English National Identity Vanishing?

[SEVERUSMAX]

I'm not generally a fan of the American Spectator. I usually read it for amusement at the antics of the Extreme Right, much as one might read the Nation for the Far Left's perspective. However, the writer (Roger Scruton) of a particular article (will have to look up the link soon) regarding the possible loss and abolition of English national and cultural identity has an interesting and thought-provoking complaint. He seems to blame Labor and the Blair-Brown regimes, as well as the Eurocrats. For that reason, I've chosen to overlook his rather shameless attack on the French Revolution.

Anyway, what do actual English Litizens think of this issue? I'm particularly interested in opinions from Tatelou, Og, Mat, Sub Joe, the Earl, and gauche, for example. Just some names off the top of my head.

 

[neonlyte]

I've posted on this theme over the years.

England, as opposed to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, (and Yorkshire), has been re-shaping its cultural identity for generations. Despite a socialist government, it bears the traits of right-wing governance. It is naturally in denial about the cultural shift choosing to ignore or pay lip service to cultural divides whilst practising the very traits that reinforce the divide.

England is culturally racist. More so than most other European countries, yet has an accomplished 'slight-of-hand' that highlights the problem of cultural division whilst simultaneous doing very little to integrate culture diversion within the main stream of population.

Make no mistake... England (and most European countries) are ruled by an elite class of white Europeans. Some commentators have recognised, in the wake of Obama's win, the extent to which the English system of goverance would prevent an Obama like figure succeeding in English politics.

To give a small example: the Daily Mail newspaper is a right-wing propaganda news sheet that preaches the message of immigrants to England robbing the country of employment opportunities (for 'english' people') of being scroungers and living off the benefit system. Factually, its message is a distortion, immigrants claim less as a percentage of social security benefits than indigenous English and contibute more by working for low wages doing jobs deemed above the 'status' of English people. We just had a new shopping centre open 10 days ago in the town in Portugal where I choose to spend most of my time. It boasts an International Press Centre - given that I live in the communist heartland of Portugal, we don't get a lot of foreign press. The new IPC boasts one foreign language newspaper - the Daily Mail.

I know it is a crude example, but, whereever I travel around Europe, the Daily Mail is always the first foreign newspaper on the news stands. It arrives hours before the rest of the press to catch whatever English are travelling and indoctrinate them, however mildly, with its racist views.

The Daily Mail practices openly the attitude of a large majority of English people, most of whom are uninformed, or simply culturally racist in their beliefs.

My supermarket of choice in the UK - Waitrose - doesn't employ 'black people' - at least, not in any of the branches I've ever visited. Marks & Spencer, an internationally known brand, doesn't employ 'black people' other than to sweep the floors - at least, not in any of the branches I've ever visited. The British Museum - doesn't employ 'black people' - except to work the cafeteria and clean the toilets. Most banks - don't employ 'black people' at the counters - at least, not in any of the branches I've ever visited. Most business are manged by white people. Most managers and directors are men - the UK's brand of culturalism also excludes the sub-class of white women.

Most detained terrorist suspects are media labelled as 'non-English' - even if they were born in England - their detention is always headline news, their release, after investigation, is never headline news.

 

[rgraham666]

Shrugs.

No cultural identity lasts forever. What makes England's so special?

 

[3113]

Shrugs.

No cultural identity lasts forever. What makes England's so special?

Tea and crumpets?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Tea and crumpets?

Room temperature beer?

 

[3113]

Room temperature beer?

Cricket and rugby! Oh, and fish n' chips!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Tweed and fine shotguns.

 

[3113]

Tweed and fine shotguns.

Fox hunting. And bowler hats.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Fox hunting. And bowler hats.

Yeah! Bowlers and 'brollies.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I've posted on this theme over the years.

England, as opposed to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, (and Yorkshire), has been re-shaping its cultural identity for generations. Despite a socialist government, it bears the traits of right-wing governance. It is naturally in denial about the cultural shift choosing to ignore or pay lip service to cultural divides whilst practising the very traits that reinforce the divide.

England is culturally racist. More so than most other European countries, yet has an accomplished 'slight-of-hand' that highlights the problem of cultural division whilst simultaneous doing very little to integrate culture diversion within the main stream of population.

Make no mistake... England (and most European countries) are ruled by an elite class of white Europeans. Some commentators have recognised, in the wake of Obama's win, the extent to which the English system of goverance would prevent an Obama like figure succeeding in English politics.

To give a small example: the Daily Mail newspaper is a right-wing propaganda news sheet that preaches the message of immigrants to England robbing the country of employment opportunities (for 'english' people') of being scroungers and living off the benefit system. Factually, its message is a distortion, immigrants claim less as a percentage of social security benefits than indigenous English and contibute more by working for low wages doing jobs deemed above the 'status' of English people. We just had a new shopping centre open 10 days ago in the town in Portugal where I choose to spend most of my time. It boasts an International Press Centre - given that I live in the communist heartland of Portugal, we don't get a lot of foreign press. The new IPC boasts one foreign language newspaper - the Daily Mail.

I know it is a crude example, but, whereever I travel around Europe, the Daily Mail is always the first foreign newspaper on the news stands. It arrives hours before the rest of the press to catch whatever English are travelling and indoctrinate them, however mildly, with its racist views.

The Daily Mail practices openly the attitude of a large majority of English people, most of whom are uninformed, or simply culturally racist in their beliefs.

My supermarket of choice in the UK - Waitrose - doesn't employ 'black people' - at least, not in any of the branches I've ever visited. Marks & Spencer, an internationally known brand, doesn't employ 'black people' other than to sweep the floors - at least, not in any of the branches I've ever visited. The British Museum - doesn't employ 'black people' - except to work the cafeteria and clean the toilets. Most banks - don't employ 'black people' at the counters - at least, not in any of the branches I've ever visited. Most business are manged by white people. Most managers and directors are men - the UK's brand of culturalism also excludes the sub-class of white women.

Most detained terrorist suspects are media labelled as 'non-English' - even if they were born in England - their detention is always headline news, their release, after investigation, is never headline news.

Interesting counterpoint. Would be fascinating to see you debate Mr. Roger Scruton. Here I thought that segregation was illegal in your native country.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Interesting counterpoint. Would be fascinating to see you debate Mr. Roger Scruton. Here I thought that segregation was illegal in your native country.

'Illegal'? Lots of things are illegal, worldwide. What does that prove? It doesn't mean it still doesn't happen. That's the entire fallacy with the Democratic Party's obsession with legislation. Passing laws doesn't equal changing behavior.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

'Illegal'? Lots of things are illegal, worldwide. What does that prove? It doesn't mean it still doesn't happen. That's the entire fallacy with the Democratic Party's obsession with legislation. Passing laws doesn't equal changing behavior.

Yes, that's the problem, and why I am more a centrist than a liberal. Laws don't mean squat unless you bother to enforce them, which is why you should only pass those laws you're willing and able to enforce. Which is why things like prostitution, polygamy, and pot should be legal. (Not to mention that those three fall under consenting adults and the right to privacy....but I digress.)

 

[neonlyte]

'Illegal'? Lots of things are illegal, worldwide. What does that prove? It doesn't mean it still doesn't happen. That's the entire fallacy with the Democratic Party's obsession with legislation. Passing laws doesn't equal changing behavior.

Never did. Passing laws and practising hypocrasy is an English tradition

We've had sex equality laws for at least 30 years, possibly longer, but women are still paid on average 20% less than men doing the same job.

The most equal society in Europe is Norway, according to a recent survey.


Sev,
I'm not sure who Scruton is. Post that link if you're able. My views of England are conditioned by my living much of my life outside of England. I find it helps me see clearer the cultural divergences that are of interest to me. In Portugal, we also have cultural problems, not so prevalant in the younger generation. I find that encouraging.

 

[fifty5]

Room temperature beer?

NO! he shouted, cellar temperature beer.

Beer is served at near freezing point when it's not worth drinking as ale.

Chilled lager - or shandy - is a wonderful coolant, but it isn't - in the real sense of the word - proper ale. The same goes for stout and porter.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

NO! he shouted, cellar temperature beer.

Beer is served at near freezing point when it's not worth drinking as ale.

Chilled lager - or shandy - is a wonderful coolant, but it isn't - in the real sense of the word - proper ale. The same goes for stout and porter.

I stand corrected. Central heating is universal in the UK, now. In the old days the rooms were the same temperature as the cellar. Today, they're rather warmer. In fact, that probably has had a direct effect on the lost of the English national character. Whodda thunk?

 

[Sandy_Fox]

I stand corrected. Central heating is universal in the UK, now. In the old days the rooms were the same temperature as the cellar. Today, they're rather warmer. In fact, that probably has had a direct effect on the lost of the English national character. Whodda thunk?

Gotta love the Brits. They can make a single tray of ice cubes serve a room of 50 people and still have 4 left over.

 

[fifty5]

I stand corrected. Central heating is universal in the UK, now. In the old days the rooms were the same temperature as the cellar. Today, they're rather warmer. In fact, that probably has had a direct effect on the lost of the English national character. Whodda thunk?

Shit, VM, what are your sources? In the old days we had open fires and drafts. Now many English folk don't have cellars, just fridges. Hence Lager Louts.

Me, now, I have central heating AND a cellar, but pub cellars and real ale are still best (if only I could smoke while drinking it).

 

[fifty5]

Gotta love the Brits. They can make a single tray of ice cubes serve a room of 50 people and still have 4 left over.

Fuck that! For me, a pint of G&T starts with 5 ice cubes!

 

[3113]

Fuck that! For me, a pint of G&T starts with 5 ice cubes!

What about tea and crumpets?

 

[cantdog]

Yes, that's the problem, and why I am more a centrist than a liberal. Laws don't mean squat unless you bother to enforce them, which is why you should only pass those laws you're willing and able to enforce. Which is why things like prostitution, polygamy, and pot should be legal. (Not to mention that those three fall under consenting adults and the right to privacy....but I digress.)

Yes. The U.K. is somewhat of a nanny state, if you choose to see it that way. Brits who spend some years in the U.S. are especially sensitized to the effect.

 

[cantdog]

NO! he shouted, cellar temperature beer.

Beer is served at near freezing point when it's not worth drinking as ale.

Chilled lager - or shandy - is a wonderful coolant, but it isn't - in the real sense of the word - proper ale. The same goes for stout and porter.

Exactly. Lager is a foolish idea. Every one of the best beers are ales.

 

[fifty5]

What about tea and crumpets?

What about them?

To me, tea only goes with fish and chips. Other food needs other drinks: ale; wine; or for chocolate, brandy.

Crumpets can be any time!

Mind you, bread (or toast) and dripping meets that criterion too.

 

[Emerald_Dragon]

I guess I don't look at it like losing character so much as being forced to evolve. Societies are like everything else, they need to evolve or get left behind. There is nothing wrong with a national identity as long as it is flexible (tea, crumpets, football, cricket ect.).

America's identity has been the "melting pot" so cultural stuff is different from a national identity, sort of, does that make sense?

Hopefully we will evolve out of things like the whole "color" issue. People need to get a grip and become colorblind.

God knows if Americans can do it long enough to get a black president, anybody can!

 

[Liar]

Mind you, bread (or toast) and dripping meets that criterion too.

You say dripping as if it was a noun. Please elaborate.

 

[fifty5]

Yes. The U.K. is somewhat of a nanny state, if you choose to see it that way. Brits who spend some years in the U.S. are especially sensitized to the effect.

Personally, I go along with an American, Robert A Heinlein: prohibition laws that don't protect specific individuals are wrong. If it don't hurt someone, it ain't up to the government to legislate against it.

On the other hand, if it does, then it is the government's duty to legislate.

The problem is actually much, much more complicated than that, but it's a decent starting point. Heinlein's criterion was 'specific, identifiable individuals'. That has lot going for it.