I am hesitant to see Valkyrie....

[ottohauser1977]

.....because:

1. I don't like seeing a historical film about my native country in the hands of Tom Cruise, a Scientologist.
2. I don't trust Hollywood's treatment of Germany and the Second World War.

Still, I must say that I admire von Stauffenberg, his misguided religious fanaticism notwithstanding. He was still better than the Nazis and offered an alternative. Just goes to show how bad National Socialism really was, that compared to it, Roman Catholicism is the lesser evil.

 

[JackLuis]

I see your point. The good Col. was just about 6 years too late and he put the bomb in the wrong place. Behind a leg of the table rather thant on the other side of the table. So he was slow and sloppy.

As for Tom, it is probably a bang up thriller, so your fear of a true story is probably foundless.

 

[freshface]

I see your point. The good Col. was just about 6 years too late and he put the bomb in the wrong place. Behind a leg of the table rather thant on the other side of the table. So he was slow and sloppy.

In defense of the poor COL, the briefcase was moved between the time that he left and it exploded. If he'd really wanted to see the job done, he'd have stayed until the bomb went off.

 

[3113]

2. I don't trust Hollywood's treatment of Germany and the Second World War.

In defense of Hollywood's depiction of Germany and the Second World War, Hollywood movies always pick well spoken, Royal Shakespeare actors to play the Germans...excepting, of course, any heroic lead which goes to the American with box office potential and lesser-to-non-existent acting talents like Tom Cruise.

That's gotta count for something.

 

[neonlyte]

What the fuck has Valkyrie to do with Germany unless were going for Wagner-ian take on the Saga's... in which case, why not throw in a handful of Pashtuns to balance out the Scientologist. Tom Cruise, apart from everything else (like not being female) is far too short to play a Valkyrie, he could barely see above a litre jar of grog, let alone reach the serving table. Stupid title. Can't wait for it to come out

 

[JagFarlane]

Hmmmm even though I'm a history buff I really have no desire to see it. Just can't say why though

 

[trysail]

I admire real courage and the attempt on Hitler's life took real courage. As bad as Hollywood is at mangling facts and truth, I commend the effort to remind and educate those who may not be aware of the episode. I don't expect the nitwit Cruise to get the facts right. William L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall Of The Third Reich details the gruesome and bloody vengeance taken by the Nazis on the participants and thousands of relatives and others who were merely suspected of involvement.

They deserve to be remembered:

( a partial list )
Lt. Col. Klaus Philip Schenk, Count von Stauffenberg
Field Marshall Erwin von Witzleben
General Erich Hoepner
General Hemuth Stieff
General Paul von Hase
Lt. Dr. Hans Hagen
Lt. Klausing
Lt. Bernardis
Count Peter Yorck von Wartenburg
General Henning von Tresckow
Count Friedrich Werner von Schulenburg
Count Fritz von der Schulenburg
General Fritz Lindemann
Colonel von Boeselager
Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Colonel Georg Hansen
Count von Helldorf
Colonel von Hofacker
Dr. Jens Peter Jessen
Otto Klep
Dr. Karl Langbehn
Professor Adolf Richwein
Count Berthold von Stauffenburg
Count von Moltke
Trott zu Solz

 

[ottohauser1977]

I admire real courage and the attempt on Hitler's life took real courage. As bad as Hollywood is at mangling facts and truth, I commend the effort to remind and educate those who may not be aware of the episode. I don't expect the nitwit Cruise to get the facts right. William L. Shirer's The Rise and Fall Of The Third Reich details the gruesome and bloody vengeance taken by the Nazis on the participants and thousands of relatives and others who were merely suspected of involvement.

They deserve to be remembered:

( a partial list )
Lt. Col. Klaus Philip Schenk, Count von Stauffenberg
Field Marshall Erwin von Witzleben
General Erich Hoepner
General Hemuth Stieff
General Paul von Hase
Lt. Dr. Hans Hagen
Lt. Klausing
Lt. Bernardis
Count Peter Yorck von Wartenburg
General Henning von Tresckow
Count Friedrich Werner von Schulenburg
Count Fritz von der Schulenburg
General Fritz Lindemann
Colonel von Boeselager
Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Colonel Georg Hansen
Count von Helldorf
Colonel von Hofacker
Dr. Jens Peter Jessen
Otto Klep
Dr. Karl Langbehn
Professor Adolf Richwein
Count Berthold von Stauffenburg
Count von Moltke
Trott zu Solz




A list of men to be honored, for sure. All the more reason that someone from a quasi-Nazi cult of religious fanatics like Scientology shouldn't play the heroic role of Graf von Stauffenberg. Stauffenberg wasn't perfect, but he was still a hero and deserved better.

Oh, I would add to that list the Desert Fox himself, Generalfeldmarschall Erwin Rommel. He was very much a part of the conspiracy, something that the Third Reich took pains to cover up.

 

[AchtungNight]

I'm sure Stauffenberg's grandson who worked on the film would disagree with you, Otto. I saw it, it was a good movie, enough said. You are not supporting Scientology by enjoying a decent film. Tom Cruise was not the only actor who worked on the film, just the most visible. You're not going to find support for intolerance here. Go to xenu.net or some other anti-Scientology site.

 

[ottohauser1977]

I'm sure Stauffenberg's grandson who worked on the film would disagree with you, Otto. I saw it, it was a good movie, enough said. You are not supporting Scientology by enjoying a decent film. Tom Cruise was not the only actor who worked on the film, just the most visible. You're not going to find support for intolerance here. Go to xenu.net or some other anti-Scientology site.

I'm not trying to be intolerant. I just find it disturbing that an actor from a quasi-Nazi sect is the lead in a presumably anti-Nazi film.

 

[DesertPirate]

I have heard nothing good about the movie.
Everyone seems to think Cruise is terrible, local friends and most critics.

 

[Huckleman2000]

I'm hesitant to see it because it looks like it's just, "TOM CRUISE WEARS AN EYEPATCH AND TRIES TO KILL HITLER!"
He's really going off the deep end, now.

 

[Storyfeller]

You are quite right not to trust Hollywood with anything historical. We scarcely need to remind ourselves how they would have us believe that America and Americans are the only people on Earth capable of winning battles or saving the day.

However I would point out that the public image of your native country, in its time, has been in worse hands than those of scientologists.

Also, just as Wagner was capable of showing many sides, producing magnificent music as well as being a petty minded racist, so it is reasonable to accept that actors are capable of doing a good day job outside of their weird evening/weekend interests.

I never thought I'd hear myself saying this about someone who was self-evidently cast originally as a pretty-boy 'star', but I have warmed to Cruise in recent years. It has struck me that, on those rare occasions when he has been allowed to act, he has turned in creditable performances.

I guess, generally, he's had to struggle to break free of the typecasting. Schade, oder? So ist das Leben...

 

[TheeGoatPig]

i am not going to see it just because it is World War 2, and that era is so overdone. I have been bored with it for years. Stop milking it and let it die already!

 

[off2bed]

It's just a movie.

I doubt I'll see it, unless it's on TV some time in the future and there's nothing else to watch.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

All I know is I've never seen such TV saturation for a movie in my life. It looks pretty dull to me. I really don't think the botched attempt on Hitler's life was the most exciting thing that ever happened in history.

But look -- Cruise didn't write the thing. He didn't produce or direct it did he? So what? So you won't see it because of his religion? That's kind of ironic isn't it? In a movie about the Nazis you'll discriminate against the actor because of his religion? What if he were a Jew? Would you not go see it because he was a Jew?

What is it with you Germans?

 

[off2bed]

All I know is I've never seen such TV saturation for a movie in my life. It looks pretty dull to me. I really don't think the botched attempt on Hitler's life was the most exciting thing that ever happened in history.

But look -- Cruise didn't write the thing. He didn't produce or direct it did he? So what? So you won't see it because of his religion? That's kind of ironic isn't it? In a movie about the Nazis you'll discriminate against the actor because of his religion? What if he were a Jew? Would you not go see it because he was a Jew?

What is it with you Germans?

Damn, you're good.

 

[OzArrian]

I am curious about 'Valkyrie' but ultimately I don't want to see the film because...

1. Cruise is a joke as an actor, as a member of the loony cult that is just the money-making offshoot of a z-grade pulp sci-fi writer, and as a participant in that utterly fatuous self-glorifying witless world of Hollywood celebrity-dom.
2. As pointed out in earlier posts Hollywood's ability to bowdlerize history and non-American culture lies somewhere between the ludicrous and the offensive
3. The whole Stauffenberg story was depicted in a far more effective and intelligent manner in the German miniseries/TV Movie "Operation Valkyrie", starring Sebastian Koch in the central role (he has been in such notable German films as "The Lives of Others").
4. German resistance to Hitler is a far more complicated story that a Tom Cruise ego trip. None of the participants were lily-white morally and ultimately those same generals who were involved in the plot were all willing to have their careers progressed beforehand by the growth of the Wehrmacht under Hitler and the Nazis.
5. Also as noted below, I'm tired of seeing British actors smoothly playing Nazis and Yanks playing heroic figures. Check out 'The Pianist' for a far more balanced evocation of the complex moral dilemma in casting and portraying Germans in WW2.

 

[AllardChardon]

My son and his best friend went to see it and found it very dull. Slow and tedious. I would never pay to see this one at the theatre. I will probably rent it when it goes off new release.

Cruise is talented. We watched Magnolia the other night. Given the right script, the man can act. But I am not a fan of his personal life or choices for religion.

After the Hari Krishnas lost favor in LA, Scientology hit it big. Several of my friends got on the bandwagon. Werner Erhardt and his Sensitivity Training or EST was next. They were worse than the Scientologist for arrogance.

I was their waitress, after their seminar, at the LA Marriott Hotel. They were without a doubt, the rudest assholes I ever met. That tells you the true nature of people. How they treat servants.

 

[Huckleman2000]

[...]
I never thought I'd hear myself saying this about someone who was self-evidently cast originally as a pretty-boy 'star', but I have warmed to Cruise in recent years. It has struck me that, on those rare occasions when he has been allowed to act, he has turned in creditable performances.

I guess, generally, he's had to struggle to break free of the typecasting. Schade, oder? So ist das Leben...

Speaking as an actor, I think you're mis-reading the way it works.

He wasn't cast as a pretty-boy 'star, that's simply what he became. He's extremely good at playing *Tom Cruise* in an earnest and convincing way, but he's by no means a character actor. Take Rain Man - Dustin Hoffman could have played Cruise's role easily, but there's no way Cruise could be convincing in Hoffman's role. He doesn't have the talent to make an audience believe he's someone so obviously different from himself. His eyes, while piercing, aren't very expressive. His radiant smile leaps from the screen; his humanity does not. His successful attempts to stretch away from *Tom Cruise* have mostly been playing up the darker aspects of his screen personality, especially his creepy intensity.

Someone with Cruise's star-power doesn't audition for movie projects. They package themselves as part of the project. At some point in every star's career, their opinion of themself exceeds their actual talent. They lay a big, stinking, bomb.

 

[OzArrian]

(snip) Cruise is talented. We watched Magnolia the other night. Given the right script, the man can act. But I am not a fan of his personal life or choices for religion.

Yes, Cruise was actually quite good in 'Magnolia'. I wonder if it was because his character was a self-possessed charlatan with an ego built on incredibly shaky emotional, moral and intellectual grounds, hence he could draw on his own attributes for the role.

Now as for some enlightening words from Herr Von Cruise himself re "Valkyrie" check out this UK Daily Mail article.

Isn't it reassuring that Tom's dreamt of killing Hitler since a kid and research Stauffenberg by watching some old TV docos.

 

[ottohauser1977]

All I know is I've never seen such TV saturation for a movie in my life. It looks pretty dull to me. I really don't think the botched attempt on Hitler's life was the most exciting thing that ever happened in history.

But look -- Cruise didn't write the thing. He didn't produce or direct it did he? So what? So you won't see it because of his religion? That's kind of ironic isn't it? In a movie about the Nazis you'll discriminate against the actor because of his religion? What if he were a Jew? Would you not go see it because he was a Jew?

What is it with you Germans?

First, I have nothing against Jews. I'm not a fan of Israel, but that's a separate issue.

Second, Scientology isn't a religion. It's a fascist movement dedicated to very Nazi-like goals. That's why I oppose it and find Cruise an odd choice for the lead.

 

[CharleyH]

All I know is I've never seen such TV saturation for a movie in my life. It looks pretty dull to me. I really don't think the botched attempt on Hitler's life was the most exciting thing that ever happened in history.

Agreed

But look -- Cruise didn't write the thing. He didn't produce or direct it did he? So what? So you won't see it because of his religion? That's kind of ironic isn't it? In a movie about the Nazis you'll discriminate against the actor because of his religion? What if he were a Jew? Would you not go see it because he was a Jew?

What is it with you Germans?

It's odd Doc. Here I am trying to figure out how to tell a story from the eyes of a female German guard. I don't agree with how she lived her short life, and I keep telling myself that I WOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT. However, I do also wonder ... would I have been?

 

[SnoopDog]

Being a German that is also studying film and american studies, I'm going to compromise...

...I'm going to see it and then slam it to pieces in front of my friends.

=)


Snoops

 

[AchtungNight]

As I have told you before, Otto, I am a former member of Scientology. The people I knew when I was inside, and those I still know, are not fascists, nor are they even remotely dedicated to any such goal. You probably won't believe me, but I'm saying it anyway. Maybe Scientology's different in your country or at Tom Cruise's level, maybe you have the right.

I'm sorry to get on your case about this. It's a personal issue for me. When Valkyrie came out here in America a month ago, people were encouraging a boycott of it for much the same reasons you are. I spoke out against the idea on IMDB, reminding them that Tom Cruise was not the only actor on the film and we never know where our money goes after we spend it anyway. I also decried their advice that if one had to see Valkyrie, one should buy tickets for another movie and then see Valkyrie instead. That is something I consider theft.

The organizer of the boycott took my words and posted them on his website, then informed me he had done so in order to have people laugh at me. Some Scientology critics claim their cause isn't about intolerance and then prove themselves wrong with their very words. Yes, I know some do exactly the opposite and some have a valid case. However, when you're dehumanizing a whole group of people by calling them "Nazi clams" and saying that they can only lie and deceive and that everything they do hurts people and that if you defend them you must be one of them- any truth behind your message gets lost.

See Valkyrie or not, it's your decision. I saw it more for the history than for Tom Cruise, who I agree is an overrated actor and very full of himself. There are many more interesting people in Hollywood who have gotten less press. I thought the movie was entertaining and that much of the criticism was unfounded. If you want to make the opposite judgment I give you that right. I don't think it's good to prejudge something before you see it, though. Nor should you encourage others to do the same. I hope you didn't start this thread intending to do that here.