Who has the control?

[Ladythunder]

An interesting thought has occured to me

I was reading a book the other day which has led to me bringing it to this forum for pondering, I will include the quote at the end of my spiel just for shits and giggles.

Before hand though, to prevent the stepping on toes that happens occasionally, I will say that my question is directed mostly to those that view themselves as a D/s dynamic. Though all other dynamics have equal merits, I know very little about say Master/slave relationships, daddydoms, etc etc to venture an opnion

That said, I would love to hear from the others as well, to perhaps broaden my own understanding.

Anyway, the question is, in a D/s relationship, who has the control? Is it the Pyl or the pyl?

It is true that the Pyl seems to decide what should happen in a scene, but it is carefully planned out at some point with their pyl (perhaps at the begining when limits are set or even just before the scene. It doesn't matter the when the discussion happens, it is still the groundwork)

Not making much sense there, frankly the quote from the book I read said what I am asking the best, so perhaps I ought to move onto that instead;

In a high class whorehouse, a vanilla is asking a male submissive how a guy like him could get into such a lifestyle. The submissive says just lucky I guess, then expands

"I guess," he said, "what I like the best is the sense of being in control."

"Huh?"

"I know, pretty immature huh? The Lady says not to worry, "I'll outgrow it when I'm ready. She says it's not to bad as power complexes go. I just love being the one that runs the fuck."

"...Don't feel bad, it surprises everyone the first time; it is counterintuitive. You see Ken, no one in any sexual relationship has more control as the bottom in a D/s scene. The tops are there to concentrate on producing intense but very specific sensations in you; their own are their buisness. You're the complete center of attention, most of the time you're passive, you don't have to make any decisions and all you have to do is recieve surprise gifts, from a rigidly and specifically limited menu of choices. The one thing you can be certain of is that if you say the First Word-or make the First Grunt, if you happen to be gagged-whatever is happening to you will ease off a notch...and if you say the Second Word, it will cease instantly."

Lady Slings The Booze; Spider Robinson

Theres more of course, but that is the upshot.

So, my question stands, who has the control? Opinions? and, does the control change over the course of a relationship? Perhaps the sub has it in the begining and as trust and faith builds, it changes? Or not?

In my opinion, I think the above quote is accurate, but I see room for it to change over the course of time. After all, who doesn't have limits to work around? (crazy people don't, but they don't count ) Over time, limits stretch and or dissappear, I dream of being with someone long enough for all the limits except those of common sense to do that, but that would take a lifetime

and now I'm rambling...

 

[Hisscarlett]

I am in a 24/7 M/s relationship. I can only speak for our relationship, not for anyone else. I know that there are many who will disagree with my opinion, but it is just that, my opinion, based on my relationship with my Master.

In our relationship it is most definitely Master who is in control - He decides if/when/how/where we play. He also makes all the decisions about our day to day life.

If I want something I can ask for it; but I know not to expect to get it. In fact if I became insistent about something I know I would not get it.

Master has the control. I gave it to him the day I accepted his claim of me.

I think that where the power/control lies is dependant on the actual relationship. Is is a Master/slave or a Dom/sub? Is it a 24/7 life or a play/scene situation?

I have friends who are only D/s when they play and in those cases I think that the power does in many ways lie with the sub.

But when the relationship is a 24/7 M/s there is no question in my mind that it is the Master who calls the shots.

This is, of course, just my opinion based on my life. Everyone has their own truths.

(Bear in mind that I just got some (anonymous) feedback for one of my BDSM stories telling me that I was stupid if I thought for one moment any sub would let their Dom call them names and that I know nothing of BDSM. I am paraphrasing as the actual feedback was misspelt and very poorly written. They missed the point that it was not a sub but in fact a slave. They also missed the point that the names have power. I am not defending my story but am using the feedback to demonstrate that not everyone sees things in the same way, so the opinion I gave above is just mine.)

 

[Ladythunder]

And much appreciated smiles

As for myself, I have re-read 'my opinion' a couple times and have conclusively decided I don't know what I mean lol. I seem to have thought a number of things and not typed them (atypical of me)

anyways, I appreciate the peek into your personal dynamic and admit that there are certain paralells in my own opinion as well (most specifically the asking but knowing the request may or may not be ignored etc)

 

[Hisscarlett]

I know exactly what you mean about changing your mind about your opinions. I remember many times being determined about my thoughts and then when I thought further, or learnt more, or experienced something that my "set in stone" opinions changed dramatically.

Nowadays I just ask Master what my opinion is... I am, of course, kidding about that. I have my own opinions and am entitled to them but beyond that Master controls our lives. And I love it.

I look forward to reading the replies to this thread, thank you for starting what should be a very interesting thread.

 

[Zoots_owner]

In the short term, the PYL is in control, that's their job, isn't it?

The long-term answer is that both share control, because they have agreed to the parameters of the relationship. That agreement is paramount, and makes the relationship more like a constitutional monarchy than autocracy. The ability to leave the relationship also gives them a way in which their control is equal.

I don't ever think of the pyl as having a disproportionate amount of control. Safe words just aren't that broadly useful.

 

[Fauna]

I agree with Zoots_owner.

 

[Ladythunder]

I agree to an extent with Zoots_owner as well

however, my focus was not so much on the use of safewords, more on the definition of the abstract

the submissive lays out this is what s/he will and will not do and the dominant must play within those rules (stretching the horizons aside) therefore, it begs the question who really has the control?

now, the sub also chooses to give up that control to their dominant, who then leads them in whatever manner he or she chooses, but the baseline always begins with the sub or so it would appear anyways

(not sure I'm making any sense yet, I blame it on the lack of sugar in my coffee )

 

[madetotakeit]

I'll go ahead and offer up a salt shaker to pass around to those that read this because I am typing amidst the end of a period of sleep deprivation. Hopefully I won't cringe when I read this again after rest.

I think that in a D/s dynamic, the Pyl inherently has more control than the pyl. Yes there are limits that are adhered to, but I look at determining the hard ones as a form of negotiation and judging compatibility. If a Pyl has what I consider my hard limits on his want to do list, then I would not consider us a good match. Both parties are equal until the parameters have been set. At that point the control tips to the Pyl.

It will be at the discretion of the Pyl what things from the soft list will be pushed and when. The amount of play, type of play, and when it will occur will also be the Pyl's choice. As a pyl, I utilize safewords. I do not look at them as a way to control the scene but as a way to indicate where I am in the scene. I think that knowing the words are second nature allows for some pressure to be taken off the Pyl to concentrate so heavily on my verbal and physical clues. Even if I choose to let those words go, it will be because I recognize and trust the control that has been established.

I could not imagine exerting control over my Pyl. To me that goes against my definition of the D/s dynamic. The rules are meant to be skewed in favor of the Pyl. I would consider anything less to feel like role playing to me. Yes, details will change over time as with any relationship. The basic tenets of who is in charge however will always be the foundation.

 

[CutieMouse]

Both have control.

The control shows up as each stating their needs/wants/desires. The control shows up in choosing a compatible partner over a non-compatible partner. The control shows up in that each have the equal right to end things if they so choose.

The argument that the submissive [ultimately] holds all the cards is frequently floated about (almost as often as the "submission is a gift" theory), but at the end of the day it's just a relationship. A kinky relationship, but a relationship...

 

[SweetErika]

the submissive lays out this is what s/he will and will not do and the dominant must play within those rules (stretching the horizons aside) therefore, it begs the question who really has the control?

now, the sub also chooses to give up that control to their dominant, who then leads them in whatever manner he or she chooses, but the baseline always begins with the sub or so it would appear anyways

(not sure I'm making any sense yet, I blame it on the lack of sugar in my coffee )

Sort of, but not really.

I've always sought to understand my sub's likes, dislikes, soft and hard limits at any given time. I take control by actively seeking this info and deciding what I want to do with it.

I always have a choice when it comes to limits and such. I can choose to work within them, challenge them in a manner I deem fit, or disregard them. Because the choice lies with me, I'm in control. When you see a fence or a No Trespassing sign, do you assume you're not in control? Or do you assume you have control of your actions and can choose whether you want to obey/respect the given boundary, go sit on the fence or cross the line a bit, or disregard the limit and face the consequences of doing so?

To me, the book passage you quoted describes more of a Top/bottom relationship, where the bottom retains a fair amount of control, or even a Service Top/bottom relationship, where the Top specifically aims at pleasing the bottom and the bottom aims to get what s/he wants. It does not describe what most have/seek in a D/s or M/s relationship, where much of the goal is, and satisfaction comes from, the exchange of power (the pyl giving the PYL control, and the PYL deciding what to do with that, whether it's to keep it all or give the pyl power to do certain things). It doesn't seem like the book makes a distinction between the different types of relationships, and that's why it's muddled/confusing.

In my relationship, I have control. He has control over what I delegate to him, his own actions, his decision to give me control and whether or not he wants to end our relationship from his side. Even when we do what he wants/likes or don't do what he doesn't want/like, the power still resides with me because I make the decision based on what I feel is best. He can certainly act and react to the situation however he wants, but the final decision on what we do rests with me because that's what we've agreed. He has control, but he chooses to give it to me, and that's where his power lies, from my standpoint.

IOW, our relationship/interaction is nothing like the passage of the book you quoted. I have had interactions more like that (e.g., when I bottom, I usually retain most of the control; when I top someone I don't know well, I usually give them a lot of control), but I would never seek a D/s relationship like that. I pass on people who say they're submissives but really want a Top who's alright with them having most of the control and topping from the bottom - that's just not my cup of tea.

 

[Ladythunder]

One of the biggest things I have always admired about this lifestyle is the sheer diversity that can be found in it. The fact that people from all walks of life and all areas of interest both in the lifestyle and otherwise can find some area of common ground.

Anyways, after a nap and coffee with sugar;

It did occur to me that the scenario described in the book did sound more like what one might find within a casual play partner type relationship or perhaps what the paid services of a professional dominant might procure (again, I have no experience with either, so that might be WAY off base)

TBH, the concept of being so rigidly structured in a scene seems to me like the idea that you have to plan a script or something. The thrill in playing with my boy comes more from the knowledge that I can do what I want, how I want it and he is more than happy for me to do so. If I am planning an evening I do take into consideration his limits etc, but the underlying note is always me...

Perhaps it is fantasy v.s. reality which as we all know are two totally different things.

I still stand by the originally stated opinion, but will modify it a bit now that I have had a chance to think, process etc. The sub may hold a level of control in the initial outset of limits etc, but having stated where they would like play to fall, it is then up to their dominant to take charge and lead where they wish.

Gawd, do I sound as wishy washy as I feel all of a sudden as I look back on my previous posts??

Really I'm not, I think I am just clearing up poorly typed out thought processes...

anyway, I believe I have finally managed to type what I think, I will leave it at that and go back to enjoying responses because the way people think is the most interesting of all the puzzles I have ever found

 

[rida]

It all depended on the people involved in the dynamic, as I can see from my owns that the power balance and source is very different.

With Hubby, he gets a lot of enjoyment from my pleasure and as such play is often focused on my sensations. Ultimately thou, even my pleasure is an instrument of his own, and depending on his mood he will do as he pleases.
Because of his own preferences and limits, our play don't often push pain boundaries, but do press other power related one (being that we are married and have added this aspect in the last few years, the underlying structure of our relationship is complex). My power here lays in knowing that ultimately he value my enjoyment as much as his own. But his bigger power over me is that I would never ever leave him, no matter what.

With the Sadist is a totally different situation. Being that I am new to many things, soft limits and semi-hard ones are getting pushed almost constantly. The goal of our play is his own enjoyment and my body is the instrument. My pleasure is totally irrelevant. I have a safeword and I could walk away from a scene, but this power I have it only because he allows me to (he could easily overpower me physically). The relationship here is still very new and very narrow in its scope. My power, at the moment, lays in the fact that I could stop seeing him if I didn't got anything out of it.

 

[the_mgp]

vomit

 

[ecstaticsub]

The power I have as a pyl is to stay in the relationship or ask for my release. At the very beginning of the relationship we didn't sit down and negotiate limits. I had gotten to know him as a friend and cyberlover for a number of months before I offered him my submission so I knew what his values were. I knew him well enough to know that he wouldn't ask something of me that I wouldn't be willing to do. The only discussion about scenes is when and where we will meet.

However.....he is in love with me and he loves having sex with me. Sometimes these two facts along with my power to walk away make me feel like I have an uncomfortable amount of power in our relationship. Now of course, I also am in love with him and I love having sex with him, and enjoy us being together...but..

It come down to what CutieMouse said--it's a relationship. With all the usual pushes and pulls any relationship will have.

 

[Netzach]

Both have control.

The control shows up as each stating their needs/wants/desires. The control shows up in choosing a compatible partner over a non-compatible partner. The control shows up in that each have the equal right to end things if they so choose.

The argument that the submissive [ultimately] holds all the cards is frequently floated about (almost as often as the "submission is a gift" theory), but at the end of the day it's just a relationship. A kinky relationship, but a relationship...

Yes, pretty much. The control goes where it's decided mutually, maybe tacitly, but still mutually, where it will go.

 

[BiBunny]

Once, when this topic came up, someone (I think it was Marquis) said something to the effect of "The person who's really in control in a relationship is the one who's least invested and, therefore, more willing to leave if necessary."

That stuck with me. It's not a dom/sub thing here. You can say pyls have the power because they can choose to leave or not. You can say PYLs have the power because they are in control of the dynamic. But what it all boils down to is that the one who's more likely to walk than negotiate is the one in control.

It's an oversimplification, yes. But I think it's an accurate perception of the reality of interpersonal relationships.

 

[hapstan]

Once, when this topic came up, someone (I think it was Marquis) said something to the effect of "The person who's really in control in a relationship is the one who's least invested and, therefore, more willing to leave if necessary."

theres a lot in that. I've never bottomed to anyone (except you know, in the sense of suggesting things...) except for one person who while she'll play now and then won't have things more serious (she has a bloke) I lust after her hugely, and like her a lot, but its certainly not love, yet. and its quite possibly I'd do anything, partly cos she is amazing, but partly cos I feel a need to please her.

If she ever realises this I really am fucked!

But its had me wondering lately is it really just her, or is there just some seam in me that had before then never been untapped?
someone suggested to me (basically the only other person I'd have this chat face to face with) that i have a cheeky little session with a pro-domme, but that seemed an absurd idea. cos the person in control there is me, as i have the mastercard....

 

[Xelebes]

Who has the control is not the question, but rather how are the controls divided.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Ok, I've just scanned through the thread so apologies if I repeat somebody else.

To me, saying that a pyl has control over a PYL is like saying that a car control's its driver simply because it has needs and limits. A driver is limited by engine size, performance, fuel levels and maintenance etc but the fact remains that the car is there for the driver's convenience and can be used at will, taken wherever the driver wants to go and cared for to the degree that the driver deems necessary.

I am a slave but before Master and I took that step, I was his sub. Although I had certain limits and a safeword, he was very much in charge. I made the decision to give up my rights to control and to use power of veto over his decisions and that's really where my input as a decision maker ended.

I think that there are definitely relationships and situations where a pyl can be manipulative and exercise control in a backhanded fashion but for me, it undermines the whole dynamic. If I had felt the need or desire to do that, there would have been something not quite right with our relationship.

I do think trust is a big factor and it definitely was a huge factor in my becoming more submissive and service oriented, eventually taking the step of becoming Master's slave. At some point though, you just have to put your money where your mouth is and hope for the best.

 

[Netzach]

theres a lot in that. I've never bottomed to anyone (except you know, in the sense of suggesting things...) except for one person who while she'll play now and then won't have things more serious (she has a bloke) I lust after her hugely, and like her a lot, but its certainly not love, yet. and its quite possibly I'd do anything, partly cos she is amazing, but partly cos I feel a need to please her.

If she ever realises this I really am fucked!

But its had me wondering lately is it really just her, or is there just some seam in me that had before then never been untapped?
someone suggested to me (basically the only other person I'd have this chat face to face with) that i have a cheeky little session with a pro-domme, but that seemed an absurd idea. cos the person in control there is me, as i have the mastercard....

Sort of like the way you're in control at the MD's or the Dentist or the Auto Body guy. You can boss them around OR you can pay for their expertise, shut up, and enjoy the ride.

 

[minx1]

Once, when this topic came up, someone (I think it was Marquis) said something to the effect of "The person who's really in control in a relationship is the one who's least invested and, therefore, more willing to leave if necessary."

That stuck with me. It's not a dom/sub thing here. You can say pyls have the power because they can choose to leave or not. You can say PYLs have the power because they are in control of the dynamic. But what it all boils down to is that the one who's more likely to walk than negotiate is the one in control.

It's an oversimplification, yes. But I think it's an accurate perception of the reality of interpersonal relationships.

Who ever said it was spot on imho.

It really strikes a chord with me and as I tend to give as much as I can to someone I love and thats not just reserves for the man I serve. I have done it in all my relationships, often to my detriment.
Because I invest so much and because I give unconditionally, I am invariably the one who is not in the driving seat.

I recognise this and sometimes when I do and am having a bad time in a relationship, I even consider trying a different tact and holding back a little...but I'm not a manipulative person and I tend to be led by my heart.... so I don't.
I guess I just have to rely on having a SO who will not abuse the fact.

......that or be single. Which is also an option of course

 

[DrkSword]

Who's in control???

What an interesting question for anyone in this lifestyle. Let me begin by saying, this is completely subjective and everyone has their own definition.

IMHO, as a Dom in a D/s relationship, it is the ply that holds the key. No matter what level the relationship is, the ply sets limits and the Ply stays within them. As I have told my pet on several occasions, "you set the boundries and I decide how to take you there." My pet lets me know how far she want's to go in any situation and allows me to direct the journey.

Submission, to me, is in fact a gift. This is offered with trust, compassion, understanding and love. There are many things, too many to list here, that can go wrong. A Ply who is new at something can cause serious damage both mentally and physically. The ply can stop a scene at any time with a word or a look. The Ply has the responsibility to comply to ensure the well being of the ply.

The control is shared by each side. The ply must be honest about what they desire and the Ply must be honest about theirs. If there is anything not spoken about or not confirmed then there is the possibility of a misunderstanding or damage to the person.

This is my opinion and is how I see my part in my relationships. Not everyone has the same view and I am happy to see the different perspectives from so many.

 

[SubKekiLee]

What an interesting question for anyone in this lifestyle. Let me begin by saying, this is completely subjective and everyone has their own definition.

IMHO, as a Dom in a D/s relationship, it is the pyl that holds the key. No matter what level the relationship is, the pyl sets limits and the Pyl stays within them. As I have told my pet on several occasions, "you set the boundries and I decide how to take you there." My pet lets me know how far she want's to go in any situation and allows me to direct the journey.

Submission, to me, is in fact a gift. This is offered with trust, compassion, understanding and love. There are many things, too many to list here, that can go wrong. A Ply who is new at something can cause serious damage both mentally and physically. The pyl can stop a scene at any time with a word or a look. The Pyl has the responsibility to comply to ensure the well being of the pyl.

The control is shared by each side. The pyl must be honest about what they desire and the Pyl must be honest about theirs. If there is anything not spoken about or not confirmed then there is the possibility of a misunderstanding or damage to the person.

This is my opinion and is how I see my part in my relationships. Not everyone has the same view and I am happy to see the different perspectives from so many.

I have never until meeting DS known how I control this lifestyle and journey I am so thankful for his view on this matter, it is indeed true he has told me I need to tell him where I want to go and he will take me there.. I have experienced alot since being with him.. I have learned things about him and about myself it has been amazing.. I think there are 2 people who control the relationship as well.. I know I want to be there for him but I also know he doesnt want me to do things that I am only doing to make him happy... he says if you arent into it then I wont be..... I will bury that side of myself... I learned something new in the last visit we had... I know I am not a Maso.. but I want to learn how to take more for him.. but in the meantime I want him to be happy I dont want him to bury himself for the sake of me.. I want him to be completely fufilled at all times.. So then I have the control.. but there are times he has the control.. I think all relationships are give and take.. and one being in control.
this is just my opinion.. but it lets you see how perfect our relationship is.. fo us.. and how it works for us..

 

[lilylicious]

As someone new to all of this, I think it's beautiful to see how many different views there are on this subject. It's as if everyone carves out their place to fit their current needs and expectations.

 

[ataxia.girl]

Whoever is most willing to end the relationship if they don't get their way has the most control.