Shame and Humiliation

[xssve]

This might interest some: Judge Sentences Porn Producer To 46 Months In PrisonPaul F. Little, AKA, "Max Hardcore" who specializes in extreme sex, humiliation/degradation type stuff was prosecuted by the Bush DOJ, and got four years.

Defense attorney Jeffrey Douglas said the conviction has reverberated throughout the adult entertainment industry and marks the first time prosecutors successfully have gone after a pornography producer while granting immunity to the distributor.

Until the videos were ruled by a jury to be obscene, Douglas said, Little had "no way of knowing the activity he was engaged in was criminal."

Commentary by Glenn Greenwald underscores the duplicity of the DOJ's process in prosecuting Little:

On Friday in Tampa, Florida, Paul F. Little was sentenced by a federal judge to 3 years and 10 months in a federal prison after being convicted of the grave and terrible crime of distributing pornography "over the Internet and through the mail" -- films featuring only consenting adults and distributed only to those consenting adults who chose to purchase them. Even though he lived and worked in California, the Bush DOJ dragged him to Tampa, Florida in order to try him under Tampa's "community standards," on the theory that his website used servers physically based in Central Florida and some of the films were sent to Tampa customers who purchased them.

These porn prosecutions are the by-product of the demands from Senate Republicans such as Orrin Hatch, who simultaneously argue that (a) the Threat of Muslim Terrorism is so grave and "transcendent" that we must dismantle our entire Constitutional system and turn ourselves into a lawless surveillance state in order to combat it, and (b) the FBI and DOJ should use their resources to prosecute American citizens who produce consensual adult pornography. The same Alberto Gonazles who decreed the Geneva Convention to be a quaint relic in order to legalize torture announced in 2005 that adult pornography prosecutions would be his "top priority" as Attorney General (at his confirmation hearing, Michael Mukasey assured Hatch he shares the same concerns about "mainstream, adult pornography" as Gonzales did).

I'm not even all that much into Little's stuff, he like to dress his actresses up like little girls, not my thing, but I do have friends who are into it - and they have girlfriends they treat with respect (or get their fucking balls handed to them), and he never actually forces anybody to do anything - the entire justification revolves around the notion that it's "degrading", i.e., consent was not enough of an issue to get the whole thing thrown out, which is the really disturbing part to me.

Hell, all sex is degrading to everybody if you spin it right: clumsy, messy, fraught with psychological and physiological (body/self-image) issues - this creates a highly arbitrary standard/precedent for prosecution.

 

[AllardChardon]

And I second that. Well done, Cory!

Having never participated in these kinds of scenarios, my curiosity is great regarding BDSM and the knowledge you shared really put things in perspective. It is not an area a person can explore without some trepidation...

 

[xssve]

And I second that. Well done, Cory!

Having never participated in these kinds of scenarios, my curiosity is great regarding BDSM and the knowledge you shared really put things in perspective. It is not an area a person can explore without some trepidation...

Ah, trepidation, another interesting word.

I've never done it myself, but one imagines that there is plenty of fodder for shame/humiliation in public play, purely as a matter of circumstance, without having to play it, or even if deliberately downplaying it.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

And I second that. Well done, Cory!

Having never participated in these kinds of scenarios, my curiosity is great regarding BDSM and the knowledge you shared really put things in perspective. It is not an area a person can explore without some trepidation...

To each his/her own trepidation. My own reaction is "You have got to be kidding! Thanx but no thanx."

 

[xssve]

To each his/her own trepidation. My own reaction is "You have got to be kidding! Thanx but no thanx."

You've already bitten the fruit baby, I say eat until the juice dribbles down your chin.

 

[Corylea]

I've never done it myself, but one imagines that there is plenty of fodder for shame/humiliation in public play, purely as a matter of circumstance, without having to play it, or even if deliberately downplaying it.

Hmm. I suppose there probably is for some people, since almost anything is true for some people. But one reason why we have play parties, why we do these things in a semi-public way, is to experience precisely the opposite of shame and humiliation.

Mainstream culture sees most of BDSM as weird and disgusting, but to those of us who engage in it, it's beautiful. One reason for playing at a party is so as to have witnesses who also believe that what we are doing is beautiful, and who provide a positive and affirming atmosphere, sometimes even with direct compliments.

A friend/ex-lover of mine, M, is charming sadist and a very good top, and when he flogs someone, he's so graceful that he looks as if he's dancing. Lots of us love to watch him work, and one day one of us actually verbalized what we were all feeling. He was astonished; he'd thought we were all there to watch the bottom, who's a very pretty girl. Nope, pretty girls are nice, but there are a lot of them; tops who are poetry in motion are rarer and are worth appreciating when one can. Once we made him believe us, he was quite happy to be so appreciated. Mainstream society tells him that beating people with whips is ugly; it takes his community to affirm his skills and grace and care.

I remember a scene of the type I called "sacrifice," where I was bottoming to the top I've just described. We started out in the basement of the house where the party was held, with a handful of our friends nearby. When the scene was over, M helped me off of the massage table where he'd been flogging me, and I was astonished to see that the basement was full of people. I must have been visibly surprised, because one of them said, "We heard all this lovely screaming from upstairs, and we had to come down to watch." Yes. Mainstream society would not have told me that it was lovely that I was willing to scream for love of this man, but my community did.

Pride. We play at parties partly because having our community present makes it easier to take pride in what we do, which is the very opposite of finding it shameful to play in front of others.


Thanks, Stella and Allard; you're sweet.

And Allard, there are lots of resources for newbies in the BDSM world and lots of people who enjoy taking newbies under their wing. (There are also a few people who tend to prey on newbies, but almost anyone can tell you who they are, so staying away from them is fairly easy, once you make a friend or two in the Scene.) Come on in, the water is fine.

 

[xssve]

Hmm. I suppose there probably is for some people, since almost anything is true for some people. But one reason why we have play parties, why we do these things in a semi-public way, is to experience precisely the opposite of shame and humiliation.

Sounds right, particularly in light of what you say later, about getting so deep into it you forget that there's even anybody else there.

That, to me, is what it's all about - I live so much in my head that that last thing I want to do when having sex is make it too cerebral - I wanna get out of my fucking head for a while.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Pride. We play at parties partly because having our community present makes it easier to take pride in what we do, which is the very opposite of finding it shameful to play in front of others.

Oh yeah. And it doesn't have to be about the scene itself-- the sex part of the scene. The chance to spend an entire weekend immersed in the culture, in the company of other people who share it-- priceless.

That's when I can (could, I haven't done this in about eight years) wear my leathers and know that people will read them correctly. That's when I can beckon a sub over and hand them an errand and know that I am not putting them to any trouble, but abetting them to do the thing they like to do the most. I can remember looking around the breakfast room at forty women, all of whom were proud to display their relationships, and content knowing that their relationships were going to be honored in this one place. My sub had brought my plate to the table and was on her knees next to my chair, waiting for me to put food into her mouth.

 

[Corylea]

That, to me, is what it's all about - I live so much in my head that that last thing I want to do when having sex is make it too cerebral - I wanna get out of my fucking head for a while.

That's one of the big reasons why most of the people I know do BDSM, and why many of my friends gravitate towards relatively intense scenes. In the scene I described in my previous post, being beaten until one is screaming full-out isn't fun, actually, but it gets me out of my head and into my body in a way that few things do. For awhile, I'm just a screaming body, and that's actually sort of restful, in its own peculiar way.

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's one of the big reasons why most of the people I know do BDSM, and why many of my friends gravitate towards relatively intense scenes. In the scene I described in my previous post, being beaten until one is screaming full-out isn't fun, actually, but it gets me out of my head and into my body in a way that few things do. For awhile, I'm just a screaming body, and that's actually sort of restful, in its own peculiar way.

I've never had the courage to go all the way like that!
But I've been in a dungeon where it was going on. A couple of people complained to the DM about how squicked it made them feel. The DM told them they could have their money back if they wanted to pack up and leave but that she wasn't going to ruin a hallmark moment.

 

[Corylea]

I've never had the courage to go all the way like that!

I can never do it for me; I can only do it because the top needs/wants it. But afterwards, when s/he's thanking me, I make sure to tell them that I got something out of it besides the emotional satisfaction of letting them have more of what they want than they usually get, so that things feel more balanced.

But I've been in a dungeon where it was going on. A couple of people complained to the DM about how squicked it made them feel. The DM told them they could have their money back if they wanted to pack up and leave but that she wasn't going to ruin a hallmark moment.

Good for the DM!

I've never seen a party or playspace that didn't have some sort of social-only space, where one could get away from scenes in progress if necessary. Did this dungeon not have that, or were people not making use of it and then complaining anyway?

 

[AllardChardon]

Loving, respectful BDSM. That I could try with the right people, which is exactly what you have been saying, Cory, and so well.

I just don't know whether I would want to start on top or bottom. I have the same trouble in sexual situations with me. Half of me wants to DOM and half wants to SUB. Perplexing.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Loving, respectful BDSM. That I could try with the right people, which is exactly what you have been saying, Cory, and so well.

I just don't know whether I would want to start on top or bottom. I have the same trouble in sexual situations with me. Half of me wants to DOM and half wants to SUB. Perplexing.

From what Stella describes in other circumstances, that isn't unusual. I believe the phrase went "Bottoms top when they learn how and tops bottom every chance they can get." It seems fair to this particular vanilla.

 

[Corylea]

Loving, respectful BDSM. That I could try with the right people,

I just don't know whether I would want to start on top or bottom. I have the same trouble in sexual situations with me. Half of me wants to DOM and half wants to SUB. Perplexing.

I hope you do try it; it would be a shame to have this part of yourself forever unexpressed.

I myself am what's called a "switch" -- someone who sometimes plays one role and sometimes the other -- so it's quite possible to have your cake and eat it, too.

Still, if you have inclinations in both directions, I recommend that you start as a bottom. In the olden days, EVERYone started as a bottom, even if they wanted to top, because it was thought that a person hadn't earned the right to do this to someone else until it had been done to them. Things aren't quite so draconian nowadays, but it is still true that one should always have experienced what one desires to do to others. If you're creating a symphony of sensations in your bottom, it helps to know what each note sounds like, so that you can produce the effect that you intend. If you'd never heard fingernails on a blackboard, you might not understand that it either didn't belong in your symphony or needed to be used judiciously, only when the effect it produces was intended.

Being told that it's a lot easier to take rhythmic blows than arhythmic ones or that nipple clamps hurt twice as much if the bottom is face down than they do if s/he is face up is nothing like knowing these things through having experienced them. And there are plenty of things that can't be put into words as easily as those two examples, things that a good top should know. I know a woman who's 100% top, but when she learns a new technique, she has her teacher do it to her for awhile, so that she knows what it is that she'll be doing to another person, and this is the path of the responsible top. But beyond experiencing a technique, one needs to experience the sense of vulnerability that comes from giving one's body and psyche into the hands of another, in order to treat a person properly when someone gives their body and psyche into your hands.

A lot of people have enjoyed the introduction to bottoming in this book: http://www.amazon.com/New-Bottoming...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225566774&sr=8-4 , which used to be subtitled "How to Get Terrible Things Done to You by Wonderful People," which I thought was cute, but for some reason they took it out.

Good luck!

 

[Stella_Omega]

I can never do it for me; I can only do it because the top needs/wants it. But afterwards, when s/he's thanking me, I make sure to tell them that I got something out of it besides the emotional satisfaction of letting them have more of what they want than they usually get, so that things feel more balanced.

Seriously. If my top said "I need this," I'd probably orgasm just from being able to say "yes!"

Good for the DM!

I've never seen a party or playspace that didn't have some sort of social-only space, where one could get away from scenes in progress if necessary. Did this dungeon not have that, or were people not making use of it and then complaining anyway?

They were complaining that all the noise was interrupting their scene and making their bottom nervous.

We had some community members that made a fetish, I'd say, out of the Safest of all possible Safety in sex, the most exhaustive of negotiations, and wanted a dungeon run like a library.

 

[AllardChardon]

Since I am the Dom in my relationship with my ex, and I pretty much run every thing around the house, The Boss, so to speak, I think it would be good for my sexual evolvement to take the role of a bottom to begin. I need a good flogging, I swear.

Fortunately, I can lose myself in my own sexuality pretty easily, so I would suppose, I will be a good botton for some lucky top. I love to scream from sexual excitement and moan and groan and all that stuff. It fuels my fire to make all those sounds. They reverberate inside me and add to my arousal.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

You've already bitten the fruit baby, I say eat until the juice dribbles down your chin.

As has been pointed out before, your presumptuousness, sir, is really quite appalling.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

i.e., consent was not enough of an issue to get the whole thing thrown out, which is the really disturbing part to me.

Me, too. We're talking about adults here. I know there are feminists (and others) who insist that the porn industry does nothing but degrade women, even if they "consent." The idea is, of course, their "consent" is really societally forced - i.e. they're doing it for the money, because they don't have any other means, because they've been on the street since daddy abused them and kicked them out at fifteen and are addicted to heroin and feeding a habit, etc. The list goes on. And I know there ARE these abuses in the industry. But there are lots of women who weren't abused as kids who choose to get into the business... and lots of women who were abused as children who don't.

Consent is consent. Adults are adults. And this decision sets a very, very scary precedent.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Me, too. We're talking about adults here. I know there are feminists (and others) who insist that the porn industry does nothing but degrade women, even if they "consent." The idea is, of course, their "consent" is really societally forced - i.e. they're doing it for the money, because they don't have any other means, because they've been on the street since daddy abused them and kicked them out at fifteen and are addicted to heroin and feeding a habit, etc. The list goes on. And I know there ARE these abuses in the industry. But there are lots of women who weren't abused as kids who choose to get into the business... and lots of women who were abused as children who don't.

Consent is consent. Adults are adults. And this decision sets a very, very scary precedent.

Somehow I don't see this standing on appeal . . . I hope!

 

[Corylea]

Seriously. If my top said "I need this," I'd probably orgasm just from being able to say "yes!"

*grin* I'd say you'd have no trouble finding tops, then.

They were complaining that all the noise was interrupting their scene and making their bottom nervous.

Ah. Yes, I can see how it could make their bottom nervous, especially if s/he was a relative newcomer.

We had some community members that made a fetish, I'd say, out of the Safest of all possible Safety in sex, the most exhaustive of negotiations, and wanted a dungeon run like a library.

*laugh* I love that last phrase! I'll be sure to steal it if I'm ever in a position to need it.

I forget in which book Pat Califia said something like, "We keep running around telling people about 'Safe, Sane, and Consensual,' and while that's all very well, the biggest appeal of BDSM isn't that it's safe."

Risk-Aware Consensual Kink seems to be catching on around here, which makes a lot more sense to me. I'm a big fan of cuttings -- both pitching and catching -- and any time you open the skin, someone is sure to tell you that this isn't safe. "Have you ever cut yourself shaving?" shuts most of these people up, though.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Since I am the Dom in my relationship with my ex, and I pretty much run every thing around the house, The Boss, so to speak, I think it would be good for my sexual evolvement to take the role of a bottom to begin. I need a good flogging, I swear.

Fortunately, I can lose myself in my own sexuality pretty easily, so I would suppose, I will be a good botton for some lucky top. I love to scream from sexual excitement and moan and groan and all that stuff. It fuels my fire to make all those sounds. They reverberate inside me and add to my arousal.

Some top will be lucky, indeed!

It's been remarked on before-- don't remember where-- how many people want to bottom at first-- as distinct from being a submissive, in many cases. I think it has a selfish element, the need to have someone's attention turned solely on you, trying to overload you with sensation and for no other reason thanto see if you can take it...

Yummy!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

"Have you ever cut yourself shaving?" shuts most of these people up, though.

Yes, I have, often. I can't say as thought it ever excited me, though. More of an annoyance than anything else.

 

[Corylea]

Yes, I have, often. I can't say as thought it ever excited me, though. More of an annoyance than anything else.

No matter how vanilla you claim to be, you're sexual enough to know that context is everything in such matters!

 

[AllardChardon]

Yes, the wondering if I can take it. I thought the same thing BEFORE I had kids, four of them, and my body survived very well even with 11 total years of breastfeeding. The body is quite resilient, indeed.

 

[Corylea]

how many people want to bottom at first-- as distinct from being a submissive, in many cases.

And this is one of my pet peeves. It seems as if Someone Somewhere decided that bottom = submissive, and it just doesn't. I've heard people refer to all bottoms as "subs" or claim that a bottom who didn't want to fetch drinks was a "bad sub." Um, maybe that person isn't a sub at all? Nah, can't be.

I've also seen people assume that if a sub is a sub, then any dom has a right to order them to do stuff. Um, no. I usually bottom (well, actually, I usually top, but I mean when I'm on that end of things), I rarely sub, but even when I do, it's a very, very personal thing -- I've decided to sub to THIS specific person who I like or love or who brings out that side of me; I'm not subbing to any asshole who wants to call himself/herself a dom.

Yo, remember consent, folks?

It reminds me of the whole thing from decades ago, when real lesbians did X, Y, or Z or refrained from doing A, B, or C. If I hate softball, I hate softball. And if I want to wear pink, I'll fucking wear pink. I'm amazed at how many non-mainstream folks want to enforce a new mainstream on their people.

(And Stella, this isn't directed at you; it's just that something you said reminded me of how OTHER people have been annoying around this issue.)