(Yawn) So, vat else is new? (Kind of political)

[oggbashan]

I totally agree that hatred is the cause. However, a large part of that hatred is religion based. Except for religion, would there be any major difference between an Indian and a Pakistani?

India has the largest population of Muslims of any country in the world at 154 million (13.4%) of India's population.

India has both Muslim and Hindu terrorists. It doesn't need to look beyond its borders to find people prepared to kill in the name of religion.

However the lack of government in parts of Pakistan make fertile breeding places for terrorists claiming Islam as their cause.

As for nationality, there are various ethnic groups in both India and Pakistan. There are ethnic groups that are solely Indian; some that are solely Pakistani; and some that could be either.

I'm not sure how far it is possible for an outsider to distinguish between an Indian and a Pakistani except by asking them to produce their passports.

Og

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Grateful Fred will get no argument from me on how Israel's getting fucked over, but that situation has degenerated to such a position of hopelessness that you wonder if it can ever be salvaged.

Personally, I stay away from Israel-Arab politics. It's simply beyond me. I got involved in this thread because of the attempt to disengage Islam from the mix of what went on in Mumbai, which I think is dangerously naive and misguided.

I notice that whenever sexual conservatism and repression come up as topics here, we're very quick to link them to Christianity and Christian morals and condemn the latter two, but when Muslim terrorism comes up, we're just as quick to decouple it from Islam as if it's not related at all. That's just a clear double standard.

I suppose that's because an anti-Muslim prejudice is so much more common than an anti-Christian one that it seems more unfair, but that's not true. It's a pretty good analogy, I think: Christian morals are to sexual repression what Islamic theology is to jihad. They both supply the language of expression for underlying emotional forces that would exist without them, but which are much more powerfully expressed with them.

Now that we're putting someone in the White House who can see things as they are and not just in terms of Good Guys versus Bad Guys, let's hope there'll be some nuance and understanding to our foreign policy and less prejudice and oversimplification.

 

[GratefulFred]

Grateful Fred will get no argument from me on how Israel's getting fucked over, but that situation has degenerated to such a position of hopelessness that you wonder if it can ever be salvaged.

Personally, I stay away from Israel-Arab politics. It's simply beyond me. I got involved in this thread because of the attempt to disengage Islam from the mix of what went on in Mumbai, which I think is dangerously naive and misguided.

I notice that whenever sexual conservatism and repression come up as topics here, we're very quick to link them to Christianity and Christian morals and condemn the latter two, but when Muslim terrorism comes up, we're just as quick to decouple it from Islam as if it's not related at all. That's just a clear double standard.

I suppose that's because an anti-Muslim prejudice is so much more common than an anti-Christian one that it seems more unfair, but that's not true. It's a pretty good analogy, I think: Christian morals are to sexual repression what Islamic theology is to jihad. They both supply the language of expression for underlying emotional forces that would exist without them, but which are much more powerfully expressed with them.

Now that we're putting someone in the White House who can see things as they are and not just in terms of Good Guys versus Bad Guys, let's hope there'll be some nuance and understanding to our foreign policy and less prejudice and oversimplification.

I hope the US just concentrates on making itself more energy sufficient. That will solve our problems a lot more than shuttle diplomacy. Less revenue for the countries that support terrorism, including those Saudi donors, and improving the environment is the aid package the whole world needs. Will Obama do something to solve the US's problems or will he just talk? His clock starts in January.

 

[sr71plt]

Grateful Fred will get no argument from me on how Israel's getting fucked Personally, I stay away from Israel-Arab politics. It's simply beyond me. I got involved in this thread because of the attempt to disengage Islam from the mix of what went on in Mumbai, which I think is dangerously naive and misguided.

Sorry, but I think it would be equally simplistic to put a heavy thumb on Islam as the sole cause of the Mumbai events. Islam-Hindu issues--more in terms of ethnic and social differences than just religion--are part of the base. But this has moved on to long-term, festering geo-political issues between two nations. Increasingly the root of the attack is getting down to the Kashmir issue--which is so much more complex than just Islam militancy. (Which I said in an earlier posting I grant--and, in fact, have been having heavily documented to me while editing an 800-page review of the Islamic movement worldwide over that past six weeks.)

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Sorry, but I think it would be equally simplistic to put a heavy thumb on Islam as the sole cause of the Mumbai events. Islam-Hindu issues--more in terms of ethnic and social differences than just religion--are part of the base. But this has moved on to long-term, festering geo-political issues between two nations. Increasingly the root of the attack is getting down to the Kashmir issue--which is so much more complex than just Islam militancy. (Which I said in an earlier posting I grant--and, in fact, have been having heavily documented to me while editing an 800-page review of the Islamic movement worldwide over that past six weeks.)

Definitely. Islam isn't the cause at all. If one thing is clear in the history of all religions, it's that religion is what people make of it. Christianity (Or Islam, or Judaism, or probably any other religion) can be a force for humanizing good, or it can lead to the Inquisition and jihad. But to pretend there's no link between Islam and current anti-Western terrorism is naive.

Over simplification either pro or con is exactly what I'm arguing against. If I were a Muslim, I'd be doing everything i could to be building bridges to the west to try and offset the image these extremists were giving my religion. I don't see that happening much, and that's too bad.

 

[sr71plt]

Over simplification either pro or con is exactly what I'm arguing against. If I were a Muslim, I'd be doing everything i could to be building bridges to the west to try and offset the image these extremists were giving my religion. I don't see that happening much, and that's too bad.

Islam has seen that as a pretty useless exercise back to Ishmael--with pretty good historical backing for believing that. Definitely should go on the "if only" list, though.

 

[freshface]

Definitely. Islam isn't the cause at all. If one thing is clear in the history of all religions, it's that religion is what people make of it. Christianity (Or Islam, or Judaism, or probably any other religion) can be a force for humanizing good, or it can lead to the Inquisition and jihad. But to pretend there's no link between Islam and current anti-Western terrorism is naive.

Over simplification either pro or con is exactly what I'm arguing against. If I were a Muslim, I'd be doing everything i could to be building bridges to the west to try and offset the image these extremists were giving my religion. I don't see that happening much, and that's too bad.

I think the bridges will come as Muslims integrate into American society. I already see it happening at work, with moderate Muslims who observe Ramadan and are appalled at terrorists who use Islam as an excuse for terrorism.

But there are too many powerful people in too many Muslim nations who benefit from demonizing the West. It keeps them from being responsible for the problems in those societies.

 

[GratefulFred]

I think the bridges will come as Muslims integrate into American society. I already see it happening at work, with moderate Muslims who observe Ramadan and are appalled at terrorists who use Islam as an excuse for terrorism.

But there are too many powerful people in too many Muslim nations who benefit from demonizing the West. It keeps them from being responsible for the problems in those societies.

Take a look at how the muslims are in Europe. Weather it was out of guilt or for whatever reasons European countries opened their flood gates letting in tons of muslim immigrants who now have barracked themselves into ghettos just outside the tourist centers in paris and are causing major problems not only their but in places like the netherlands. There are millions live off welfare having babies after babies and not wishing to adapt to a European lifestyle. Europe is fighting for it's very identity.

The muslims in America are a much smaller minority fortunately and can't pull their welfare stunts as they do in Europe. Being poor isn't the way to go in a non-socialized country like America and the capitalistic system turns them into better productive citizens chasing the big bucks or if they can't they usually make their way back to their home country.

 

[sr71plt]

The muslims in America are a much smaller minority fortunately and can't pull their welfare stunts as they do in Europe. Being poor isn't the way to go in a non-socialized country like America and the capitalistic system turns them into better productive citizens chasing the big bucks or if they can't they usually make their way back to their home country.

An aside from the book I'm editing--just because I found it very interesting. Muslims in the States apparently make a good deal more money than the average American--and have a higher education level than the average.

 

[gauchecritic]

But there are too many powerful people in too many Muslim nations who benefit from demonizing the West. It keeps them from being responsible for the problems in those societies.

Speaking of simplistic (not yours but mine in this next) In my apologist post (above) I was trying to convey, and failed miserably by attempting to not sound anti-american, that:

1. In the general perception Muslim countries are third world (however well off the rulers are)

2. Western social and consumerist 'propaganda' deepens the chasm of third world v. The West.

3. Billions of dollars would do little to alleviate the conditions of third world populations.

So taking these as (simplistic) basics, religion is an easy hook for those 'thinkers' of third world nations to rage against the unequality obviously apparent between the two.

Call me a 'usual suspect' a pinko, anti establishment or anything you like but it seems to me that what we are witnessing here (quite apart from a failure to communicate) is the on-going and ever present class struggle.

Far from keeping the powers that be responsible for the problems of those societies, when viewed in this light, they are actually reacting to external threats to their lifestyles. Economic threats. Societal threats. Moral threats.

 

[Boxlicker101]

India has the largest population of Muslims of any country in the world at 154 million (13.4%) of India's population.

India has both Muslim and Hindu terrorists. It doesn't need to look beyond its borders to find people prepared to kill in the name of religion.

However the lack of government in parts of Pakistan make fertile breeding places for terrorists claiming Islam as their cause.

As for nationality, there are various ethnic groups in both India and Pakistan. There are ethnic groups that are solely Indian; some that are solely Pakistani; and some that could be either.

I'm not sure how far it is possible for an outsider to distinguish between an Indian and a Pakistani except by asking them to produce their passports.

Og

Just to be picky, I think that Indonesia has more Muslims than India.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/id.html

 

[sr71plt]

India is third. (Although that's an amazing concept to consider anyway.)

Pakistan has 161 million and India has 142 million (CIA World Factbook).

What seems missing here, however, is that not all Muslims are the same (here, in reference to propensity to engage in terrorism) any more than Catholics and Baptists are the same within the Christian church. In willingness to take up violence, you are really talking about the fringe groups.

 

[Boxlicker101]

India is third. (Although that's an amazing concept to consider anyway.)

Pakistan has 161 million and India has 142 million (CIA World Factbook).

What seems missing here, however, is that not all Muslims are the same (here, in reference to propensity to engage in terrorism) any more than Catholics and Baptists are the same within the Christian church. In willingness to take up violence, you are really talking about the fringe groups.

Absolutely. I don't think anybody would dispute that. Certainly I wouldn't. However, to say what I said before using different words: I believe the lunatic fringe of Islam is wider that the lunatic fringe of any other large group of people, in terms of religious denominations, nationalities and ethnic groups.

 

[GratefulFred]

An aside from the book I'm editing--just because I found it very interesting. Muslims in the States apparently make a good deal more money than the average American--and have a higher education level than the average.

Most US immigrants feel the US tax system is fair and appreciate the opportunity to succeed in what America has to offer. So long as the US immigration policy only allows those from hostile undemocatic countries with college education, no criminal records or hostile association and a guaranteed means to support their family to come to the US, the US should be fine.

You should find it disturbing when a group of young Arab students come on a student visa for some made up camp or school and just vanish off the grid. Things like that happen.

For example, take the OB/GYN with twenty years experience from Lebannon over the nineteen year old no profession Palestinian kid from Gaza and only consider someone who passes certain criteria. Keep America statistically safe and give the privledge for those who will not be a burden on society. If discriminating in immigration policy is too hard to maintain, just don't take any immigrants.

 

[sr71plt]

You should find it disturbing when a group of young Arab students come on a student visa for some made up camp or school and just vanish off the grid. Things like that happen.

Disturbing, yes. A surprise, absolutely not. That was a key element of government analysis I was doing--long before 9/11.

Equally disturbing is all of the Chinese students who come to the states apparently well heeled--but given scholarships here to slurp up everything they can absorb on hard sciences and then trot right back to China to (you know what).

 

[freshface]

Speaking of simplistic (not yours but mine in this next) In my apologist post (above) I was trying to convey, and failed miserably by attempting to not sound anti-american, that:

1. In the general perception Muslim countries are third world (however well off the rulers are)

2. Western social and consumerist 'propaganda' deepens the chasm of third world v. The West.

3. Billions of dollars would do little to alleviate the conditions of third world populations.

So taking these as (simplistic) basics, religion is an easy hook for those 'thinkers' of third world nations to rage against the unequality obviously apparent between the two.

Call me a 'usual suspect' a pinko, anti establishment or anything you like but it seems to me that what we are witnessing here (quite apart from a failure to communicate) is the on-going and ever present class struggle.

Far from keeping the powers that be responsible for the problems of those societies, when viewed in this light, they are actually reacting to external threats to their lifestyles. Economic threats. Societal threats. Moral threats.

Actually, I tend to agree with you on all three points. Religion is an easy hook and the West is an easy target. The rage is real. If aimed at the powers that be, this rage becomes a threat. Aimed at us, the rage becomes an asset. "It's not our fault that you're poor and have no future, it's the evil Zionists and their Western lackeys. They're the ones keeping you down." As long as the populace believes that, the powers that be can stay in power. After all, the intellectuals are not usually the powers that be or the masses that believe what they're told. Those intellectuals that start redirecting that rage from the West to the leadership are quickly suppressed. From what I've seen, the more prosperous Middle Easterners are more cynical. Devout at home and hedonistic in Europe.

I also think there's been a compact between the some of the religious leadership and the political leadership, especially in Saudi Arabia. The Wahabies get to control the religion and the ibn Saud family gets to stay in power. The Saudis fund very conservative Madrassahs all over the Islamic world. No idea if it is genuine belief or a way to keep the mullahs happy, but either way they tend to make Islam more radical, especially when they are the only source of education.

 

[DesertPirate]

I suppose that's because an anti-Muslim prejudice is so much more common than an anti-Christian one that it seems more unfair, but that's not true. It's a pretty good analogy, I think: Christian morals are to sexual repression what Islamic theology is to jihad. They both supply the language of expression for underlying emotional forces that would exist without them, but which are much more powerfully expressed with them.

Sorry Zoot, but Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world, and has been for over 100 years.

The downside of this whole situation is when India and Pakistan start lobbing nukes at each other. It really could happen.

The upside is that some Muslim leaders really do "get it" The senior ones in India have forbidden the terrorists killed there from being buried in Muslim cemetaries. They also won't allow any buriel in the clothing they died in like would happen to a martyr, they will be wrapped in linen like anyone else since they are murderers.

 

[freshface]

Sorry Zoot, but Christianity is the most persecuted religion in the world, and has been for over 100 years.

The downside of this whole situation is when India and Pakistan start lobbing nukes at each other. It really could happen.

The upside is that some Muslim leaders really do "get it" The senior ones in India have forbidden the terrorists killed there from being buried in Muslim cemetaries. They also won't allow any buriel in the clothing they died in like would happen to a martyr, they will be wrapped in linen like anyone else since they are murderers.

I don't know. I think the Jews have a pretty strong claim for most persecuted in the last hundred years. No one else can claim six million dead because of religion.

In current times, worldwide, I have to agree with Zoot. You don't see lots of innocent Christians being locked up for being Christian. Talk to Muslims in the US and you don't get the sense that they feel fully welcomed into US society, even the ones who were born there. Talk to the ones in Europe, and they don't feel welcome at all, even the ones who have been here for generations.

But good for the Muslim leadership in India for disavowing the work of the radicals.

 

[DesertPirate]

I don't know. I think the Jews have a pretty strong claim for most persecuted in the last hundred years. No one else can claim six million dead because of religion.

In current times, worldwide, I have to agree with Zoot. You don't see lots of innocent Christians being locked up for being Christian. Talk to Muslims in the US and you don't get the sense that they feel fully welcomed into US society, even the ones who were born there. Talk to the ones in Europe, and they don't feel welcome at all, even the ones who have been here for generations.

But good for the Muslim leadership in India for disavowing the work of the radicals.

The problem in Europe is that too many of the young have been allowed in and there are radicals preaching in the Mosques. There are vast cells of terrorist wannabes all over France and other parts of Europe.
Don't bet on your numbers, who knows how many Christians have been killed in China, or Buddists for that matter. A Communist regime can not allow religion because you have to worship the party or it won't work.

 

[gauchecritic]

A Communist regime can not allow religion because you have to worship the party or it won't work.

Is that a very specific kind of communism? It's a new one to me.

 

[Liar]

Don't bet on your numbers, who knows how many Christians have been killed in China, or Buddists for that matter.

You don't have to be a commie to kill christians in China. Google the Taiping Rebellion.

It was way back in the 1850's, but then as now, it was not really about religions, but about the power they have over people.

 

[DesertPirate]

The Chinese will not tolerate anything that involves loyalty to anything beside the Govt.
That is also a Communist doctrine. At least as practiced in the Soviet Union.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Most US immigrants feel the US tax system is fair and appreciate the opportunity to succeed in what America has to offer. So long as the US immigration policy only allows those from hostile undemocatic countries with college education, no criminal records or hostile association and a guaranteed means to support their family to come to the US, the US should be fine.

You should find it disturbing when a group of young Arab students come on a student visa for some made up camp or school and just vanish off the grid. Things like that happen.

For example, take the OB/GYN with twenty years experience from Lebannon over the nineteen year old no profession Palestinian kid from Gaza and only consider someone who passes certain criteria. Keep America statistically safe and give the privledge for those who will not be a burden on society. If discriminating in immigration policy is too hard to maintain, just don't take any immigrants.

I have some very recent experience with the INS, or whatever they are called now. Two daughters and four grandchildren just joined us from the Philippines, which may be the country that s teated the worst, in terms of immigrants allowed. We are the sponsors of these six people, and had to sign a statement that we would be responsible for their upkeep and they would not apply for any kind of welfare fo at least five years. I don't know if other immigrants have to go through all that or not, but I understand there used to be some restrictions on them. I mean, they had to have a certain amount of money or a job waiting when they arrived.

The reason I say that the Philippines is treated badly compared to other nations is that there was a fifteen year wait between the time their applications were passed and the processing on them started. It is impossible for an individual to get a visa to the USA unless they are solid citizens in the Philippines, or government officials, or other special cases.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I don't know. I think the Jews have a pretty strong claim for most persecuted in the last hundred years. No one else can claim six million dead because of religion.

(snip)

.

Even without The Holocaust, they have a strong case. Until 9/ll, there was probably more anti-Jewish sentiment in the USA than there was for any other faith. For instance, the KKK is almost as much anti-Jewish as they are anti-Black. The Nazis may be even moreso.

By the way, saying "Even without The Holocaust" would be much like saying "Outside of that, Mrs. Kennedy, how did you enjoy your trip to Dallas?"

I may be mistaken, but I believe that Muslims may be more stand-offish than members of other faiths. I mean, friends who are Jewish and Christian can get together fo religious ceremonies of one or the other. Would Muslims do that, either as guests or celebrants?