Military Gear

[SeaCat]

Watching the footage out of Gaza I have seen several pictures and videos of Artillery Shells detonating in the air with streamers of smoke heading downward. What kind of shells are these? Anyone out there know?

Cat

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Watching the footage out of Gaza I have seen several pictures and videos of Artillery Shells detonating in the air with streamers of smoke heading downward. What kind of shells are these? Anyone out there know?

Cat

I believe the nomenclature is VH but that may be dated (like me). If what you describe is what I think it is, they are airburst anti-personal weapons that riddle the tops of things (cars, soft armored vehicles, houses, etc) with high-velocity shrapnel. Not something you'd want to be on the receiving end of.

Alternately, they may be multiple warhead artillary rounds. Yeah, such things are both possible and made.

 

[rgraham666]

I'd have to see the pics to know for sure. They could be either VT (Variable Timer) or proximity fused rounds. The result is the same. By going off in the air they maximize the amount of shrapnel that hits the ground. This means digging a hole in the ground no longer protects you against artillery fire unless you've got some sort of over head cover.

Alternatively they could be cluster munitions of some sort. Fused the same way each shell scatters a couple of dozen hand grenade sized bomblets over an area. They might even be artillery delivered mines.

I won't say anything about the ethics of using weapons of such high lethality in a built up area like Gaza.

 

[cloudy]

I'd have to see the pics to know for sure. They could be either VT (Variable Timer) or proximity fused rounds. The result is the same. By going off in the air they maximize the amount of shrapnel that hits the ground. This means digging a hole in the ground no longer protects you against artillery fire unless you've got some sort of over head cover.

Alternatively they could be cluster munitions of some sort. Fused the same way each shell scatters a couple of dozen hand grenade sized bomblets over an area. They might even be artillery delivered mines.

I won't say anything about the ethics of using weapons of such high lethality in a built up area like Gaza.

Body count in the latest conflict as of today:

Palestinians: 810

Israelis: 13 (10 of those soldiers)

What was someone saying recently about Palestinians targeting civilians?

 

[R. Richard]

The shells you see in the air are white phosphorous. WP is hygrosciopic and it grabs moisture from the air so that it looks like smoke.

 

[SeaCat]

Here's a pic of one going off.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Israe...hotos_wl_afp/4dbc64325dc056bd85b345f7103e4845

It doesn't look like a W.P round to me and from what I have been hearing the Isrealis aren't using Cluster Munitions.

AS for who is right or wrong in this war, and a war it is, I won't get into my feelings on that.

Cat

 

[BrazenFellow]

That's White Phosphorous on a Variable Time or Time fuse. If you don't see any groundbursts or all the bursts look to be at about the same altitude, it's probably a Time fuse.

Other options include:
- White HHC Smoke (looks a lot like "willie pete")
- Airbursting Blast/Fragmentation (As mentioned)
- Improved Conventional Munitions (ICM)
- Dual-Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM)

Both ICM and DPICM scatter the equivalent of hand grenades around an area. The DPICM uses a small shaped charge explosive to top-attack enemy armour. Since HAMAS don't operate armour that would be in use for cracking through building rooftops.

I doubt it to be blast/frag because that's a lot of white trail coming down on the target zone and I doubt it to be DPICM or ICM for the same reason: We'd see the blasts on the ground afterwards as well, that shit doesn't linger.

It's not FASCAM or a related artillery-deployed mine system.

The IDF is likely using WP or HHC Smoke (irritates the lungs and eyes if you're exposed for any length of time) to drive fighters out into the open where they can be engaged with small arms or other weapons that have less of an area-effect than artillery, thus reducing civilian casualties. Just so we're clear, there are very few Palestinians who wouldn't torture an Israeli to death on live TV, so the restraint shown by the IDF in this conflict is nothing less than remarkable. I assure you, civilian casualties could be far higher, and HAMAS is to blame for those: If they chose not to shield themselves with civilians, the civilian casualty rate would be even lower. As HAMAS do not wear uniforms and have in the past and are likely now employing female and child combatants, it is likely that many civilian casualties are in fact enemy combatants.

 

[rgraham666]

Here's a pic of one going off.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Israe...hotos_wl_afp/4dbc64325dc056bd85b345f7103e4845

It doesn't look like a W.P round to me and from what I have been hearing the Isrealis aren't using Cluster Munitions.

AS for who is right or wrong in this war, and a war it is, I won't get into my feelings on that.

Cat

Ah. Those look more like free flight rockets than artillery, Cat. I'm sure there's a helicopter in that cloud in the left hand corner.

Cloudy? My understanding is that seven of those ten Israeli deaths are by friendly fire.

My feelings on this matter? A plague on both their houses. Neither side gives a shit who gets hurt as long as they win.

 

[Techomancer]

If those are Anti Personnel rounds... That's really high for an urban/civilian area. Like you're trying to take out a city block without any real regard for collateral damage.

CBU don't typically leave smoke streamers and WP rounds I'd expect to see more fires in the area.

Shelling a civilian population to get at a few terrorists is like opening up with machine gun on the front if a bus to get at a guy in the back.

 

[BrazenFellow]

RGraham: I guarantee you those aren't folding fin aerial rockets. The smoke trails would be denser together, there wouldn't be as many, and they'd be far darker.

Technomancer: Look at the local construction, it's not very flammable. In the image that was linked to earlier, most of the WP hadn't splashed down yet.

 

[Weird Harold]

Here's a pic of one going off.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Israe...hotos_wl_afp/4dbc64325dc056bd85b345f7103e4845

It doesn't look like a W.P round to me and from what I have been hearing the Isrealis aren't using Cluster Munitions.

Image nUmber four in that gallery? (see attachment)

If that's the image you're talking about, it is actually two different rounds delivered to almost exactly the same detonation point. It is a cluster munition of some sort; the smoke trails are the wrong color and too straight for WP, IMHO. ( The airburst WP I've seen leave spiral smoke trails similar tot he trails fro the first round that are starting to disipate in the wind on the left side of the image; WP smoketrails start out as sprials rather than the straight trails on th eright side of the image.)

 

[Techomancer]

RGraham: I guarantee you those aren't folding fin aerial rockets. The smoke trails would be denser together, there wouldn't be as many, and they'd be far darker.

Technomancer: Look at the local construction, it's not very flammable. In the image that was linked to earlier, most of the WP hadn't splashed down yet.

Sorry, should have been more clear. I've been watching this for more than today and more than this source. You are correct in that the buildings are concrete/stone but there is still combustible material in the area - and we aren't seeing the secondary fires that come from WP. And as well, if the Palestinians got a hold of one scrap of evidence of Israel using WP, Al-jazera or someone would be reporting it as a treaty violation. So far - nothing.

I could be wrong, but I still say it looks like a normal AP round.

 

[JackLuis]

In watching video of these rounds they look like marking rounds or multipal munitions of some sort. It puzzled me too.

I'v never seen the surface effects close enough to determine if they are explosive or Smoke/Gas in thier teminal phase, and I sure as hell am not going to "get up close to see" what is happening.

Both sides are flaming fools for allowing themselves to believe that crap that is spread around. It is the disparing vs the Desparate with artillary.

Seven thousand years of politican evolution and they still don't realize that every man drinks from the same wells.

Both sides quote the LAW! and then resort to force of arms in thier fear of the other. Parinoid.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Ah! At last some clarification. Check out the Photos of the Year thread. What those are is tear gas canister rounds. Nasty stuff but at least non-lethal . . . to most people.

 

[Techomancer]

Ah! At last some clarification. Check out the Photos of the Year thread. What those are is tear gas canister rounds. Nasty stuff but at least non-lethal . . . to most people.

Ah! Thanks for the clarification voluptuary_manque. Tear gas in an artillery shell is not really a close support item and they don't have troops in that far - what are they up to, just tormenting the civilians I guess.

Really classy IDF.

 

[Weird Harold]

Ah! Thanks for the clarification voluptuary_manque. Tear gas in an artillery shell is not really a close support item and they don't have troops in that far - what are they up to, just tormenting the civilians I guess.

Really classy IDF.

Perhaps driving the "civilians" away so they aren't killed when the follow-up barrage of high-explosives demolishes the buildings?

I'm not sure that VM is correct, though. Of course he didn't provide a reference to the image that gave him the idea so I'm still waiting for the 120 high-resolution images to download over my dial up connection to try and figure out what he's talking about. (It's only been a bit over an hour so far.)

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Perhaps driving the "civilians" away so they aren't killed when the follow-up barrage of high-explosives demolishes the buildings?

I'm not sure that VM is correct, though. Of course he didn't provide a reference to the image that gave him the idea so I'm still waiting for the 120 high-resolution images to download over my dial up connection to try and figure out what he's talking about. (It's only been a bit over an hour so far.)

Sorry, here 'tis.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/CSairburst.jpg

 

[Weird Harold]

Sorry, here 'tis.

http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii177/1volupturary_manque/CSairburst.jpg

That's not an airburst munition. If you look at the center of the image about halfway down the communications tower, you can see another teargas canister coming down and off to the right, another canister a bit earlier in it's trajectory.

The smoke trails in your image are each separate rounds from a relative of the 40MM grenade launcher in attachment 1,

The rounds that Seacat asked about probably came from an artillery piece like attachment 2 (although it might be from something bigger than 105MM)

 

[Techomancer]

That's not an airburst munition. If you look at the center of the image about halfway down the communications tower, you can see another teargas canister coming down and off to the right, another canister a bit earlier in it's trajectory.

The smoke trails in your image are each separate rounds from a relative of the 40MM grenade launcher in attachment 1,

The rounds that Seacat asked about probably came from an artillery piece like attachment 2 (although it might be from something bigger than 105MM)

Could also have been fired from APCs or tanks. They normally have smoke launchers mounted on the turret. While I'm thinking about that last photo - doesn't TG normally look more blueish?

 

[BrazenFellow]

No, it's not AFV deployed. Tank, IFV, and APC smoke dischargers don't fling their rounds that high or that far: That would defeat the purpose of those dischargers, self protection. Some Israeli tanks - the Merkava series - have a 60mm mortar, but those rounds have too much capacity to be 60mm barring meteorological munition scatter conditions I'm not aware of, it's not like the IDF fills me in on fire mission assessment reports.

Good call on the tear gas. It could be CS teargas or CN teargas; the stuff the police use is typically CS and that does have a bluish tint at times. The military uses CN. It's more potent and looks a lot like HHC white smoke, which in and of itself looks a lot like white phosphorous. I for one was totally unaware that the IDF had CN shells (Probably in 105 and 155, maybe some mortar rounds) but it makes perfect sense that they do, given their operational conditions.

 

[Weird Harold]

While I'm thinking about that last photo - doesn't TG normally look more blueish?

The picture VM referenced is definitely tear gas and probably from 40MM grenade launchers or specialized tear gas launchers.

In context with the caption, it can be found at http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/the_year_2008_in_photographs_p.html#photo22 the caption reads:

Tear gas cannisters fired by Israeli soldiers fall from the sky on Palestinian and Israeli peace activists during a protest agaisnt the construction of Israel's controversial security barrier in the West Bank village of Bilin, near Ramallah, on June 6, 2008. (Abbas Momani/AFP/Getty Images)

It is clearly not Tear gas from the artillery round seacat linked earlier: http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Israe...hotos_wl_afp/4dbc64325dc056bd85b345f7103e4845

 

[Techomancer]

Bah, these might not be WP rounds but it looks like casualties are starting to show up with the classic signs.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=99229413

These look similar to the picture here

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/smoke.htm



The three types of smoke projectiles areas follows:

(1) Hexachloroethane. Hexachloroethane (HC) smoke (smk) projectiles are available for 105-mm and 155-mm howitzers. They are used for screening, obscuration, spotting, and signaling purposes. The projectile has no casualty-producing effects. This base-ejection projectile is ballistically simailar to the HE projectile. It is fitted with a mechanical time fuze M565 or M577. The round expels smoke canisters that emit smoke for a period of 40 to 90 seconds.

(2) Burster-type white phosphorus. White phosphorus projectiles are available for 105-mm and 155-mm howitzers. They are bursting-tube type projectiles that can be fired with point-detonating (PD) or MTSQ fuzes. The projectile has an incendiary-producing effect and is ballistically similar to the HE projectile. Normally, shell WP is employed for its incendiary effect. The projectile also can be used for screening, spotting, and signaling purposes.

(3) M825 white phosphorus. The M825 WP projectile is an FA-delivered 155-mm base-ejection projectile designed to produce a smoke screen on the ground for a duration of 5 to 15 minutes. It consists of two major components--the projectile carrier and the payload. The projectile carrier delivers the payload to the target. The payload consists of 116 WP-saturated felt wedges. The smoke screen is produced when a predetermined fuze action causes ejection of the payload from the projectile. After ejection, the WP-saturated felt wedges in the payload fall to the ground in an elliptical pattern. Each wedge then becomes a point or source of smoke. The M825 is ballistically similar to the M483A1 (DPICM) family of projectiles.