understanding discipline

[myinnerslut]

discipline is a topic that gets brought up a lot, and there are a lot of different opinions about the discipline vs. punishment concept. i was thinking about it and came up with an analogy for discipline used correctly. since things are slow right now i figured id post it and see if it sparked some conversation.

so go ahead: agree, disagree, come up with an analogy of your own. restless minds want to know, what are your thoughts on discipline?

my analogy

discipline done properly is like polishing a stone.

1- a flaw is located in the stone (the pyl acts in a way that requires correction)

2- the stone gets tumbled around and beaten up a bit, a process by which the flaw is removed (disciplinary action is taken to confront or combat this action)

3- if done properly, the flaw is removed and the stone is a more refined, more polished work (based on the disciplinary action, behavioral modification has been achieved and the action will not be repeated)

4- if you let the stone be for a long period of time without any maintenance work, it will develop new flaws (ignoring the pyl for a long period will most likely cuase actions the PYL does not like or want)

5- a perfectly flawless stone cannot be found in nature without it having undergone some polishing (it is not possible to be perfect)

 

[graceanne]

discipline is a topic that gets brought up a lot, and there are a lot of different opinions about the discipline vs. punishment concept. i was thinking about it and came up with an analogy for discipline used correctly. since things are slow right now i figured id post it and see if it sparked some conversation.

so go ahead: agree, disagree, come up with an analogy of your own. restless minds want to know, what are your thoughts on discipline?

my analogy

discipline done properly is like polishing a stone.

1- a flaw is located in the stone (the pyl acts in a way that requires correction)

2- the stone gets tumbled around and beaten up a bit, a process by which the flaw is removed (disciplinary action is taken to confront or combat this action)

3- if done properly, the flaw is removed and the stone is a more refined, more polished work (based on the disciplinary action, behavioral modification has been achieved and the action will not be repeated)

4- if you let the stone be for a long period of time without any maintenance work, it will develop new flaws (ignoring the pyl for a long period will most likely cuase actions the PYL does not like or want)

5- a perfectly flawless stone cannot be found in nature without it having undergone some polishing (it is not possible to be perfect)

I've heard that analogy for why God allows tough things to happen to people.

I've also found that analogy REALLY pisses off people who've lost a child. (Never used it, but someone did to my sister in law. She ripped them a new one.)

But it's a good analogy. I always figure it's a lot like a parent/child relationship. Training them to be the best they can be. Children are born selfish, self centered, and rude. lol It's through love and correction that they hopefully become adults that aren't any of those things.

 

[myinnerslut]

one of my professors said something similiar about becoming a teacher. i tweaked it and twisted it a bit so that it became the version i used to apply to discipline.

i can imagine telling pretty much anything of this sort to someone who had lost a child would earn some pretty serious anger.

 

[intothewoods]

That is the way I think of discipline as well (not wink wink, discipline, but actual discipline). Some people before have said that it's less about improving the pyl, and more about a cathartic release that the pyl craves to feel better about a fuck-up.

I get the concept of the release, although it's never quite worked for me. When I feel like I've really screwed up, discipline/punishment does nothing.

Back to the polishing the stone analogy...It's something that ultimately doesn't work for me in a relationship. I had once discussed it with a PYL who was interested in that approach and ultimately I just couldn't shake the feeling that the PYL was this taking on this God-like role, and I bristled at that. It just never felt natural for me.

Now, different strokes for different folks and all that. If it works for you and yours, good on ya.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

discipline is a topic that gets brought up a lot, and there are a lot of different opinions about the discipline vs. punishment concept.

I've generally viewed discipline as more of a guidance tool.

Sometimes collaborative, even nurturing, although the actual acts used in said discipline are often not so. I see it as both working to make said improvements in the behaviour.

Punishment is more singular, contained. A once off act to cause some suffering for some misbehaviour. The mindset is different, and to me, it doesn't often result in any real change, just a temporary bandaid as said behaviour isn't repeated for a while. But it's still there.

 

[the captians wench]

That is the way I think of discipline as well (not wink wink, discipline, but actual discipline). Some people before have said that it's less about improving the pyl, and more about a cathartic release that the pyl craves to feel better about a fuck-up.

I get the concept of the release, although it's never quite worked for me. When I feel like I've really screwed up, discipline/punishment does nothing.

Back to the polishing the stone analogy...It's something that ultimately doesn't work for me in a relationship. I had once discussed it with a PYL who was interested in that approach and ultimately I just couldn't shake the feeling that the PYL was this taking on this God-like role, and I bristled at that. It just never felt natural for me.

Now, different strokes for different folks and all that. If it works for you and yours, good on ya.

I think it's "punishment" that people say is cathartic, not "discipline", but it doesn't work for me either. I'm so hard on myself that actual punishment is more for him to feel like "okay it's done let's move on" than for me. I'm pretty easy in that if he says "okay baby I forgive you" then I can move on, but until I hear that I'll beat myself up with guilt. Punishment is how he says "okay you've paid me for your crime, you're forgiven"...sorta anyway.

Discipline I tend to think of more as a "no no sweetie" pat me on the hand kinda deal. Two word's will make my world come crashing down, "I'm disapointed". Once I hear that little fraze, I just want to curl up in a ball and die. So this is more of a correction for me than anything else. Anything after that is for his benifit...tho I guess everything is really.

 

[McGyver2008]

discipline is a topic that gets brought up a lot, and there are a lot of different opinions about the discipline vs. punishment concept. i was thinking about it and came up with an analogy for discipline used correctly. since things are slow right now i figured id post it and see if it sparked some conversation.

so go ahead: agree, disagree, come up with an analogy of your own. restless minds want to know, what are your thoughts on discipline?

my analogy

discipline done properly is like polishing a stone.

1- a flaw is located in the stone (the pyl acts in a way that requires correction)

2- the stone gets tumbled around and beaten up a bit, a process by which the flaw is removed (disciplinary action is taken to confront or combat this action)

3- if done properly, the flaw is removed and the stone is a more refined, more polished work (based on the disciplinary action, behavioral modification has been achieved and the action will not be repeated)

4- if you let the stone be for a long period of time without any maintenance work, it will develop new flaws (ignoring the pyl for a long period will most likely cuase actions the PYL does not like or want)

5- a perfectly flawless stone cannot be found in nature without it having undergone some polishing (it is not possible to be perfect)

I would say that I agree with most of what you have stated, but I would disagree about a stone developing more flaws than what it started with. I can see that happening in people, but not so much in nature.

And as food for thought, something that was told to me once by an employer.
"Practice does not make perfect. Practice only accentuates the flaws you already have. Perfect practice makes perfect"

 

[graceanne]

one of my professors said something similiar about becoming a teacher. i tweaked it and twisted it a bit so that it became the version i used to apply to discipline.

i can imagine telling pretty much anything of this sort to someone who had lost a child would earn some pretty serious anger.

Another lady said to her "Well, at least you know he's in Heaven."

I asked her what she did, and she said all she could do was gape at her.

 

[eastern sun]

I usually think that discipline is my domain. Punishment is his.

 

[myinnerslut]

The mindset is different, and to me, it doesn't often result in any real change, just a temporary bandaid as said behaviour isn't repeated for a while. But it's still there.

so to you discipline fixes the problem and punishment only covers it up? would you say you are more likely to repeat a misbehavior (suspension of disbelief for a second) if it were handeled with discipline or punishment the first time?

When I feel like I've really screwed up, discipline/punishment does nothing.

what does help in that case? it is a matter of time, or is there something you do to bring about your forgiveness or yourself?

I would say that I agree with most of what you have stated, but I would disagree about a stone developing more flaws than what it started with. I can see that happening in people, but not so much in nature.

that part fit better with the people, i agree, but i wanted to make it fit in the analogy anyway so i included it. i was thinking along the line of if you put the stone down in a drawer or on a shelf somewhere, it might roll around, get scratched, accumulate dust, need to be wiped off etc. it wouldnt stay in the exact same state as you left it in.

I usually think that discipline is my domain. Punishment is his.

can you elaborate on this? what is the difference that one falls to him and one to you? i dont think ive heard it split like that before and im very curious as to the thought process behind it. do you mean self discipline here or being disciplined?

 

[intothewoods]

what does help in that case? it is a matter of time, or is there something you do to bring about your forgiveness or yourself?

The only time I ever experienced a true punishment scene, it was supposed to be in response to lying to my ex. The whole big painful scary scene made me feel better for a while, but ultimately I still felt guilty. What helped ultimately was to make amends and forgive myself, though I still feel guilt and a sense of loss for my child.

But that's like a nuclear level fuckup.

Then again, I suppose that's what I do for non nuclear level fuckups as well. I make amends to my PYL, we talk about it and we move on. I'm human. He's human. For the most part, we have disagreements, we stubbornly get pissy with each other, and then we stop and talk about what the disagreement is really about, what is behind the pissyness, etc. I do not feel a desire to be punished or absolved in some way, and he feels no need to punish me. I don't think it would do a thing for him.

 

[Lizzie_Borden]

so to you discipline fixes the problem and punishment only covers it up? would you say you are more likely to repeat a misbehavior (suspension of disbelief for a second) if it were handeled with discipline or punishment the first time?

Mmmmm, not quite. More that punishment addresses the actual actions, where as discipline addresses the underlying causes.

After a punishment, yes, that behaviour can stop. ymmw but for me, it's always a concious effort at keeping it stopped. Whatever caused it, is still in there, it's still a part of me. And it may resurface.

Discipline on the other hand, delves deeper and addresses the whys, and the hows.

Which is why I liked your analogy. The being beaten and tumbled around a bit, polished until that part of me is bought to the surface, examined, understood and smoothed away. I didn't read that in a physical sense, but more a mental one.

I guess then, to me, punishment is a physical act. It can include that absolvement as needed. But discipline is more holistic. It's a process. It takes time. It's physical, mental, emotional, spiritual even, if you're so inclined. It's a moulding and shaping of a person and their behaviours, it's learning and understanding what makes them tick and ironing out the bad bits.

Looking back at the bit of blathering, I guess I'm seeing punishment as the here and now, and discipline as the ongoing, the journey.

 

[intothewoods]

I think it's "punishment" that people say is cathartic, not "discipline", but it doesn't work for me either. I'm so hard on myself that actual punishment is more for him to feel like "okay it's done let's move on" than for me. I'm pretty easy in that if he says "okay baby I forgive you" then I can move on, but until I hear that I'll beat myself up with guilt. Punishment is how he says "okay you've paid me for your crime, you're forgiven"...sorta anyway.

Discipline I tend to think of more as a "no no sweetie" pat me on the hand kinda deal. Two word's will make my world come crashing down, "I'm disapointed". Once I hear that little fraze, I just want to curl up in a ball and die. So this is more of a correction for me than anything else. Anything after that is for his benifit...tho I guess everything is really.

Right, I guess that's true. I think discipline could be either a synonym for punishment, or could refer to more of an ongoing thing - training, etc. It's that training thing I can't really go for.

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>

Yes, exactly.

 

[eastern sun]

can you elaborate on this? what is the difference that one falls to him and one to you? i dont think ive heard it split like that before and im very curious as to the thought process behind it. do you mean self discipline here or being disciplined?

I'm assuming for now that the goal is changing my behavior.

Discipline implies that I've learned or am learning a new set of behaviors. And though he may show me or guide me towards those behaviors, it is ultimately up to me to do them, and make them habitual.

On the other hand, punishment lies completely in his hands.

I had a fantasy that my D/s relationship would involve a formal "training" period. A period during which I would give responsibility for my behavior to him, and he would "discipline" me (i.e. change my behavior) though a carefully controlled process of rewards and punishments.

Undoubtably, there are people for whom this is true. But in my case, it stayed a fantasy.

I kept waiting for the choke-chain experience. I really wanted a collar and a leash. But he didn't want to teach me how to sit, and walk, and heel.

He wanted me to learn how to please him. How to make him happy. At times when even he wasn't sure what would work.

He wanted the freedom to be whoever he was going to be, and do whatever he was going to do.

And this "training" didn't require that I follow a set of formal protocols. It required that I develop a set of what I think of as internal "disciplines" in order to respond as required in any given moment.

And when I don't respond as required. . . . and sometimes even when I do respond as required . . . . the punishment is his to deliver.

(Does that make sense?)

 

[YourCaptor]

An analogy for discipline

Wax on, wax off

 

[RJMasters]

I think Discipline is one of those subjects which are more contextual in nature when discussing it. In other words, I think a person can speak of Discipline in both the context of training or in punishment and still be 100% accurate.

From a more generalized sense, I think an important "truism" regarding Discipline is acknowledging its presence within a relationship between two people. In relationships which are not deem to be BDSM, Discipline is not present due to the fact that in those types of relationship, it is generally more true than not that both people in the relationship share equally in the power and control of the relationship. It is my simple observation that in such a relationship, Discipline doesn't have a place for expression and is usually met with opposition if one in the relationship trys to exert control via disciplinary methods.

BDSM relationships where Dominance and Submission are clearly established, accepted, and desired by both, creates an natural habitat for the practice of Displine regardless of the flavor or style in which the two decide to practice it. For me, regardless of whether discipline is a strictly regimented and structured activity between two people or more whimsical in the nature of its expression, Discipline to me represents a magical element of the BDSM relationship because it is by nature an expression, extention, and natural consequence to the over-all dominant/submissive dynamic.

For sometime, I use to think errantly about discipline as I often thought of it simillar to the analogy of a parent/child or teacher/student relationship. I am sure others may do this and it works for them, but for me I realized that these analogies were unsatisfactory when it came to understanding the reality of my wants and needs. By way of explanation, both of those analogys do have some aspects of discipline which one can draw some level of understanding, but it is misplaced for me to apply them directly to what I want out of a BDSM relationship. the reason for this is because much of the motives for my BDSM wants and needs are selfish by nature. In those other analogies a child really doesn't have a choice that the parent or the teacher is in a position of power and authority and can administer discipline to the child. The dynamic of this relationship dictates that a parent and teacher should not have selfish motives in the despencing of discipline to a child, but rather their motive needs to be one in which the justification for despencing discipline is justified because they believe it is in the best interest of the child's welfare.

So in the parent/child or teacher/student dynamic, the one who is in a position of authority and power should not use that position with any kind of selfish motive nor does the child have a choice. In an adult BDSM relationship, dominants motives often spring from selfish desires and wants, and the submissive does have the choice in allowing the dominant a position of power and authority over them. It is because of these differences, i have come to realize that those analogies are truly inadequate to explain how discipline functions within an adult BDSM relationship.

The analogy I think better describes discipline in a BDSM relationship would be more like my expereince in joining the Marine Corps. I was making a choice to put myself under authority and agree to live by a new set of standards that were not my own, but would be dictated to me by others. After joining they set me to bootcamp for an intense period of training in order to make me useful for the purposes they wanted and in doing so I benefitted greatly from it myself and learn discipline. I then live in a system where good behavior was rewarded and bad behavior was punished. Lastly, it wasn't something that I was playing at, but it was real life, and there was the likelyhood that my life could even be forfeit should that be required of me. All the while it was in "service to my country". In a strange, yet remarkably clear way, the analogy of my joining Marines better serves me in my understanding than anything else.

 

[Harmony_1985]

In my eyes, discipline is to teach me new behaviours, and perfect existing behaviours. Discipline helps me to grow and develop as a submissive, so that I can serve Sir the best I can.

Punishment is for when I've broken a rule or a protocol.

Sir is always reassuring me that once I've had a punishment, that's it, its done, over and done with and we move on, but the guilt does still tend to linger with me a little bit. It takes a day or so for me to finally be able to say to myself "yep I'm over it now".

Only thing is, Sir says I'm too good, cos he has nothing to punish me for!

 

[intothewoods]

<snip>the reason for this is because much of the motives for my BDSM wants and needs are selfish by nature. In those other analogies a child really doesn't have a choice that the parent or the teacher is in a position of power and authority and can administer discipline to the child. The dynamic of this relationship dictates that a parent and teacher should not have selfish motives in the despencing of discipline to a child, but rather their motive needs to be one in which the justification for despencing discipline is justified because they believe it is in the best interest of the child's welfare.

So in the parent/child or teacher/student dynamic, the one who is in a position of authority and power should not use that position with any kind of selfish motive nor does the child have a choice. In an adult BDSM relationship, dominants motives often spring from selfish desires and wants, and the submissive does have the choice in allowing the dominant a position of power and authority over them. It is because of these differences, i have come to realize that those analogies are truly inadequate to explain how discipline functions within an adult BDSM relationship.

I like that you identify it as a selfish interest. I think I would generally be a bit more accepting of that style of D if it weren't presented as the pyl is in desperate need of guidance.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

There's a little phrase that a friend of mine used to keep on her desk at work and this thread just made me think of it.

When I'm right, no-one remembers. When I'm wrong, no-one forgets.

It's over simplistic but it's how I see the discipline/punishment relationship between Master and I, in a lot of ways. I attempt discipline, serve his needs as best I can and place my own below them. I try to mould myself into the slave he wants, who is also the slave I desperately want to be. There is a symbiosis in that common goal that makes my self discipline as vital to our dynamic as his imposed authority and direction. When I get things 'right' and Master is happy with my service, that is very much it's own reward. I don't need as many carrots as I do swats with the stick by a very long way. Only when I fail or disappoint him will he turn his attention to my service and become active in altering how I act - whether that be through punishment or just communication. Master is not an ogre and he does recognise effort as well as success.

Actually, that makes me think of something my father said once.

The only difference between bravery and stupidity is success.

Sometimes I don't know whether I'm acting as I should until I find out afterwards if I succeeded or not. Almost everything is subject to change or amendment according to Master's mood. Anticipatory service he might appreciate on one day might make him feel oppressed and fussed over at another time. I try to work with his moods and it gives everything I do a fluidity and unpredictability that makes even mundane, everyday tasks a constantly fresh and new challenge.

Deep in my masochistic heart I love his capriciousness and the knowledge that there is no all encompassing list of rules or unchanging rights and wrongs. Master has no desire to micromanage me and burden himself with directing things I can manage perfectly well unsupervised. He wants a devoted slave but not one who wrings her hands and despairs at every new challenge, unable to show initiative or act as he would wish without pestering him to make every little decision. This gives me quite a scope for error sometimes and it still amazes me how capable I still am of completely misreading Master on occasion and acting contrary to what he would have liked or expected. It keeps our journey fun and eventful however and where would we be if I didn't fuck everything up and require punishment on occasion? I need to fear him as a penitent needs to fear his wrathful God. Even though I know he has my best interests at heart, I need that fear of his disappointment, displeasure and anger like a drug.

And we both know that I will never be perfect. I don't think either of us would be happy if I was.

 

[unregistered]

 

[myinnerslut]

Sir is always reassuring me that once I've had a punishment, that's it, its done, over and done with and we move on, but the guilt does still tend to linger with me a little bit. It takes a day or so for me to finally be able to say to myself "yep I'm over it now".

Master says something similar about the day after. its a new day, its a fresh start. i have a little bit of trouble with that because whether its discipline or punishment, i am always "down" for a while after.

i wake up in the morning feeling fine, then all the memories about what happened and the resulting action (again, be it discipline or punishment) come flooding back to me and i feel awful. it takes me a while to get over that.

Master says not to beat myself up (that its his job, not mine ) but its still hard to put a smile on my fae and act like its all fine if im feeling down.

 

[Homburg]

I'm assuming for now that the goal is changing my behavior.

Discipline implies that I've learned or am learning a new set of behaviors. And though he may show me or guide me towards those behaviors, it is ultimately up to me to do them, and make them habitual.

On the other hand, punishment lies completely in his hands.

I had a fantasy that my D/s relationship would involve a formal "training" period. A period during which I would give responsibility for my behavior to him, and he would "discipline" me (i.e. change my behavior) though a carefully controlled process of rewards and punishments.

Undoubtably, there are people for whom this is true. But in my case, it stayed a fantasy.

I kept waiting for the choke-chain experience. I really wanted a collar and a leash. But he didn't want to teach me how to sit, and walk, and heel.

He wanted me to learn how to please him. How to make him happy. At times when even he wasn't sure what would work.

He wanted the freedom to be whoever he was going to be, and do whatever he was going to do.

And this "training" didn't require that I follow a set of formal protocols. It required that I develop a set of what I think of as internal "disciplines" in order to respond as required in any given moment.

And when I don't respond as required. . . . and sometimes even when I do respond as required . . . . the punishment is his to deliver.

(Does that make sense?)

Makes perfect sense. If I had notes written down on the process of "training" they would read much like this. I do not train someone how to act. They learn how to please me. If I train, I am doing the work. If the person is learning to serve me, they are doing the work. I would rather she shows the desire to learn, serve, and mold herself to my wishes than to have to chase after her like a dog trainer working a recalcitrant mutt.

 

[RJMasters]

I like that you identify it as a selfish interest. I think I would generally be a bit more accepting of that style of D if it weren't presented as the pyl is in desperate need of guidance.

Bingo.

 

[CutieMouse]

Bingo.

[hijack]

Nice to see you around RJ.



[/hijack]