2009 Survivor Literotica Poetry Challenge: Planning & Plotting

[Lauren Hynde]

So, you think you're a poet. You wrote a poem or two, and they're really quite good. People read your work, they comment, they are wondering what you'll come up with next. Are you a one-hit wonder, or do you have what it takes to go the distance?

How would you feel about a year-long challenge, a marathon that will force you to push the lyrical envelop and stretch your poetic muscles? Take the 30-in-30 thread and pump it full of steroids. Add a list of required forms and weekly themed challenges. Waiting for you at the end of the rainbow would be a place in the gallery of immortals, and Amazon gift certificates for those who are not afraid of exploring their own limits, courtesy of our kitty-mama Laurel and papa Manu.

 

[champagne1982]

ooOooOOooo. Yes. I'd prefer a steroidal 30 in 30 than trying to write all those category stories for the Classic Survivor Contest.

 

[Tzara]

How would you feel about a year-long challenge, a marathon that will force you to push the lyrical envelop and stretch your poetic muscles? Take the 30-in-30 thread and pump it full of steroids. Add a list of required forms and weekly themed challenges.

I'd want to see the details, of course, but it sounds interesting. I'm always ready to write bad poetry on topics I know nothing about.

Certainly it would be more fun than trying to crank out 750 word stories about anal sex encounters with android werewolves, or something. That never seemed to have much appeal.

 

[Liar]

Scary as fuuuuck, but intriguing.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I'd want to see the details, of course, but it sounds interesting.

Well, that's what this thread is about. Let's brainstorm together. I had the vision and got Laurel's approval. But I still haven't figured out the mechanics yet.

I need to wake up first, though.

 

[The_Fool]

Would love to play as time permits. Hard for me to keep to a tight schedule, but if you make the rules such that it is within a specific month or at least two week period I can probably keep up.

 

[AChild]

I'm down

 

[UnderYourSpell]

What happens when you are away on vacation?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

What happens when you are away on vacation?

I party hard and sleep till later, I guess.

The challenge would have to be self-sustained on its own momentum. The list of required forms could be pre-determined, the list of themes can be pre-determined, etc.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Interested.

 

[champagne1982]

Over at editred there's a particularly hardworking contributor who organizes bi-monthly poetry challenges. The winners are merely granted the recognition of writing a poem that best fits the challenges and suits the contest moderator's taste the most.

Here, how will the winner be determined? The way I see it sheer volume is going to be the only non-biased criterion to base anything on. Peer voting is out of the question since personality or popularity will add bias that no matter how refuted by the participants, will effect the outcome of any voting. Finally, since taste is personal, subjective judging by a select panel will often lead to unfounded accusations of favour or cheating.

I know we like to believe we're loftier than most because we're poets or note: poets; as if that will elevate the participants higher than the other riff raff but we're human and even though the thought is poo poo'd today, there will be a time when that sort of poor sportsmanship will enter. Let's address that before we begin.

I'd really like to see a way to judge this and reward the best poem for each genre/form/theme rather than to name a winner because of profilacy. I believe that is a pure utopia and unreasonable. But, due to the sheer volume of the task at hand, to write these poems and have them submitted and published on Lit over the course of a year should be challenge enough.

Rather than impose order and time limits on each poem, would it be possible to run it like the survivor contest currently? Will we have all of the year's requirements listed ahead of time and be able to pick and choose which and when we write and submit the pieces to fit each slot?

I know we could develop enough poem categories to fill a calendar. Who's good at Excel?

 

[Tzara]

Here, how will the winner be determined? The way I see it sheer volume is going to be the only non-biased criterion to base anything on.

I can't think of any other criterion that would work. And, presumably, the object is to generate a lot of poems in a lot of different styles and forms.

If the contest involves multiple forms and styles, there will still be some judgment involved. For example, what is a sonnet? The modern definition of sonnet seems sometimes to mean simply a poem of fourteen lines (and occasionally doesn't even mean that). Would that satisfy a sonnet requirement, or would we judge a poem a proper sonnet only if it is written in true iambic pentameter, following the accepted rhyme scheme of a Petrarchan sonnet, with an octet followed by a sestet, and with a volta linking the two? And who decides whether a particular poem meets those criteria?

Or, if the requirement is for an erotic poem, who is to judge whether the submitted poem truly is erotic and what criteria do they use?

Rather than impose order and time limits on each poem, would it be possible to run it like the survivor contest currently? Will we have all of the year's requirements listed ahead of time and be able to pick and choose which and when we write and submit the pieces to fit each slot?

I prefer a structure where there are no time limits on a particular form or theme, or if time limits are a requirement, that they are fairly flexible--say a month or quarter rather than a week. I also like the idea of some kind of flexible cap on categories such as has been proposed for the current Survivor contest. Otherwise, someone could simply write a thousand "haiku" and avoid demonstrating any degree of breadth. Cap each category at three to five poems and require that all categories be filled before allowing more points. (This sounds like significant work to me, but it roughly is what I understand is being proposed for the main Survivor game, so I suppose the moderators are willing to do it.)

But whatever is proposed is probably OK with me. It sounds like a good way of getting me to try a lot of different things and I always find that entertaining.

I may have to mind-meld some of my different personalities, though. Which should be interesting of itself.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

OK, I think we're getting somewhere. This is what I am seeing now:

- A list of forms (we can link it to a different thread with short definitions, requirements and examples for each form).

- A list of themes ("falling in love", "dead lover", "murder most foul", a song title of your choice, etc).

With complete flexibility when it comes to time, write a poem using a form from the list and a theme from the list. Then another with a different form or a different theme. No repetitions, and we can have one of those dynamic caps like Tzara suggest: you can only write a maximum of 3 poems in each form or theme. If you already have 3 poems in each form and each theme, then you can write 5 poems. If you write 5 poems in each and every form, in each and every theme, then you can write 6. Then 7, then 8, and so on. If we have a list with 30 forms and 30 themes, for example, there will be 900 possible combinations. That should keep us busy for a while.

In addiction to this, we could have a special themed challenge once a month, for example, like the prose section has the special holiday contests.

 

[DocktorWu]

I don’t see a way it could not be subjective unless you base it solely on participation.
Besides poets are always being judged subjectively through the submissions process.

My thoughts:

A participating Moderator to create the weekly threads.
A panel of 3 judges to score the poems.
A host to post the results.

52 categories assigned for the competition this could be a variety of forms, device, topics, and assorted challenges. At the beginning of each week the forums Moderators would create a thread specifically for this purpose “Poetry Survivor Week One” or some such. The host would then post examples and explanations of the challenge to be written on.

Each contestant would assume an identity for the competition and post to the weekly threads. The use of a pseudonym would help with impartiality with the judges.

After a 7-day period the thread is closed to posting. There should be only poems and no comments in the thread other than the host. The judges then rate each poem on a 1 to 10 scale in two categories, fulfillment of theme and the poems overall merit. These scores are submitted to the judges. The judges send the scores back to the moderator. The scores are averaged, added or some kind of amalgamation to produce a single score. The host posts the scores in the thread.

Each week, month, bi-monthly or quarter some form of elimination must be made. This is based on the participants score. Depending on the number of entries this could be 1 person or a group, think of grading on a curve the bottom third or quarter do not get to pass on. Once the final two are decided former contestants vote the winner, or use the normal scoring process.

To help keep interest up there could be two winners Writers who are eliminated in the main competition could enter the weekly challenge in an alternate thread. They would not be judged but enter into a lottery system for an alternate prize at the end of the competition.

There was once a "Poetry Olympics" here a long time ago It involved a lot of people does anyone remember how that was done?

 

[champagne1982]

Hi Doc, That's waaaay too complicated. Survivor is based on participation not quality. You are your own best judge in what is a winning or losing poem. If you cheat the system, then you cheat yourself, kinda like faking orgasm when you masturbate... all you've done is waste time.
________________________________

to the rest of the forum:
That said, I like the idea of a chart to fill although 30 themes seem stretching the poetic muscles just a bit. I think one requirement is enough per poem, I mean 30 sonnets on themes not of your own choosing, bleh. You'd cut down participation a lot and thus make the contest full of the same people all of the time. Commitment to 365 poems is enough, IMO.

Lauren's suggested limits are terrific, I think. We shouldn't be able to score for more than 3 haiku until at least one poem of each required formula is posted, then no more than 5 until all of the rest are topped up to 3. This way, we're required to write 90 poems before the 91st can revisit an easier form to produce than say, a sestina...

I suggest leaving the use of audio and illustrations optional. If I post an illustrated haiku, then that fills the form requirement just as posting an audio limerick would. I make a point of it here, because of hosting/posting difficulties some of us more geekishly challenged folk need to overcome.

 

[Angeline]

Hi Doc, That's waaaay too complicated. Survivor is based on participation not quality. You are your own best judge in what is a winning or losing poem. If you cheat the system, then you cheat yourself, kinda like faking orgasm when you masturbate... all you've done is waste time.
________________________________

to the rest of the forum:
That said, I like the idea of a chart to fill although 30 themes seem stretching the poetic muscles just a bit. I think one requirement is enough per poem, I mean 30 sonnets on themes not of your own choosing, bleh. You'd cut down participation a lot and thus make the contest full of the same people all of the time. Commitment to 365 poems is enough, IMO.

Lauren's suggested limits are terrific, I think. We shouldn't be able to score for more than 3 haiku until at least one poem of each required formula is posted, then no more than 5 until all of the rest are topped up to 3. This way, we're required to write 90 poems before the 91st can revisit an easier form to produce than say, a sestina...

I suggest leaving the use of audio and illustrations optional. If I post an illustrated haiku, then that fills the form requirement just as posting an audio limerick would. I make a point of it here, because of hosting/posting difficulties some of us more geekishly challenged folk need to overcome.

I think a balance between form and free verse is fair. As to the selection of which forms, well we could do an anonymous poll to determine which people are most willing to write.

But I think a poetry survivor challenge that merely has participation and completion as its goals doesn't go far enough. I'd wager any of us here could write 30 bad poems (and produce em right quick at that). It also has to be about quality. Any good judges can come up with acceptable criteria for quality in advance of the contest: things like effective use of images, metaphors, creative use of enjambment, consistency of theme across the poem and, for form poems, there's also meeting the requirements of the form (obviously). If you think about it, these are all qualities any of us might think of (or flash on) as we're reading a poem and deciding how good said poem is. It may be mostly subconscience for many, but there is evaluation going on as we read. We just need to codify what, specifically, those criteria are before the contest begins.

And beyond form and free verse, we could use some same title challenges and. as Dr. Wu said, assorted themes, topics. I bet if we started a brainstorming thread, we could come up with great ideas. Tzara's Eckphrastic challenge, for example, would work really well.

Oh and I'm with you on the mixed media thing. Some people just aren't interested in doing illustrated poems or audio poems. Some people don't have the technical wherewithal to produce such poems, so it makes more sense to keep the playing field level and give some free choice weeks, where people can do the mixed-media stuff if they are so inclined.

And hey Lauren? What's the grand prize for this? Is it on a par with the story survivor contest?

 

[Angeline]

Here are some great sites from which to draw ideas for survivor poems:

Kalliope Poetry Workshop Exercises

Jacaranda Press Poetry Exercises

(Soma)tic Poetry Exercises

Executive Pagan Poetry Exercises (this one has some very interesting exercises for writing in different meters)

There's lots more out there. Five minutes of seaching produced the list I just came up with. There are some cool exercises for producing "found poem," too though I didn't list any specific ones here.

Lol, Lauren. Remember when I said I didn't have time for this?

 

[champagne1982]

I don't know Ang. Here we're rewarding people for talent over participation if a group of people, who may or may not be qualified to judge, determine a "winner". I think that continued sub-survivor challenges would satisfy those of us who prefer aesthetics over volume and still encourage the every day joe or josephine to play in the big game. There would be no exclusion of contest entries into the survivor grid (excepting that the participants need to wait until the subcontest is over before putting their name to the entry) if people choose to do so.

All taken into thought, I'd rather have a contest full of bad writing than one with bad feeling, and that's definitely going to happen if we begin to judge for "winners". Maybe there could be a bonus prize for the survivor contestant who submits the most sub-contest qualifiers or something to that effect. I can't think of a more impartial way to run something like this.

 

[champagne1982]

Oh, and to add a point:

Contest entries must remain posted until after the winner is declared. No deleted poems could continue to earn points for Survivor.

 

[Angeline]

I don't know Ang. Here we're rewarding people for talent over participation if a group of people, who may or may not be qualified to judge, determine a "winner". I think that continued sub-survivor challenges would satisfy those of us who prefer aesthetics over volume and still encourage the every day joe or josephine to play in the big game. There would be no exclusion of contest entries into the survivor grid (excepting that the participants need to wait until the subcontest is over before putting their name to the entry) if people choose to do so.

All taken into thought, I'd rather have a contest full of bad writing than one with bad feeling, and that's definitely going to happen if we begin to judge for "winners". Maybe there could be a bonus prize for the survivor contestant who submits the most sub-contest qualifiers or something to that effect. I can't think of a more impartial way to run something like this.

Well I wouldn't go for a panel of judges either (people never seem to trust them to be impartial--and I know for myself that I'd judge according to my own standards for what constitutes good poetry, which of course are not necessarily anyone else's standards). I do, however, think we could have voting, anonymous or otherwise. I have always liked the idea of peers (i.e., participants) voting, but really I'm fine with however people want to do it. Your point about not making it so judgmental that we lose participants is well taken. And I wouldn't want to be a judge anyway because if I am involved I'd rather be a writer than a judger.

I don't know how the story survivor contest selects winners. It it just done of the basis of completing the most stories? I guess I can see how people would have bad feelings over there being a winner (or winners), but that does strike me as being overly sensitive, like people who leave the comments option open and then get ticked because anyone says their poem is less than perfect. To me, making a poem public is an implicit invitation for people to judge the writing, whether they say anything or not. Part of becoming a poet is developing a thick skin, isn't it? (Hence the not for the thin-skinned thread).

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Would everyone know what forms are required before signing up for this thing? Yeah yeah you should all know by now what my big stumbling block is!

 

[Safe_Bet]

...But I think a poetry survivor challenge that merely has participation and completion as its goals doesn't go far enough. I'd wager any of us here could write 30 bad poems (and produce em right quick at that). It also has to be about quality...

I don't agree, Ange. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the "traditional" Survivor Challenge is suppose to encourage a person to write on a consistent basis, thereby improving their skills (like Lauren said - 30/30 on steroids).

So you have to ask what the purpose of this particular challenge would be. Quality of a few good poems (which is WAY diff from the traditional) or volume / consistent output. One (quality) will limit participation. I am not going to put my poetry up against Eve's, Champs, Pandy's, yours, etc, cuz I will lose. That is a plain old fact and you know it. On the other hand (quantity) you get a lot of suckage, but you also get a chance to improve over the course of the challenge (If I write poetry consistently over a whole year I WILL be much better by the end).

The other problem with a "quality" contest is having enough grading criteria that you can determine a winner. If Sassy, bj & Tzara all write good, quality poems that meet all of the criteria, who's the winner? It then becomes "subjective" again and you gets back into the issues that Champ mentioned.

That's why, IMO, I'd like to see this as an inclusive / togetherness thing, than an exclusive / divisive thing. My two cents for what they’re worth.


ETA Just saw your latest comments. I would not want to base the scoring on votes / comments because there are not enough of them. If somebody has a bone to pick with me they can "0" bomb one of my poems and that one vote will have a MAJOR impact in the rankings and their aren't hundreds / thousands of votes to offset it. I don't want to sound like BFW, but that is a great possibility because I have gotten "0" bombed several times by people who could care less about my poetry but want to personally hurt me for something I might have said in a different forum.

 

[Angeline]

I don't agree, Ange. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the "traditional" Survivor Challenge is suppose to encourage a person to write on a consistent basis, thereby improving their skills (like Lauren said - 30/30 on steroids).

So you have to ask what the purpose of this particular challenge would be. Quality of a few good poems (which is WAY diff from the traditional) or volume / consistent output. One (quality) will limit participation. I am not going to put my poetry up against Eve's, Champs, Pandy's, yours, etc, cuz I will lose. That is a plain old fact and you know it. On the other hand (quantity) you get a lot of suckage, but you also get a chance to improve over the course of the challenge (If I write poetry consistently over a whole year I WILL be much better by the end).

The other problem with a "quality" contest is having enough grading criteria that you can determine a winner. If Sassy, bj & Tzara all write good, quality poems that meet all of the criteria, who's the winner? It then becomes "subjective" again and you gets back into the issues that Champ mentioned.

That's why, IMO, I'd like to see this as an inclusive / togetherness thing, than an exclusive / divisive thing. My two cents for what they’re worth.


ETA Just saw your latest comments. I would not want to base the scoring on votes / comments because there are not enough of them. If somebody has a bone to pick with me they can "0" bomb one of my poems and that one vote will have a MAJOR impact in the rankings and their aren't hundreds / thousands of votes to offset it. I don't want to sound like BFW, but that is a great possibility because I have gotten "0" bombed several times by people who could care less about my poetry but want to personally hurt me for something I might have said in a different forum.

Oh, I didn't mean votes as they are done in the regular Lit submissions/voting process. I don't think that system works at all and never have. If one were to search, they'd find I've been against the Lit voting/ranking system since 2002. When I mentioned voting earlier, I meant in the context of the participants in a specific contest, done anonymously, preferably. Otoh, I've never done the story survivor contest here, so I have no idea how a "winner" is selected (if that indeed) is the way it is set up. And I really don't care lol; I mean I'll do whatever Lauren comes up with (if I have the time to participate).

And I'm just throwing out ideas. My understanding from Lauren is that she will gather all the various brainstorming ideas and put together something like survivor, but appropriate to this forum.

We've all been 1-bombed. I have many times. Every single poem I've ever had in the "1" position on Lit's top list has within a day or two been 1-bombed into oblivion. People come here with various agendas and, for some, trying to play ego games and/or hurt people is a sick thrill for them, I guess. That's why I've totally ignored votes on my poems and stick to the comments I get. Even if they're negative (and they often have been mixed, not all good--my preference actually cause praise doesn't really tell me anything specific), I can still learn from them and (maybe) improve. Anyway, being "good" at poetry is very subjective, imo, because everyone's tastes are different. I don't think I'm near as "good" as Eve, for example, but I also know we have different styles of writing. Bottom line S_B, is I'm here to learn and improve my poetry like anyone else. That was my reason for joining the forum and it still is the reason I come here.

 

[Liar]

Put shortly, Survivor = most stories win.

But it's also about versatility, you have to write a minimum of X stories in every story category.

If this is indeed, a Suvivior for poems, then no, poems should not have to be "good". I agree with S_B there. Because whose definition of quality should be used? Unless it's mine, the contest is unfair, to me.

But they'd have to be correct. If one category is "Sonnet", it should damn well follow the thechnical rules of Sonnet. Although that would create controversy when it comes to some genres, like the ever so discussed and disputed Haiku.

So what to do, what to do?

My ideal Survivor contest for poetry would be just like the one for prose: Topical themes (maybe not all porn related though). And nothing else.

The prose Surivor contest does not force the authors to write in different prose forms. And oh yes there are prose forms. Style conventions, langage patterns, protagonist perspectives, etc.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Lauren you rock. I am so in. and Angeline, you are so different from Eve as a poet that it's difficult to compare you. You are both among my favorite poets here.