Bali Bombers Executed

[ishtat]

It is reported this morning that the three Bali bombers have been shot. They were responsible and gloried in their murder of 202 people at Bali in 2002.

The dead included 88 Australians 38 Indonesians 28 Brits and 7 Americans plus some 20 other nationalities. Nearly all the dead were youngsters under 30.

Whatever one thinks of the sentence it is worth observing that an impoverished third world country of some 235 million, almost entirely Moslem people has subjected these men to their legal process and has not flinched from a final decision which may yet engender more suffering for Indonesia.

Bali is a beautiful place. I hope it continues to be so.

 

[pellso27]

Killing of terrorist is to be banned by Obama. It's planned and wiill be carried out as a peace offering.

 

[epiphany65]

It is reported this morning that the three Bali bombers have been shot. They were responsible and gloried in their murder of 202 people at Bali in 2002.

The dead included 88 Australians 38 Indonesians 28 Brits and 7 Americans plus some 20 other nationalities. Nearly all the dead were youngsters under 30.

Whatever one thinks of the sentence it is worth observing that an impoverished third world country of some 235 million, almost entirely Moslem people has subjected these men to their legal process and has not flinched from a final decision which may yet engender more suffering for Indonesia.

Bali is a beautiful place. I hope it continues to be so.

Not according to The Constitutional Court. The laws under which these men were found guilty were passed after the crimes were committed and applied retroactively, which was ruled unconstitutional.

 

[fifty5]

IMHO, capital punishment is always wrong.

Also, "due process" is a marker of civilised states.

The bottom line though is that an Islamic state punished those who cited Islam as justification for murder.

From where many think we are today, that's progress.

Of course we need more, but it's a step in the right direction. It's an additional proof that the crude "Islam = evil" is a fallacy.

 

[oggbashan]

Indonesia has taken a calculated risk that these bombers will not be honoured as martyrs despite some of their own Jihadist groups already claiming that they are.

It must have been a difficult decision: Execute and create martyrs, or keep alive in jail with the real possibility of hostage taking to free them.

Indonesia has sent a clear signal to the terrorists within their borders.

Og

 

[ishtat]

Not according to The Constitutional Court. The laws under which these men were found guilty were passed after the crimes were committed and applied retroactively, which was ruled unconstitutional.

No, the Constitutional Court made that decision in a separate albeit related case in a later ruling . These three bombers had already exausted all avenues of appeal including that to the Indonesian Supreme Court and in any event the opinion of the constitutional court never contemplated retrospectivity to this case. Therefore due process was observed.

 

[epiphany65]

No, the Constitutional Court made that decision in a separate albeit related case in a later ruling . These three bombers had already exausted all avenues of appeal including that to the Indonesian Supreme Court and in any event the opinion of the constitutional court never contemplated retrospectivity to this case. Therefore due process was observed.

Not according to what I've read:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=48810&d=24&m=7&y=2004&pix=world.jpg&category=World

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2394760.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/07/23/indonesia.terror/index.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/War-o...-bombers-lawyer/2005/06/19/1119119722744.html

 

[ishtat]

Not according to what I've read:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=48810&d=24&m=7&y=2004&pix=world.jpg&category=World

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2394760.htm

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/07/23/indonesia.terror/index.html

http://www.theage.com.au/news/War-o...-bombers-lawyer/2005/06/19/1119119722744.html

I will quote from the first article you have cited .First sentence third paragraph.

"The ruling (of the Constitutional Court)does not annul the verdict of the Bali bombers"

The next two articles say the same, the fourth is less certain. My previous comment was accurate.

 

[sutherngent985]

Well if you ask me its no loss. 3 crazies gone to what they are hoping is heaven and the 72 virgins (could they find 72 virgins?) they were promised. I was going to say I hope its hell but hell is too good for these assholes.

 

[starrkers]

I'd rather just have made sure they saw the setions of The Koran that expressly puts the killing of noncombatants in the no can do list and lands them in hell. No 72 virgins for these boys.
I'd also like to see the bastard that told them they would get those 72 virgins left in a room with them after they realised just how wrong his counsel was...

 

[ottohauser1977]

Personally, I have no qualms about executions. Europe was wrong to abolish the death penalty, one of the few social issues where I agree more with my fellow Americans than with my native Volk. Failure to execute scum only encourages more lawlessness and threatens public order. Not to mention that death is a condition that can never be escaped (despite claims about a certain man from Nazareth).

I don't particularly think that we should pay to feed such despicable people. Kill them and be done with it.

 

[cloudy]

Personally, I have no qualms about executions. Europe was wrong to abolish the death penalty, one of the few social issues where I agree more with my fellow Americans than with my native Volk. Failure to execute scum only encourages more lawlessness and threatens public order. Not to mention that death is a condition that can never be escaped (despite claims about a certain man from Nazareth).

I don't particularly think that we should pay to feed such despicable people. Kill them and be done with it.

And never mind the risk you run of executing innocent people...let god sort 'em out, right?

 

[ottohauser1977]

And never mind the risk you run of executing innocent people...let god sort 'em out, right?

Innocent people go to prison, too. No mistakes in criminal justice are reversible. Wrongly executed people can't be brought back, but then neither can lost years in prison be restored to the wrongly incarcerated. A society can't let the risk of making a mistake prevent it from punishing those it believes to be criminals, or we would have anarchy.

 

[Guest]

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSTRE4A72OX20081109

Bali bombers buried in emotional ceremonies

By Heri Retnowati

TENGGULUN, Indonesia (Reuters) - Three Indonesian militants executed on Sunday for the 2002 Bali bombings were buried by their families at ceremonies attended by thousands of supporters shouting "Allahu akbar" (God is greatest).

Some analysts had warned of a hardline backlash but the funerals went off relatively peacefully, despite some scuffles with police and reporters.

The three men from the militant group Jemaah Islamiah -- Imam Samudra, 38, Mukhlas, 48, and Amrozi, 46 -- were executed by firing squad on Nusakambangan island in central Java shortly after midnight, the attorney-general's office said.

The two explosions on Bali's Kuta strip on October 12, 2002 killed 202 people, including 88 Australians and 38 Indonesians.

"People need to be vigilant and there's a possibility of someone responding to the appeal of the three dead men but I don't think people should believe that there will automatically be some active terrorism," Sidney Jones, a security expert from the Brussels-based International Crisis Group, said.

article continues.

They've created triumphant martyrs.

 

[epiphany65]

I will quote from the first article you have cited .First sentence third paragraph.

"The ruling (of the Constitutional Court)does not annul the verdict of the Bali bombers"

The next two articles say the same, the fourth is less certain. My previous comment was accurate.

Yeah, I see that now. I had at first thought that the Constitutional Court could over-rule the previous rulings. Unfortunately not.

 

[epiphany65]

Personally, I have no qualms about executions. Europe was wrong to abolish the death penalty, one of the few social issues where I agree more with my fellow Americans than with my native Volk. Failure to execute scum only encourages more lawlessness and threatens public order. Not to mention that death is a condition that can never be escaped (despite claims about a certain man from Nazareth).

I don't particularly think that we should pay to feed such despicable people. Kill them and be done with it.

I know you never said this outright, but it actually costs less money to keep criminals in prison for the rest of their lives than to implement the death penalty:
http://users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html#Costs

The argument that killing them is cheaper is often used as one for capital punishment, but like many of the claims by death penalty advocates, it's just not true.

 

[oggbashan]

I know you never said this outright, but it actually costs less money to keep criminals in prison for the rest of their lives than to implement the death penalty:
http://users.rcn.com/mwood/deathpen.html#Costs

The argument that killing them is cheaper is often used as one for capital punishment, but like many of the claims by death penalty advocates, it's just not true.

It was cheaper in the UK.

The cost of appeals and the speed with which they were decided was much less than in any US state.

The cost of maintaining a lifer in prison was many times the cost of a swift execution.

I have problems with the reality of years on "Death Row". In the UK the maximum stay between sentence and execution was days - or weeks at most.

Og

 

[ottohauser1977]

It was cheaper in the UK.

The cost of appeals and the speed with which they were decided was much less than in any US state.

The cost of maintaining a lifer in prison was many times the cost of a swift execution.

I have problems with the reality of years on "Death Row". In the UK the maximum stay between sentence and execution was days - or weeks at most.

Og

As it should. Bullshit appeals have undercut the whole deterrence factor of the death penalty. In Germany, of course, we had the guillotine and the noose. Of the two, the noose is better because the guillotine has associations with the Nazi past. But that's just me. Too bad they scrapped capital punishment altogether. Some people just need to be killed.

Speaking of Nazis, the Nuremberg trials for me are the ultimate argument for the death penalty, because if those butchers didn't deserve death, then no one did.

 

[epiphany65]

Innocent people go to prison, too. No mistakes in criminal justice are reversible. Wrongly executed people can't be brought back, but then neither can lost years in prison be restored to the wrongly incarcerated. A society can't let the risk of making a mistake prevent it from punishing those it believes to be criminals, or we would have anarchy.

Here's a list of countries that don't have capital punishment. Take a look and tell me in which there is anarchy:

* Albania (2000)
* Andorra (1990)
* Angola (1992)
* Armenia (2003)
* Australia (1984)
* Austria (1950)
* Azerbaijan (1998)
* Belgium (1996)
* Bermuda (1999)
* Bhutan (2004)
* Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
* Bulgaria (1998)
* Cambodia (1989)
* Canada (1976)
* Cape Verde (1981)
* Colombia (1910)
* Cook Islands (2007)
* Costa Rica (1877)
* Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
* Croatia (1990)
* Cyprus (1983)
* Czech Republic (1990)
* Denmark (1933)
* Djibouti (1995)
* Dominican Republic (1966)
* East Timor (1999)
* Ecuador (1906)
* Estonia (1998)
* Finland (1949)
* France (1981)
* Georgia (1997)
* Germany (1949)
* Greece (1993)
* Guinea-Bissau (1993)
* Haiti (1987)
* Honduras (1956)
* Hungary (1990)
* Iceland (1928)
* Ireland (1990)
* Italy (1947)
* Kazakhstan (2007)
* Kiribati (1979)
* Liberia (2005)
* Liechtenstein (1987)
* Lithuania (1998)
* Luxembourg (1979)
* Macedonia (1991)
* Malta (1971)
* Marshall Islands (1986)
* Mauritius (1995)
* Mexico (2005)
* Micronesia (1986)
* Moldova (1995)
* Monaco (1962)
* Montenegro (2002)
* Mozambique (1990)
* Namibia (1990)
* Nepal (1990)
* Netherlands (1870)
* New Zealand (1961)
* Nicaragua (1979)
* Niue (n.a.)
* Norway (1905)
* Palau (n.a.)
* Panama (1903)
* Paraguay (1992)
* Poland (1997)
* Portugal (1867)
* Philippines (2006)
* Romania (1989)
* Rwanda (2007)
* Samoa (2004)
* San Marino (1848)
* São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
* Senegal (2004)
* Serbia (2002)
* Seychelles (1993)
* Slovak Republic (1990)
* Slovenia (1989)
* Solomon Islands (1966)
* South Africa (1995)
* Spain (1978)
* Sweden (1921)
* Switzerland (1942)
* Turkey (2002)
* Turkmenistan (1999)
* Tuvalu (1978)
* Ukraine (1999)
* United Kingdom (1973)
* Uruguay (1907)
* Uzbekistan (2008)
* Vanuatu (1980)
* Vatican City (1969)
* Venezuela (1863)

 

[ottohauser1977]

Here's a list of countries that don't have capital punishment. Take a look and tell me in which there is anarchy:

* Albania (2000)
* Andorra (1990)
* Angola (1992)
* Armenia (2003)
* Australia (1984)
* Austria (1950)
* Azerbaijan (1998)
* Belgium (1996)
* Bermuda (1999)
* Bhutan (2004)
* Bosnia-Herzegovina (1997)
* Bulgaria (1998)
* Cambodia (1989)
* Canada (1976)
* Cape Verde (1981)
* Colombia (1910)
* Cook Islands (2007)
* Costa Rica (1877)
* Côte d'Ivoire (2000)
* Croatia (1990)
* Cyprus (1983)
* Czech Republic (1990)
* Denmark (1933)
* Djibouti (1995)
* Dominican Republic (1966)
* East Timor (1999)
* Ecuador (1906)
* Estonia (1998)
* Finland (1949)
* France (1981)
* Georgia (1997)
* Germany (1949)
* Greece (1993)
* Guinea-Bissau (1993)
* Haiti (1987)
* Honduras (1956)
* Hungary (1990)
* Iceland (1928)
* Ireland (1990)
* Italy (1947)
* Kazakhstan (2007)
* Kiribati (1979)
* Liberia (2005)
* Liechtenstein (1987)
* Lithuania (1998)
* Luxembourg (1979)
* Macedonia (1991)
* Malta (1971)
* Marshall Islands (1986)
* Mauritius (1995)
* Mexico (2005)
* Micronesia (1986)
* Moldova (1995)
* Monaco (1962)
* Montenegro (2002)
* Mozambique (1990)
* Namibia (1990)
* Nepal (1990)
* Netherlands (1870)
* New Zealand (1961)
* Nicaragua (1979)
* Niue (n.a.)
* Norway (1905)
* Palau (n.a.)
* Panama (1903)
* Paraguay (1992)
* Poland (1997)
* Portugal (1867)
* Philippines (2006)
* Romania (1989)
* Rwanda (2007)
* Samoa (2004)
* San Marino (1848)
* São Tomé and Príncipe (1990)
* Senegal (2004)
* Serbia (2002)
* Seychelles (1993)
* Slovak Republic (1990)
* Slovenia (1989)
* Solomon Islands (1966)
* South Africa (1995)
* Spain (1978)
* Sweden (1921)
* Switzerland (1942)
* Turkey (2002)
* Turkmenistan (1999)
* Tuvalu (1978)
* Ukraine (1999)
* United Kingdom (1973)
* Uruguay (1907)
* Uzbekistan (2008)
* Vanuatu (1980)
* Vatican City (1969)
* Venezuela (1863)

I'm not saying that they have anarchy. I'm saying that if you apply the same logic to non-capital offenses, then you abolish prison and you end up with what Rome in the late Republic had: a constant problem with street crime.

 

[epiphany65]

I'm not saying that they have anarchy. I'm saying that if you apply the same logic to non-capital offenses, then you abolish prison and you end up with what Rome in the late Republic had: a constant problem with street crime.

But no one is talking about abolishing prisons. And the emotional, vengeful side of me would rather see some people in prison for the rest of their lives because I consider that a harsher sentence than a swift execution. I imagine after a few years in prison some of these guys would pray for death, but as King Solomon said: "You don't deserve death."

 

[rgraham666]

I'll reiterate my objections to capital punishment in order of precedence.

1. You can't fix mistakes.

2. It won't be carried out fairly.

3. It tends to be a political tool rather than a judicial one.

That's all.

 

[oggbashan]

* United Kingdom (1973)

As with most of the list, the United Kingdom retained capital punishment for some crimes later than that e.g. for treason and arson in a Royal Dockyard, along with some other crimes still covered by ancient legislation not repealed. I think sheep-stealing could still have had capital punishment as an option. Those anomalies have now been removed and there is no capital punishment at all in the UK since about 1999.

However I think there are still some weird laws still extant. It might be interesting to find out whether any offences could still attract transportation to the Colonies - not Australia - but banishment to South Georgia for example could be a real deterrent.

Og

 

[sutherngent985]

I don't necessarily agree with the death penalty, mainly due to the number of people exonerated in the past few years. However, if you are going to do it, this BS of doing it 'humanely' needs to stop....you are KILLING someone for gods sake. All we have done is make killing some nice and clean...it needs to be as gruesome as we can possibly make it. Bring back public execution, using crucifixion or some other form of gruesome torture/execution, and after the person is dead, leave the bodies out in public til they rot. It may not stop death penalty offenses, but I bet it will reduce them considerably. You want people to think 'the death penalty is something I would not want to go through' so, maybe, they wont do what they were planning.