You should be aware that I have a bit of bad moment even being touched by another person at times, and might react compulsively if you make an aggressive move.

Your experience is horrifying and I think it's obscene that none of the officials examined the situation more closely *at the very least*. However I do not think 3113 was denigrating your experience. She was merely attempting to point out how vague a definition 'hit' was. In many relationships, including mine, it is not uncommon for partners to playfully swipe at each other and I think a study that didn;t specifically define their terms to exclude such interpretations as this is going to do no good at redefining peoples' assumptions of domestic abuse.

Did you ever get any belief or help from anyone?

x
V

 

[xssve]

Quite the opposite - how do you feel knowing I've been jailed for domestic abuse? I'd rather not talk about it anymore.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Abuse of their husbands by women is widely accepted, even considered a laughing matter in the USA. It's very common on TV, for instance for a woman to slap her husband or SO or even to punch or kick him. I remember seeing in the comics, Maggie beating up on Jiggs and Mrs. Dithers beating up on her hapless husband.

Maybe it's because, in actual fact, women are not as capable of injuring their husbands as vice-versa. I am gentle as a butterfly and would never harm somebody I love but, physically, I could probably beat my wife to death with my feet and fists or, at least, put her in the hospital. Conversely, she wouldn't be able to hurt me, without a knife or a frying pan or boiling water or other weapon. Of course, that would be ADW, which is a serious felony, but an unarmed assault is usually not worth reporting.

I did say "usually." There are women who are big enough or strong enough or trained in martial arts, and they could do serious harm to their SO.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Abuse of their husbands by women is widely accepted, even considered a laughing matter in the USA. It's very common on TV, for instance for a woman to slap her husband or SO or even to punch or kick him. I remember seeing in the comics, Maggie beating up on Jiggs and Mrs. Dithers beating up on her hapless husband.

Now how many women here would turn off a show where a woman is slapping a guy because he said something she didn't like?

Is that crickets I hear chirping...?

 

[togitc]

Quite the opposite - how do you feel knowing I've been jailed for domestic abuse? I'd rather not talk about it anymore.

I feel for you. I hope you aren't in that situation anymore, luckily I got out.

 

[Katyusha]

I don't think it's any more okay for a woman to hit her husband than it is for a man to hit his wife. In fact, the only time I'd EVER condone hitting by either gender is if you're hitting back...self defense. Same thing with other forms of violence (raising bruises by grabbing, etc.).

Unfortunately there's a serious double standard. A husband and wife are having some kind of fight loud enough for neighbors to call the police. The police walk in and find both the man and the woman battered in some way, or he has hold of her arms or wrists and she's struggling...and automatically assume that the husband started it and the wife was merely defending herself. In fact, most people would make that assumption. And if the man says that he was holding her wrists to prevent her from continuing to hit him, and that she'd started the fight, he'll generally be laughed at and scorned; most people's first though would be, "Uh huh, SUUUUURE she started it. A little woman like that? I don't think so!" And she sits all smug because she knows that all she has to say is that she was trying to defend herself and most will believe her, including the justice system.

I don't know what the women in this study consider hitting because that wasn't revealed in the article. I also agree that those surveyed are hardly a representative population of women in Western society, let alone the world. But the fact remains that women can and do abuse men, and probably far more than we're aware. It's also a fact that there's a huge chunk of people out there, including in the justice system, that would never believe a man who said that he was a battered husband.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

OFCOURSE it's not OK for wives to hit their husbands! It's not OK for wives to hit their wives, it's not OK for husbands to hit their wives, it's not OK for husbands to hit their husbands, it's not OK for parents and/or step-parents or foster parents to hit their children, it's not OK for owners to hit their animals...

It's not OK to hit anyone! Period.


It's OK to defend yourself if someone hits you, but that's it.

 

[Katyusha]

She was merely attempting to point out how vague a definition 'hit' was. In many relationships, including mine, it is not uncommon for partners to playfully swipe at each other and I think a study that didn;t specifically define their terms to exclude such interpretations as this is going to do no good at redefining peoples' assumptions of domestic abuse.

One problem I see with the playful swipes is the same double standard. I know an awful lot of women who would call the police in a heartbeat if they saw my husband playfully bat me across my shoulder, but would laugh at the comedy of the situation if they saw me do that to him (yes, we both bat at each other like that when we're teasing and playing).

 

[3113]

so fuck your "hardly alarming" 3113. You should be aware that I have a bit of bad moment even being touched by another person at times, and might react compulsively if you make an aggressive move.

And you should re-read my post.

I understand where you are coming from, I really do having been attacked by guys. But I'm not going to take a study that says 200 women in Glasgow said it was "okay to hit their husbands" without first finding out what the study--or the women--defined as "hit." That would be like hearing a study of men where 90% say it's okay to "spank" their wives--but we're not told that 75% define spank as sex play, not beating those wives half to death.

No one should abuse anyone. Not men, not women, not kids, not animals. That men, women and kids do abuse men, women, kids and animals is a given. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to accept any study Jaq posts on anyone's inclination to do so--be they men, women or children--as proof of valid percentages, not if the study looks inadequate.

There is difference between me questioning the STUDY--read that again THE STUDY--and me questioning any kind of abuse that anyone does to another. I questioned the former, not the latter. So I would appreciate it if you dialed back your anger.

"Fuck you" doesn't make me change my mind. If you feel that any kind of light "hitting" a woman does, even the playful sort that I engage in with my husband when we flirt, is inexcusable and therefore the study is valid, then you should argue as much and explain why. Unlike Jaq, I have no hobby-horse here. I'm willing to be convinced that the study is valid--if someone presents good, quiet, calm rational for why I should accept it as valid.

 

[3113]

Bah, I wouldn't pay much attention to 3113. She's predictable like that.

Yep. Anytime you post this shit I question it. Because you are so predictable, Jaq, in your biases. And you present such flawed arguments to support those biases that they really are irresistible. Someday you'll post something with valid facts and no gaping potholes and I'll go into shock.

Most of us here have very sharp minds, are well educated, know how to do our research, know all about logical fallacies like using unrepresentative/small samples to prove a point, and are willing to question assumptions. Including our own. Maybe if you started to do the same, you'd find me less predictable. Till then, I'm happy to be your watchdog and call you on your shit.

 

[3113]

One problem I see with the playful swipes is the same double standard. I know an awful lot of women who would call the police in a heartbeat if they saw my husband playfully bat me across my shoulder, but would laugh at the comedy of the situation if they saw me do that to him (yes, we both bat at each other like that when we're teasing and playing).

True on that double standard--but it wasn't what the study was about. The study didn't ask policemen or men what they thought about women hitting men as compared to men hitting women--which, I think everyone on this forum pretty much agrees is a double standard (is this news to us? Here?). They asked women if they hit their husbands.

My husband *invites* me to playfully punch him and he, slowly and playfully, hits back. So if this study asked me "do you think it's okay to hit your husband" without defining what they meant by that, I'd have to say "yes." If they asked, "do you feel it's alright to physically injure your husband" they'd get an emphatic "NO!" I'd never think it right to do my husband such harm, and I certainly think there was something very wrong with me if I did do him harm intentionally.

 

[Huckleman2000]

After over 10 years apart from her, I've only in the last year begun to recognize my marriage as psychologically abusive. Even as therapists have characterized it that way to me, I always told myself that "It wasn't that bad."

The difficult thing to deal with, for me, has been the realization of my own participation in the abuse, in connection with a life-long clinical depression. I not only seem to be a victim of abuse, I seem to invite it, some of the behavior is so deeply ingrained.

At last, I'm beginning to recognize it all. I have glimpses through the fog in my mind.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

Yep. Anytime you post this shit I question it. Because you are so predictable, Jaq, in your biases. And you present such flawed arguments to support those biases that they really are irresistible. Someday you'll post something with valid facts and no gaping potholes and I'll go into shock.

Your definition of valid facts is anything that agrees with you.

You want a larger sample that hits closer to home? Let's see - how many women get offended by scenes of women slapping guys on comedy shows just for saying shit they didn't like? How many women get offended by scenes of guys slapping women just for saying shit they didn't like? I mention comedy shows because this effectively says domestic violence is funny as long as men are the victims.

Want examples? I can go back in time and point out a few scenes from Married with Children, or even when a guy got shoved onto his ass by a woman on Seinfeld. Ally McBeal, etc., the beat just goes on. Now how many comedies do you ever even see with a guy slapping a woman? Hmmm?

Oh, I already know your argument - plenty of women get offended by scenes of women slapping guys on TV. Okay. Show me the money. Show me the women who've protested this crap as fast as they would protest comedy shows where women get slapped.

Basically, yes, you're predictable.

And don't think I forgot how hostile you "ladies" got when I challenged ElizabethT's bullshit generalizations of men. You and several others already showed by your actions that you don't want to hear men protest about inequality.

 

[xssve]

"Fuck you" doesn't make me change my mind. If you feel that any kind of light "hitting" a woman does, even the playful sort that I engage in with my husband when we flirt, is inexcusable and therefore the study is valid, then you should argue as much and explain why. Unlike Jaq, I have no hobby-horse here. I'm willing to be convinced that the study is valid--if someone presents good, quiet, calm rational for why I should accept it as valid.

I'm sorry if I'm a bit emotional on the issue, in context, it sounded a lot like "she was asking for it" type shit - I don't trivilaize rape. You're talking about sparring, which is what I call the sort of play fighting you're referring to - in sparring you pull your punches, guys do it all the time, it's one of those male bonding things, because we can't hug, and some women do it too.

With a guy though, you usually fight back, till somebody counts coup, i.e., lands a punch that in a real fight would cause some damage (though I have known guys to escalate) - with a woman, the expected behavior is to laugh and shrug it off, pretend invulnerability (that didn't hurt) i.e. a man cannot hit a woman, period, even in self defense, and certain women will take advantage of that particular social dynamic.

I am more likely to simply not be there when your play punch lands, or worst case scenario, my arm is going to come up to block it so fucking fast, you risk getting your arm broken, it's pure instinct and adrenaline, and that is going to elicit stares and make me look like an idiot. What you don't know, is that I pretty much automatically protect my eyes, because I've been in very real situations where somebody was trying to claw them out.

A lot depends on context, eye contract, how well I know you etc. There are women who will attempt to use physical intimidation to establish dominance as well as men, and sometimes under the guise of play, which give you an out (I was just playing!) - they often go away thinking they've scared me, when in fact they narrowly avoided getting their asses swept and dumped on the floor, which would of course, constitute an overreaction from me.

This is why martial artists do that bowing thing before and after a fight, sparring or otherwise, "it means no hard feelings" win or lose, it's an honor thing. When guys spar spontaneously, it's usually in "slo mo", and that is the kinesthetic cue that it's sparring - women tend to be rather sudden about it.

If you go for the gut, I'll just double over and exhale sharply, as if you've really landed a good one - this gets stares and comments too, but the instinct here is to contract the stomach muscles in order to avoid organ damage from a sucker punch - in real fights with full grown men, I'll let them back me into a corner and pummel the body, I double over and start laughing hysterically (it tickles) - if they don't end up crying, eventually they get winded and are in a nice position for me to lay an elbow upside their heads.

There are more subtle things though, when another guy get's chesty with me - it's this weird thing where they bump into you and try to knock you over, often in public, usually followed up with an accusation that you were in their way, I can use a simple weight shifting technique, and they just bounce off: if you shift your weight at just the right moment, it's like hitting a brick wall - with a woman, I have no option but to back off or I end up looking like a fool, and in fact I look like a fool either way.

The dynamic is such that with a man, it's usually one on one, may the best man win - with women, it's automatically subject to gender politics and there is no winning scenario for a man, you cannot win - if you punch me in the arm and I respond by turning you over my knee and spanking you, I have to assume there's at least a 50/50 chance I'll be charged with assault.

Anyway, the point being, that physical confrontations between men can be complicated, but generally pretty straightforward - physical confrontations between the sexes are not - and the type of sparring you refer to usually takes place in public - if I appear to sort of "go away" for a moment, it's because I have some very complicated calculations to make.

 

[cloudy]

I don't believe any person should hit another person with intent to cause harm.

That said, however....while I understand, sort of, trying to level the playing field by being "outraged" over women hitting men, you just can't level it. The field is absolutely tilted over to the side of men being violent with women.

Just looking at homicide statistics, 31 percent of female victims were killed by an intimate partner. Only 4 percent of male victims were killed by an intimate partner.

It's just not possible to make it level, because it isn't level.

This is why martial artists do that bowing thing, "it means no hard feelings", win or lose, it's an honor thing

Sort of, but not really. It's a respect thing - you respect your opponent, first and foremost. If you do not offer your opponent respect, then you bring dishonor upon yourself.

 

[Guest]

My ex did the same thing togitc, with the kids in the back - knocked my glasses off. Luckily there was a clearing left by the road crew, and I managed to exit - at 60 MPH, and spin out on the gravel.

And I can do you one better - she would attack me and I would defend myself by grabbing her wrists to protect my eyes (she went for the eyes) - stupidly, when the police would arrive I would tell them this: " I grabbed her wrists to protect my eyes" - guess what? This is domestic abuse, and since she was less talkative, guess who ended up in jail?

She smashed a glass ashtray over my head while I was asleep, with my one year old next to me, shattered glass all over the bed. When I inquired as to just what the fuck she thought she was doing, she pulled a butcher knife on me, so I grabbed her wrists, and she bit on the chest (still have the scar). I pushed her off and she fell.

Guess who went to jail that time too, in fact I spent two weeks in county for it. The police told me I should have left my child in the bed covered with broken glass and run to the neighbors house in my underwear, the judge refused to even allow me to make a statement. Apparently, it's it's illegal to even defend yourself.

I sleep basically fully clothed to this day, including slippers, so fuck your "hardly alarming" 3113. You should be aware that I have a bit of bad moment even being touched by another person at times, and might react compulsively if you make an aggressive move.

This is horrifying. I'm so very sorry.

 

[xssve]

I don't believe any person should hit another person with intent to cause harm.

That said, however....while I understand, sort of, trying to level the playing field by being "outraged" over women hitting men, you just can't level it. The field is absolutely tilted over to the side of men being violent with women.

Just looking at homicide statistics, 31 percent of female victims were killed by an intimate partner. Only 4 percent of male victims were killed by an intimate partner.

It's just not possible to make it level, because it isn't level.

Oh absolutely, it's always the man - that's why they arrested me and not her in spite of the fact that I was always the one bleeding and taken to the emergency room and she never had a mark on her, it's all in the police reports - that didn't mean I wasn't the perpetrator, it just meant I was a wimp - which is pretty much in keeping with being a a wife beater to begin with, no?

My problem here is that you're suggesting there is no need to even inquire, that's bullshit, even if women do get the worst end of it, statistically speaking, and I'd be hard pressed to dispute that - this is not the same thing as saying they're always the victim.

As my story should illustrate, everybody has to sleep sometime, that makes it pretty much even - and that was hardly the first incident, it just happened to be the one where the police were called, possibly because I admit I raised my voice a bit when I inquired as to her state of mind.

And it's that whole cult of victimhood that she uses, a sort on Munchhausen syndrome: she provokes her partners into beating her, then she can get sympathy as a victim - and she almost got me a couple of times, luckily, I figured that out before I ever beat the crap out of her, which believe me, more than one person suggested - she would have won - in this case it's what she wanted, and she was manipulating the system to do it. Unfortunately, some of her other partners did not figure this out, she gets a few bumps and bruises and a lot of sympathy, they get tossed in the slammer. I may have been pencilwhipped and my life basically ruined, but I at least know that my conscience is clear.

Sort of, but not really. It's a respect thing - you respect your opponent, first and foremost. If you do not offer your opponent respect, then you bring dishonor upon yourself.

And that is different from "an honor thing" how? Kinesthetically, it's a symbolic ritual that signals the beginning and end of the fight, if you attack your opponent before the opening bow, or after the final bow, it's very dishonorable, and for practical reasons, this keep things from getting out of hand.

 

[cloudy]

Oh absolutely, it's always the man - that's why they arrested me and not her in spite of the fact that I was always the one bleeding and taken to the emergency room and she never had a mark on her, it's all in the police reports - that didn't mean I wasn't the perpetrator, it just meant I was a wimp - which is pretty much in keeping with being a a wife beater to begin with, no?

As my story should illustrate, everybody has to sleep sometime, that makes it pretty much even - and that was hardly the first incident, it just happened to be the one where the police were called, possibly because I admit I raised my voice a bit when I inquired as to her state of mind.

And you paid absolutely no attention to my first sentence. Typical.

You see that it's a post from me, and automatically erupt into flames instead of reading what I said.

You're not the only one who's ever been in an abusive relationship. While what happened to you is deplorable, it's not all about you.

eta: No, I am not "suggesting there is no need to even inquire." That's your own wishful thinking speaking - you just want a reason to argue. That's not even close to what I said, so just stop.

 

[xssve]

You know, fuck you too Cloudy, you never read anything, or appear to usnderstand half of what you read, your fucking knee just jerks, so I have no idea what you're complaining about - this is not a statistical thing here, you are not all women, we are talking about individuals, not statistics or stereotypes - when it comes to the law, every case must be tried on the evidence - if you perpetuate bias, you perpetuate injustice.

She happened to be an Indian, and I know some other pretty violent Dineh women, it's a matriarchy; Ute and Pueblo women typically are not that aggressive, there is a cultural thing at work here, and that's all I'm talking about, not whether men are better than women or vice versa, which is what you seem to want to repeat, like this is a cliche that nobody's ever heard before - this all happened during that period when man hating was all the rage and on all the talk shows, and I have no doubt that has something to do with it, examples were being made.

My point is that your gender politics has it's victims too - you can write it off as "too bad, that's what you get for being a man, hahahah" but I'm not a fucking statistic, and if I were a lesser man, there would be some clueless girl paying the price for it right about now, just as her abuse was probably the result of someone else's precedent - man or woman, I'm not going to say, I don't have that information.

So it goes.