Caroline Kennedy

You are correct in the sense of degenerates— but degenerates and their offspring don't last long. For your consideration—

The Calamity of Appomattox
By H.L. Mencken

"No American historian, so far as I know, has ever tried to work out the probable consequences if Grant instead of Lee had been on the hot spot at Appomattox. How long would the victorious Confederacy have endured? Could it have surmounted the difficulties inherent in the doctrine of States’ Rights, so often inconvenient and even paralyzing to it during the war? Could it have remedied its plain economic deficiencies, and become a self-sustaining nation? How would it have protected itself against such war heroes as Beauregard and Longstreet, Joe Wheeler and Nathan D. Forrest? And what would have been its relations to the United States, socially, economically, spiritually and politically?

I am inclined, on all these counts, to be optimistic. The chief evils in the Federal victory lay in the fact, from which we still suffer abominably, that it was a victory of what we now call Babbitts over what used to be called gentlemen. I am not arguing here, of course, that the whole Confederate army was composed of gentlemen; on the contrary, it was chiefly made up, like the Federal army, of innocent and unwashed peasants, and not a few of them got into its corps of officers. But the impulse behind it, as everyone knows, was essentially aristocratic, and that aristocratic impulse would have fashioned the Confederacy if the fortunes of war had run the other way. Whatever the defects of the new commonwealth below the Potomac, it would have at least been a commonwealth founded upon a concept of human inequality, and with a superior minority at the helm. It might not have produced any more Washingtons, Madisons, Jeffersons, Calhouns and Randolphs of Roanoke, but it would certainly not have yielded itself to the Heflins, Caraways, Bilbos and Tillmans.

The rise of such bounders was a natural and inevitable consequence of the military disaster. That disaster left the Southern gentry deflated and almost helpless. Thousands of the best young men among them had been killed, and thousands of those who survived came North. They commonly did well in the North, and were good citizens. My own native town of Baltimore was greatly enriched by their immigration, both culturally and materially; if it is less corrupt today than most other large American cities, then the credit belongs largely to Virginians, many of whom arrived with no baggage save good manners and empty bellies. Back home they were sorely missed. First the carpetbaggers ravaged the land, and then it fell into the hands of the native white trash, already so poor that war and Reconstruction could not make them any poorer. When things began to improve they seized whatever was seizable, and their heirs and assigns, now poor no longer, hold it to this day. A raw plutocracy owns and operates the New South, with no challenge save from a proletariat, white and black, that is still three-fourths peasant, and hence too stupid to be dangerous. The aristocracy is almost extinct, at least as a force in government. It may survive in backwaters and on puerile levels, but of the men who run the South today, and represent it at Washington, not 5%, by any Southern standard, are gentlemen.

If the war had gone with the Confederates no such vermin would be in the saddle, nor would there be any sign below the Potomac of their chief contributions to American Kultur—Ku Kluxry, political ecclesiasticism, nigger-baiting, and the more homicidal variety of wowserism. Such things might have arisen in America, but they would not have arisen in the South. The old aristocracy, however degenerate it might have become, would have at least retained sufficient decency to see to that. New Orleans, today, would still be a highly charming and civilized (if perhaps somewhat zymotic) city, with a touch of Paris and another of Port Said. Charleston, which even now sprouts lady authors, would also sprout political philosophers. The University of Virginia would be what Jefferson intended it to be, and no shouting Methodist would haunt its campus. Richmond would be, not the dull suburb of nothing that it is now, but a beautiful and consoling second-rate capital, comparable to Budapest, Brussels, Stockholm or The Hague. And all of us, with the Middle West pumping its revolting silo juices into the East and West alike, would be making frequent leaps over the Potomac, to drink the sound red wine there and breathe the free air.

My guess is that the two Republics would be getting on pretty amicably. Perhaps they’d have come to terms as early as 1898, and fought the Spanish-American War together. In 1917 the confiding North might have gone out to save the world for democracy, but the South, vaccinated against both Wall Street and the Liberal whim-wham, would have kept aloof—and maybe rolled up a couple of billions of profit from the holy crusade. It would probably be far richer today, independent, than it is with the clutch of the Yankee mortgage-shark still on its collar. It would be getting and using his money just the same, but his toll would be less. As things stand, he not only exploits the South economically; he also pollutes and debases it spiritually. It suffers damnably from low wages, but it suffers even more from the Chamber of Commerce metaphysic.

No doubt the Confederates, victorious, would have abolished slavery by the middle of the 80s. They were headed that way before the war, and the more sagacious of them were all in favor of it. But they were in favor of it on sound economic grounds, and not on the brummagem moral grounds which persuaded the North. The difference here is immense. In human history a moral victory is always a disaster, for it debauches and degrades both the victor and the vanquished. The triumph of sin in 1865 would have stimulated and helped to civilize both sides.

Today the way out looks painful and hazardous. Civilization in the United States survives only in the big cities, and many of them—notably Boston and Philadelphia—seem to be sliding down to the cow country level. No doubt this standardization will go on until a few of the more resolute towns, headed by New York, take to open revolt, and try to break out of the Union. Already, indeed, it is talked of. But it will be hard to accomplish, for the tradition that the Union is indissoluble is now firmly established. If it had been broken in 1865, life would be far pleasanter today for every American of any noticeable decency. There are, to be sure, advantages in Union for everyone, but it must be manifest that they are greatest for the worst kinds of people. All the benefit that a New Yorker gets out of Kansas is no more than what he might get out of Saskatchewan, the Argentine pampas, or Siberia. But New York to a Kansan is not only a place where he may get drunk, look at dirty shows and buy bogus antiques; it is also a place where he may enforce his dunghill ideas upon his betters."

Published in The American Mercury, Sept., 1930, (The Vintage Mencken, Gathered by Alistair Cooke, Vintage Books, 1955, pp.197-201)

Well, what would you expect from a man who honestly, in his private diaries, hoped that Germany would win WWII?
 
In 1962, when George Cabot Lodge (35) and Ted Kennedy (30), neither of whom had any elected political experience, ran against each other for the open MA Senate seat, Lodge ran an ad which approximately stated: "If his name was Edward Moore instead of Edward Kennedy, his candidacy would be a joke. Well his name IS Edward Moore. He's Edward Moore Kennedy and his candidacy IS a joke."

Kennedy won due to the powerful Kennedy political organization and of course the popularity of the Kennedy name, although the Lodges were also well known and respected. The same is likely to happen with Caroline.

I would much prefer Mario Cuomo but Caroline will have all the Kennedys working for her appointment and they will be hard to beat. I doubt that Mario has much of a chance.
 
In 1962, when George Cabot Lodge (35) and Ted Kennedy (30), neither of whom had any elected political experience, ran against each other for the open MA Senate seat, Lodge ran an ad which approximately stated: "If his name was Edward Moore instead of Edward Kennedy, his candidacy would be a joke. Well his name IS Edward Moore. He's Edward Moore Kennedy and his candidacy IS a joke."

Kennedy won due to the powerful Kennedy political organization and of course the popularity of the Kennedy name, although the Lodges were also well known and respected. The same is likely to happen with Caroline.

I would much prefer Mario Cuomo but Caroline will have all the Kennedys working for her appointment and they will be hard to beat. I doubt that Mario has much of a chance.

There was a time in the Democratic Party when the very mention of the name Kennedy was enough to bring tears to the eyes of the faithful. A more measured view of the family over the last couple of decades has dispelled the glow considerably in most of the country. In the Northeast, though, it may still linger. At least she won't have to worry about any stories linking her to sexual scandel or homicide . . . I hope.
 
In 1962, when George Cabot Lodge (35) and Ted Kennedy (30), neither of whom had any elected political experience, ran against each other for the open MA Senate seat, Lodge ran an ad which approximately stated: "If his name was Edward Moore instead of Edward Kennedy, his candidacy would be a joke. Well his name IS Edward Moore. He's Edward Moore Kennedy and his candidacy IS a joke."

Kennedy won due to the powerful Kennedy political organization and of course the popularity of the Kennedy name, although the Lodges were also well known and respected. The same is likely to happen with Caroline.

I would much prefer Mario Cuomo but Caroline will have all the Kennedys working for her appointment and they will be hard to beat. I doubt that Mario has much of a chance.

This is not an election, you know. This is an effort to convince ONE person, the governor of NY. He may have already made up his mind, and be just milking the situation for his own benefit.
 
In 1962, when George Cabot Lodge (35) and Ted Kennedy (30), neither of whom had any elected political experience, ran against each other for the open MA Senate seat, Lodge ran an ad which approximately stated: "If his name was Edward Moore instead of Edward Kennedy, his candidacy would be a joke. Well his name IS Edward Moore. He's Edward Moore Kennedy and his candidacy IS a joke."

Kennedy won due to the powerful Kennedy political organization and of course the popularity of the Kennedy name, although the Lodges were also well known and respected. The same is likely to happen with Caroline.

I would much prefer Mario Cuomo but Caroline will have all the Kennedys working for her appointment and they will be hard to beat. I doubt that Mario has much of a chance.

This is not an election, you know. This is an effort to convince ONE person, the governor of NY. He may have already made up his mind, and be just milking the situation for his own benefit.

Box, you often reply to my posts and I appreciate it and your opinions, but I often wonder if you read what I have written.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Teach
In 1962, when George Cabot Lodge (35) and Ted Kennedy (30), neither of whom had any elected political experience, ran against each other for the open MA Senate seat, Lodge ran an ad which approximately stated: "If his name was Edward Moore instead of Edward Kennedy, his candidacy would be a joke. Well his name IS Edward Moore. He's Edward Moore Kennedy and his candidacy IS a joke."

Kennedy won due to the powerful Kennedy political organization and of course the popularity of the Kennedy name, although the Lodges were also well known and respected. The same is likely to happen with Caroline.

I would much prefer Mario Cuomo but Caroline will have all the Kennedys working for her appointment and they will be hard to beat. I doubt that Mario has much of a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
This is not an election, you know. This is an effort to convince ONE person, the governor of NY. He may have already made up his mind, and be just milking the situation for his own benefit.


Box, you often reply to my posts and I appreciate it and your opinions, but I often wonder if you read what I have written.

Of course I read your post. Did you? :confused: If I didn't know better, I would think you were writing about an election, with CK competing with MC., and that the Kennedy clan was campaigning for their member.

Most of your post was about another Kennedy winning an election over a scion of another politically prominent family.
 
I didn't defend Sarah Palin, but I did say she has paid her dues and was more qualified to be in the Senate than Caroline Kennedy. Generally speaking, on this forum, we do not hold a person's religious views against him or her. Why is Sarah Palin an exception? :confused:

Box - I was talking about the big picture, going back to your support of SP before the election.

On religion, we have discussed the problem of religious views dictating public policy. When religious ideologues make decisions based on their interpretation of the Bible rather than the facts at hand, we end up with things like world wars, not to mention the censorships of science and the destruction of natural resources. Back when James Watt's was Interior Secretary, his view was that because the apocalypse was coming, we should just go ahead and deplete all our natural resources, since we wouldn't be needing them in heaven.

I will admit that SP has more experience than CK, but I don't believe experience alone is a qualification for public office. For you to claim that CK is not qualified for the senate is as valid as me claiming that SP isn't qualified for the same office, so let's just call it a draw, okay?

Granted, if I made all my decisions based on the Bible, I'd be more sympathetic to SP's brand of ignorance, but I don't. I prefer to include reality in the deliberations.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Teach
In 1962, when George Cabot Lodge (35) and Ted Kennedy (30), neither of whom had any elected political experience, ran against each other for the open MA Senate seat, Lodge ran an ad which approximately stated: "If his name was Edward Moore instead of Edward Kennedy, his candidacy would be a joke. Well his name IS Edward Moore. He's Edward Moore Kennedy and his candidacy IS a joke."

Kennedy won due to the powerful Kennedy political organization and of course the popularity of the Kennedy name, although the Lodges were also well known and respected. The same is likely to happen with Caroline.

I would much prefer Mario Cuomo but Caroline will have all the Kennedys working for her appointment and they will be hard to beat. I doubt that Mario has much of a chance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
This is not an election, you know. This is an effort to convince ONE person, the governor of NY. He may have already made up his mind, and be just milking the situation for his own benefit.




Of course I read your post. Did you? :confused: If I didn't know better, I would think you were writing about an election, with CK competing with MC., and that the Kennedy clan was campaigning for their member.

Most of your post was about another Kennedy winning an election over a scion of another politically prominent family.

Ted won an election due to the Kennedy machine and Kennedy name. I pointed that out to ILLUSTRATE the Kennedy power and then STATED that Caroline is likely to win an APPOINTMENT for the same reasons.

It was very clear. All you had to do was read instead of assume.
 
Box - I was talking about the big picture, going back to your support of SP before the election.

On religion, we have discussed the problem of religious views dictating public policy. When religious ideologues make decisions based on their interpretation of the Bible rather than the facts at hand, we end up with things like world wars, not to mention the censorships of science and the destruction of natural resources. Back when James Watt's was Interior Secretary, his view was that because the apocalypse was coming, we should just go ahead and deplete all our natural resources, since we wouldn't be needing them in heaven.

I will admit that SP has more experience than CK, but I don't believe experience alone is a qualification for public office. For you to claim that CK is not qualified for the senate is as valid as me claiming that SP isn't qualified for the same office, so let's just call it a draw, okay?

Granted, if I made all my decisions based on the Bible, I'd be more sympathetic to SP's brand of ignorance, but I don't. I prefer to include reality in the deliberations.

Can you cite one decision that Sarah Palin made, as mayor or governor, based on her religious beliefs.
 
Well, what would you expect from a man who honestly, in his private diaries, hoped that Germany would win WWII?

Today's assignment:

Read Nicholson Baker's Human Smoke and William Stevenson's A Man Called Intrepid seriatim. One, but not both, provides an accurate depiction of events. Which do you find to be the more compelling account?


 
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Can you cite one decision that Sarah Palin made, as mayor or governor, based on her religious beliefs.

Well, let's see - her attempt to pull books from the library? As we well know, her attempt was thwarted by local outrage. Yes, I know you're going to claim she never did pull the books, but the fact that she wanted to is what we're talking about.

Her intention to mandate the teaching of creationism in public schools.

Her belief in abstinence only sex education. (We all know how well that turned out.)

Although she was never successful in instigating any of these backwards policies, her intention is what is worrisome. Her intentions would inform her Supreme Court justice nominations, as they would her policy decisions if she were to become president. All you have to do is look at Bush's crazy-ass conservative policy directives to see a bible-thumping conservative in action. The censorship of science in the EPA is one topic you could explore if you were so inclined.

This all loops back to my original point - that SP isn't qualified for public office because, among other things, her religious ideology prevents her from making decisions based on facts. If this concept is impossible for you to comprehend, I'm truly sorry I wasted your (and my) time trying to enlighten you.
 
Well, let's see - her attempt to pull books from the library? As we well know, her attempt was thwarted by local outrage. Yes, I know you're going to claim she never did pull the books, but the fact that she wanted to is what we're talking about.

Her intention to mandate the teaching of creationism in public schools.

Her belief in abstinence only sex education. (We all know how well that turned out.)

Although she was never successful in instigating any of these backwards policies, her intention is what is worrisome. Her intentions would inform her Supreme Court justice nominations, as they would her policy decisions if she were to become president. All you have to do is look at Bush's crazy-ass conservative policy directives to see a bible-thumping conservative in action. The censorship of science in the EPA is one topic you could explore if you were so inclined.

This all loops back to my original point - that SP isn't qualified for public office because, among other things, her religious ideology prevents her from making decisions based on facts. If this concept is impossible for you to comprehend, I'm truly sorry I wasted your (and my) time trying to enlighten you.

As you probably know, mayors and other city officials get letters or phone calls from "concerned citizens" about books they feel should not be in the public library. Some are right wing kooks complaining about "Catcher in the Rye" or other books that they feel promote a "libertine" life style, or other silly things. Others are from left wing kooks complaining about "Huckleberry Finn" or "Little Brave/Black Sambo" or other books that are not PC. This was covered extensively in a thread earlier, and what Palin did was to ask the librarian about policy regarding such matters. I don't recall that there was any attempt to remove any books. :confused:

When did she attempt to mandate abstinence only or the teaching of creationism in public schools? I'm not saying she didn't, but I do not recall hearing about it. I believe there are some states, Kansas? where Creationism is actually taught as an alternate theory to Darwin. Why don't you rail about that?:eek:

Her personal beliefs are her own business. If they adversely effect things she does, that is another matter, but so far I still don't know this has ever happened. If she actually tried to promote any backward ideas, that would be serious, but you have not described any yet. She is not W. :eek:

I remember quite well in 1960, hearing how the country was going to be turned over to the pope. Of course, that never happened. :confused:
 
As you probably know, mayors and other city officials get letters or phone calls from "concerned citizens" about books they feel should not be in the public library. Some are right wing kooks complaining about "Catcher in the Rye" or other books that they feel promote a "libertine" life style, or other silly things. Others are from left wing kooks complaining about "Huckleberry Finn" or "Little Brave/Black Sambo" or other books that are not PC. This was covered extensively in a thread earlier, and what Palin did was to ask the librarian about policy regarding such matters. I don't recall that there was any attempt to remove any books. :confused:

When did she attempt to mandate abstinence only or the teaching of creationism in public schools? I'm not saying she didn't, but I do not recall hearing about it. I believe there are some states, Kansas? where Creationism is actually taught as an alternate theory to Darwin. Why don't you rail about that?:eek:

Her personal beliefs are her own business. If they adversely effect things she does, that is another matter, but so far I still don't know this has ever happened. If she actually tried to promote any backward ideas, that would be serious, but you have not described any yet. She is not W. :eek:

I remember quite well in 1960, hearing how the country was going to be turned over to the pope. Of course, that never happened. :confused:


Somehow I don't think Sarah Palin would be as mealy mouthed or evasive about what she believes along these lines. I think she come right out and own up to being an ultraconservative religious fundamentalist. So, it's kind of funny watching you squirm on this point.
 
Somehow I don't think Sarah Palin would be as mealy mouthed or evasive about what she believes along these lines. I think she come right out and own up to being an ultraconservative religious fundamentalist. So, it's kind of funny watching you squirm on this point.

I don't know that much about her religious convictions, but I do remember many people on this forum saying that a person's religions are his or her own business. :eek:
 
I don't know that much about her religious convictions, but I do remember many people on this forum saying that a person's religions are his or her own business. :eek:


Owning a BB gun is a private matter too until someone gets an eye put out.
 
I don't know that much about her religious convictions, but I do remember many people on this forum saying that a person's religions are his or her own business. :eek:

Oh, don't be so stupid. Of course a political figure's religious activity (if not their actual beliefs if they want to keep them private--which means they can't spill over into public policy) is germane to their public service--and to the determination if a voter wants to support their candidacy. You give up such privacies as a public servant. Again, don't be so stupid.
 
Box - in theory you're right. A person's religious beliefs should be their own business. But when a person justifies their actions as a public servant by referencing their religious beliefs, they have just crossed the line.

As you may recall, one of Palin's quotes was that we were doing God's work in Iraq. Perhaps you should google it, C&P it here, and then put your own spin on it, since I'm sure she said it in such a way as to give herself some wiggle room. The fact remains, SP is a religious ideologue. It's the elephant in the room. If you can't see it, your basic comprehension of reality comes into question.
 
So she has money, so what. However, I do believe that if one wants to get into government that there must be a double standard. She must give up some rights and show where she is making her money. There is a report out, which she only worked a few hours a month in education. Why someone would want to get into politics bests me…most politicians are worse than ambulance chasers

Well, let's see - her attempt to pull books from the library? As we well know, her attempt was thwarted by local outrage. Yes, I know you're going to claim she never did pull the books, but the fact that she wanted to is what we're talking about.

Her intention to mandate the teaching of creationism in public schools.

Her belief in abstinence only sex education. (We all know how well that turned out.)

Although she was never successful in instigating any of these backwards policies, her intention is what is worrisome. Her intentions would inform her Supreme Court justice nominations, as they would her policy decisions if she were to become president. All you have to do is look at Bush's crazy-ass conservative policy directives to see a bible-thumping conservative in action. The censorship of science in the EPA is one topic you could explore if you were so inclined.

This all loops back to my original point - that SP isn't qualified for public office because, among other things, her religious ideology prevents her from making decisions based on facts. If this concept is impossible for you to comprehend, I'm truly sorry I wasted your (and my) time trying to enlighten you.
 
Box - in theory you're right. A person's religious beliefs should be their own business. But when a person justifies their actions as a public servant by referencing their religious beliefs, they have just crossed the line.

As you may recall, one of Palin's quotes was that we were doing God's work in Iraq. Perhaps you should google it, C&P it here, and then put your own spin on it, since I'm sure she said it in such a way as to give herself some wiggle room. The fact remains, SP is a religious ideologue. It's the elephant in the room. If you can't see it, your basic comprehension of reality comes into question.

If this was truly a formal statement by her, that would be one thing. However, an offhand remark is another. It's not at all unusual to hear or read some pol saying something like "...thank God, we..." Are we to hold such a remark against that person, and say he or she is a religious kook?

I will agree with you if you can reliably cite one instance where Sarah Palin, in her capacity as governor or mayor, made a serious attempt to take some religious dogma she holds and impose it on her constituents. I do not mean asking about policy; I mean sponsoring legislation or issuing executive orders. When I say "reliably cite" I don't mean quoting an opinion of one of her political rivals. This would have to be something reported in a reliable source and something that can be proven.
 
Getting this conversation back on the original subject, Caroline Kennedy not Sarah Palin, it would appear that some are applauding her succession to the Senate prematurely.
 
I know I'm cheerfully drunk, but I have to laugh, once again, at Box's assertions that he isn't biased.

Box, when quoted, your posts are really funny to read.

:D
 
I know I'm cheerfully drunk, but I have to laugh, once again, at Box's assertions that he isn't biased.

Box, when quoted, your posts are really funny to read.

:D

Of course I'm biased. Everybody is, to some extent. I am biased against lazy good-for-nothings living off the taxpayers. I am not biased against people who, through no fault of their own, need assistance. I am biased against hate-mongers of any race, religion, gender or sexual orientation. I am biased against those who try to impose their religious dogma on anybody else. I expect that, generally speaking, we agree on more things than we disagree on. :)

Sometimes people quote one of my posts and delete part of it, in effect quoting me out of context, making it seem as if I have said something I didn't. :mad: I am also biased against that.
 
Mario will be appointed. The Obama folks and the Dems owe the Kennedys the courtesy and respect of consideration.
 
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