I've been wanting to tell this story

rgraham666

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For a long time. Due to that fooforaw that's brewing on the 'degree thread' I think I'll tell it.

About twenty five years ago I started work at a small computer company here in Toronto. They'd do the whole nine yards for other companies. Install the mini-computer system, write the programs the clients needed and maintain the system.

I think they hired me mostly because I worked cheap, but it soon became apparent that they had no idea what to do with me. I'd be placed on projects on an ad hoc basis to do little jobs.

Finally they placed me on maintenance to clean up after program crashes and to fix the bugs.

It soon became apparent most of my work would be with one company. This was a manufacturing company. And one part of the system was especially bad; the 'change orders' part. Although the 'enter orders' part needed work too.

The 'enter orders' and 'change orders' was the most used part. And between them they crashed at least three times a day leaving orphan records all over the place. They didn't have filtering to make sure the right data was entered. They didn't have masking to display the data correctly. They didn't check the product file to make sure the product actually existed. They didn't update inventories properly. They didn't calculate taxes properly. They did not update the general ledger properly. The audit trail wasn't updated properly.

The whole thing was a mess. It represented three months work by a team of six and I was spending four hours a day picking up after it.

I tried to alert the managers and the owners of my company to this but it was always, "The client has signed off on it." So it became apparent I was going to be a janitor for a long time.

I decided to do something about it. So I went to the client company and spent a day on the production line and in the office learning how they did things. Then I got to work.

I took a couple of days to plan out what I wanted to do. I also delved into a book on accounting so I could finally understand how double entry bookkeeping worked.

I called up my liaison at the client company and told them that in three weeks time I'll have a new 'enter and change orders' program for them. They'd have to make sure their files are clean and an inventory done. I guaranteed that the new system would work.

Then I got to work. I spent five 12 to 16 hour days coding. Most of that in the data entry areas. The file update areas I blocked off into discrete chunks so that each block of code updated one and one record only. I also set it up so that if the program died it would start up again where it left off.

By the time the coding was done I realized I'd severely underestimated the time I'd need. So the next two weeks were 14 to 20 hour days testing the living shit out of my code. Good thing I did because there were a lot of bugs, a lot of bugs.

But I made it. On the day I said I dragged my ass to the client, installed the program. And it worked. It worked every day for the next three years. Bombed once and it took me twenty minutes to fix it.

Now according to our mythology that is the sort of thing that gets an employee noticed and rewarded.

You'd be wrong.

My peers were unhappy with me because I'd made them look bad. Especially the ones remaining from the original project. (Half left within two weeks of the client signing off. I wonder why?)

The middle managers were pissed at me because I'd done what I did without permission. I know, 'ask for forgiveness, not permission'. But they never forgave me.

The owners were very unhappy for reasons not apparent immediately.

I didn't care. I knew I did a good job. The people that actually did the work at the client were ecstatic. My program was now a help rather than a pain in the ass.

It became clear to me exactly how bad I'd fucked up a few weeks later when the client did their first month end. The owner of the client company calls up and says in a hushed voice. "Oh my God! The General Ledger is telling the truth!"

"Oh good," I reply. "I worked hard to get that right." Then I realize he's not hushed because he's happy or surprised. He's scared.

"Is there some way to make changes to the G/L?" he asks then.

"Oh yes. Use 'make G/L changes' program. And I got the audit trail working."

If I thought he'd been scared before I could now practically hear his bowels let go over the phone. "Is there some way I can change the G/L without updating the audit trail?"

I, innocent naif that I am, finally clue in. "Why would you want to do that?"

"Never mind," he says, and hangs up.

Ten minutes later I get called into the owner's offices and roundly chastised for my poor customer relationship skills. :rolleyes:

It turns out the client's owner was a serial book cooker. With a busted system, a common thing at the time, he could use the manual books he 'maintained' for taxes and stockholders. The owners of my company knew this and were pleased to go along as long as a steady revenue stream for 'maintenance' came in.

I'd screwed all that up. :devil:

I never rose in that company. And when I left I had to threaten to sue them to get a recommendation.

Every one involved had degrees save me and the people at the client company who had to do the work.

Now you know why I'm rather cynical about the utility of degrees.
 
In my honest opinion, Rob, that's got nothing to do with degrees, it's to do with dishonesty.

Really. All the people against you were against you because you were honest and did the best you could for the client, what you thought was in their best interests to give them a reliable system.

What they wanted, and your employer, was a bum system that enable them to be dishonest.

Don't denigrate degree holders, because of a dishonest few.

Please.
 
In my honest opinion, Rob, that's got nothing to do with degrees, it's to do with dishonesty.

Really. All the people against you were against you because you were honest and did the best you could for the client, what you thought was in their best interests to give them a reliable system.

What they wanted, and your employer, was a bum system that enable them to be dishonest.

Don't denigrate degree holders, because of a dishonest few.

Please.

Exactly. It's an honesty problem, not an education one.
 
I don't, mat.

But neither am I going to honor them simply because they have degrees. And to be fair I've known lots of wise, honest and good degree holders.

But I wait to see how people, regardless of their level of education, act before I judge them.
 
I don't, mat.

But neither am I going to honor them simply because they have degrees. And to be fair I've known lots of wise, honest and good degree holders.

But I wait to see how people, regardless of their level of education, act before I judge them.
yeah, duh, but you just told us about the bad eggs, and instead of pointing out that they are innately dishonest, you tie it to the degrees that they hold, as if that were the pertinent ingredient.

Tell us about some of the wise honest degree holders, huh?
 
I don't, mat.

But neither am I going to honor them simply because they have degrees. And to be fair I've known lots of wise, honest and good degree holders.

But I wait to see how people, regardless of their level of education, act before I judge them.

Me too.

The one thing I've always said to my kids, and still do, is that I don't care what they do with their lives, as long as it's honest, legal and they are happy. I wouldn't care if they were sweeping the streets, as long as they are happy.

And I meant every word of it.

Eldest went to uni to do an engineering degree, and after 2 years, had the courage to admit it was too much for him, and it wasn't what he wanted to do. He came home, took on a crap job for crap money, just to have work, and then gradually worked up. He now runs the computer system for a very large horticulature company.

The youngest went to uni to do a degree in modern history, and after some crap with one of the shitty tutors who'd never done anything except exist within an educational environment (school, uni - as a student, uni - as a tutor), he graduated with an honours degree. He now has a very good consultancy job with one of the biggest insurance companies in UK, working in e-marketing after starting at the bottom in the call centre.

I'm proud of them both, and would be, no matter what they did with their lives.

It's all about personality and character and what you do with the degree once you've got it.
 
I don't, mat.

But neither am I going to honor them simply because they have degrees. And to be fair I've known lots of wise, honest and good degree holders.

But I wait to see how people, regardless of their level of education, act before I judge them.

You know what, Rob? I don't expect any special treatment just because I have a degree. In fact, I rarely mention it. I don't even think about it. The only time I do think about it or mention it is when someone (usually a person who does not have a degree) starts talking about how superior they are to me because they are just as smart, talented, whatever, without having my education, implying (I think) that I'm an idiot for going to college in the first place.

I am NOT saying you are doing that right now, so please don't become offended and chew me out. All I'm saying is I don't judge people based on their level of education either, and it pisses me off when people imply that I do. It pisses me off when people imply that I think I'm extra special because I have the privilege of education. Because, really, that's all it is. A privilege.

Do I think I'm smart? Yep. I hung in there for six years to get that degree. I hated college, and there were many hardships along the way. I don't need to get into all that. Do I think I'm smart? Hell yes, I'm smart. I stuck with it. I didn't let anybody beat me down or take it away from me.

Mat is right. Your experience doesn't have a lot to do with education. It has to do with people being jerks.
 
Not getting into the degree skedaddle, I'll just say this:

Gotta love them morons. You can't work with them, you're not allowed to hit them over the head with a shovel.
 
I don't, mat.

But neither am I going to honor them simply because they have degrees. And to be fair I've known lots of wise, honest and good degree holders.

But I wait to see how people, regardless of their level of education, act before I judge them.

I agree completely, Rob.

And also with what TK said.

I don't bow down to degree holders, nor do I sneer at those without higher education.

It works both ways.
 
Sorry all.

I realize I'm being just as bad as the people that sneered at me because I never finished high school.

I apologize absolutely.
 
Sorry all.

I realize I'm being just as bad as the people that sneered at me because I never finished high school.

I apologize absolutely.

You're a love. :rose:

What are you going to buy for yourself with your lottery winnings?
 
Before I started working for the place where I've been for the last five years, I worked for a nonprofit, transcribing reports from caseworkers and family support workers (the caseworkers were the ones with the degrees). Now, as anyone who's transcribed work for social worker types knows, they need a firm editorial hand in order to make their stuff readable. I clashed with one of them over one such issue--she resented some of the cleaning-up I'd done.

"I have a degree in social work," she pointed out to me.

"And I have a degree in English," I said, and that was it.

I have seldom told this story--I haven't had to, because one of the family support workers who was there thought it was funny as hell and she's told it many a time.
 
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Before I started working for the place where I've been for the last five years, I worked for a nonprofit, transcribing reports from caseworkers and family support workers (the caseworkers were the ones with the degrees). Now, as anyone who's transcribed work for social worker types knows, they need a firm editorial hand in order to make their stuff readable. I clashed with one of them over one such issue--she resented some of the cleaning-up I'd done.

"I have a degree in social work," she pointed out to me.

"And I have a degree in English," I said, and that was it.

I have seldom told this story--I haven't had to, because one of the family support workers who was there thought it was funny as hell and she's told it many time.

I'm with you on this. I transcribe for M.D.'s and P.h.D.'s. It's easy to make fun of them for their screw ups, but OMG the sheer volume of stuff they need to know is staggering. I think, as someone said somewhere on this thread or the other, that their minds are always on loftier pursuits. They're thinking about the patients and not sentence structure and grammar.
 
Sorry all.

I realize I'm being just as bad as the people that sneered at me because I never finished high school.

I apologize absolutely.
I appreciate that. I know damn well there are people who would sneer at you, but really, it's because they are assholes, not because they have an education.:kiss:
 
Today's education system is built for the great Middle. Some people are just too blamed smart to function in a classroom. I'm doing my damnededst to fix that situation at my school. If it works, I'll take my show on the Consultant road. Rob, I apologize for being a couple of generations too late for you. It isn't you, it's a dysfunctional education system.

:rose:
 
You're a love. :rose:

What are you going to buy for yourself with your lottery winnings?
I bought myself dinner. I've got my priorities.

VM? When I went to school there were, unfortunately, only two types of kids in the system. Normal and stupid. So I got to go through school being told constantly that I was stupid.

Got to believe it after a while. Been working hard to overcome it. I've never quite succeeded. Sigh.
 
I'm with you on this. I transcribe for M.D.'s and P.h.D.'s. It's easy to make fun of them for their screw ups, but OMG the sheer volume of stuff they need to know is staggering. I think, as someone said somewhere on this thread or the other, that their minds are always on loftier pursuits. They're thinking about the patients and not sentence structure and grammar.

That's exactly why they should leave sentence structure and grammar to me. I didn't tell them how to do their job.
 
I think I've told this story before but here goes again ;)

Mum spent about 25 years working in a lab for the NHS (Automated Serology for those who want to know). She started there at 16 without much of an education because she failed her 11+ (another story for another time). She was told for about 20 years of that - by her SUPERVISOR who if I ever see again I'm going to string up - she was stupid and should be glad she had her job. He sabotaged her career in a lot of ways. She got so pissed off with it, she applied for another job in the IT side and went over his head for a reference. She got the ref and the job.

This year, after much thinking, she looked into doing a course in Bioinformatics. She has some Open University credits, but no formal degree of any type. She was looking at doing a part-time Undergrad course. On an open day at the University of Sheffield, the course tutor made her apply for the Masters. In fact he fell over himself making sure she not only applied but got in.

The first day of the course was a bit of a meet and greet. A lot of the newly-passed BSc's who were going straight into MSc sneered as soon as they heard she didn't have any formal qualifications. The tutor quickly pointed out that not only did she not *need* a degree, she had FAR more worth as someone who hadn't been in the field for as long as she had, and later he told her privately that he'd rather have one of her, than ten BSc's with an attitude problem.

To top it all off, she got the highest mark of her class on the first assignment, and one of the bitchy BSc's failed MISERABLY.

So yeah, I don't put much stock in degrees by themselves, it tends to be the person that earned them *g*

(Dad is also quite successful despite an appalling education - he was headhunted for his current job by one of the MDs who basically said "name your terms". His advice is probably some of the most saught after in the company. This is the guy who was "made redundant" by one of his previous employers after they tried to fire him under false pretenses because he knew too much about a few things the company, despite the fact he was *extremely* well known in his industry and all hell would have broken out if they found out he had been fired, especially for the bullshit reason they came up with.)
 
I also was a computer programmer. I was able to get jobs only because I had a college degree.

After a sudden layoff, I got a job with a small firm. I there met one of the brightest programmers I had ever met. The guy was an 'Army brat.' He had a lot of trouble with school and, after the third grade, his mother taught him at home. Thus, the 'last grade completed' was third grade.

I worked with the guy for a bit and learned some very useful things from him. Then the small company was acquired by a larger company. The 'third grade guy' was out the door and on the street with his final paycheck in his hand the next day after the new company took over. The reason given was that he was 'unqualified.' The fact the the 'unqualified' guy was doing far more than his share of the work didn't matter. No degree = unqualified.

If you have a college degree, you're qualified. If not, you're not qualified. Ask any personnel department.
 
I also was a computer programmer. I was able to get jobs only because I had a college degree.

After a sudden layoff, I got a job with a small firm. I there met one of the brightest programmers I had ever met. The guy was an 'Army brat.' He had a lot of trouble with school and, after the third grade, his mother taught him at home. Thus, the 'last grade completed' was third grade.

I worked with the guy for a bit and learned some very useful things from him. Then the small company was acquired by a larger company. The 'third grade guy' was out the door and on the street with his final paycheck in his hand the next day after the new company took over. The reason given was that he was 'unqualified.' The fact the the 'unqualified' guy was doing far more than his share of the work didn't matter. No degree = unqualified.

If you have a college degree, you're qualified. If not, you're not qualified. Ask any personnel department.

And let's not talk about what you have to be to be "highly qualified" to teach. I know entirely too many "highly qualified" great, gaping, rubber, flaming assholes!
 
I also was a computer programmer. I was able to get jobs only because I had a college degree. <snip> If you have a college degree, you're qualified. If not, you're not qualified. Ask any personnel department.

Sad, but true. When I graduated with a BA...I was asked to work full time at a job I was doing part-time to put myself thru school...the degree bore zero in content vis-a-vis the job I was doing. I prospered, rose in pay and title...then I was offered a job at another organization for more pay and a supervisors position...I hadn't been there a year and the pressure was on me to get a Masters in the field...so I did going at night and on weekends.

The ink was barely dry on my Masters diploma when the organization went down...I wound up taking a job I was way overqualified for...and worked my way up the ladder again. Point of all this being my first degree didn't factor that much in my being hired...the second didn't prevent me from losing my job...nor did it figure prominently in my obtaining another position.

I enjoyed college. I learned a lot and it has helped me in many ways through the years...but to require a degree for a degrees sake in order to gain employment is rather pointless...but they do look nice hanging on the office wall. ;)
 
It's Ross Ashby's law of Requisite Variety again (go Google if you want details). In practice, organisations use enough control to get what they want - and, yes, that really means the assholes who do that job.

Reducing apprehension of variety to a binary, degree / no degree criterion violates the Law by not having requisite variety - and the organisation as well as the individual will suffer in consequence.

Apples, canon balls and feathers will all fall as a consequence of the Law of Gravity. Stupid decisions that don't allow enough options also fall - though in a different sense of the word.

Ignoring - or not knowing - natural (or legislative) laws is no excuse.
 
Well that sucks, after all that hard work…and I feel your pain. however, welcome to business politics. I’m not trying to be a pain in the ass but that company sucks and if the management above the fools did nothing then you are better off with out that company and move on to the next company. That is what sucks about the free market, but when you find a good company life is so much better.

In most companies one has to do a great job, pay attention to the political landscape, and do the dance. Its business and it sucks. It takes ten rocks to find a nugget of gold. I find it all the time and lean.

I had a friend working for a government agency, and he was also in technology. He took the job and they wanted him to install a document imaging system and gave him a time table of five months to get it working. He got the system running in two days. He was fired a week later cuz he showed up the current staff and management. Was he pissed? No, cuz he knew that was not the type of company he wanted to work for. He did go to the CEO and sell his case but the VP of technology head was for far up his ass his plea did not matter, nor did it matter that he did a kick butt job. My friend took his lumps and found another job a week later and leaned about office politics.

But…lets say that the company was a “union shop” that same management would have put you in jobs to drive you to leave the company…to make your work life so miserable that you had to leave.

For a long time. Due to that fooforaw that's brewing on the 'degree thread' I think I'll tell it.

About twenty five years ago I started work at a small computer company here in Toronto. They'd do the whole nine yards for other companies. Install the mini-computer system, write the programs the clients needed and maintain the system.

I think they hired me mostly because I worked cheap, but it soon became apparent that they had no idea what to do with me. I'd be placed on projects on an ad hoc basis to do little jobs.

Finally they placed me on maintenance to clean up after program crashes and to fix the bugs.

It soon became apparent most of my work would be with one company. This was a manufacturing company. And one part of the system was especially bad; the 'change orders' part. Although the 'enter orders' part needed work too.

The 'enter orders' and 'change orders' was the most used part. And between them they crashed at least three times a day leaving orphan records all over the place. They didn't have filtering to make sure the right data was entered. They didn't have masking to display the data correctly. They didn't check the product file to make sure the product actually existed. They didn't update inventories properly. They didn't calculate taxes properly. They did not update the general ledger properly. The audit trail wasn't updated properly.

The whole thing was a mess. It represented three months work by a team of six and I was spending four hours a day picking up after it.

I tried to alert the managers and the owners of my company to this but it was always, "The client has signed off on it." So it became apparent I was going to be a janitor for a long time.

I decided to do something about it. So I went to the client company and spent a day on the production line and in the office learning how they did things. Then I got to work.

I took a couple of days to plan out what I wanted to do. I also delved into a book on accounting so I could finally understand how double entry bookkeeping worked.

I called up my liaison at the client company and told them that in three weeks time I'll have a new 'enter and change orders' program for them. They'd have to make sure their files are clean and an inventory done. I guaranteed that the new system would work.

Then I got to work. I spent five 12 to 16 hour days coding. Most of that in the data entry areas. The file update areas I blocked off into discrete chunks so that each block of code updated one and one record only. I also set it up so that if the program died it would start up again where it left off.

By the time the coding was done I realized I'd severely underestimated the time I'd need. So the next two weeks were 14 to 20 hour days testing the living shit out of my code. Good thing I did because there were a lot of bugs, a lot of bugs.

But I made it. On the day I said I dragged my ass to the client, installed the program. And it worked. It worked every day for the next three years. Bombed once and it took me twenty minutes to fix it.

Now according to our mythology that is the sort of thing that gets an employee noticed and rewarded.

You'd be wrong.

My peers were unhappy with me because I'd made them look bad. Especially the ones remaining from the original project. (Half left within two weeks of the client signing off. I wonder why?)

The middle managers were pissed at me because I'd done what I did without permission. I know, 'ask for forgiveness, not permission'. But they never forgave me.

The owners were very unhappy for reasons not apparent immediately.

I didn't care. I knew I did a good job. The people that actually did the work at the client were ecstatic. My program was now a help rather than a pain in the ass.

It became clear to me exactly how bad I'd fucked up a few weeks later when the client did their first month end. The owner of the client company calls up and says in a hushed voice. "Oh my God! The General Ledger is telling the truth!"

"Oh good," I reply. "I worked hard to get that right." Then I realize he's not hushed because he's happy or surprised. He's scared.

"Is there some way to make changes to the G/L?" he asks then.

"Oh yes. Use 'make G/L changes' program. And I got the audit trail working."

If I thought he'd been scared before I could now practically hear his bowels let go over the phone. "Is there some way I can change the G/L without updating the audit trail?"

I, innocent naif that I am, finally clue in. "Why would you want to do that?"

"Never mind," he says, and hangs up.

Ten minutes later I get called into the owner's offices and roundly chastised for my poor customer relationship skills. :rolleyes:

It turns out the client's owner was a serial book cooker. With a busted system, a common thing at the time, he could use the manual books he 'maintained' for taxes and stockholders. The owners of my company knew this and were pleased to go along as long as a steady revenue stream for 'maintenance' came in.

I'd screwed all that up. :devil:

I never rose in that company. And when I left I had to threaten to sue them to get a recommendation.

Every one involved had degrees save me and the people at the client company who had to do the work.

Now you know why I'm rather cynical about the utility of degrees.
 
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