Question

[UnderYourSpell]

I have a question and it's hard to know where to go to ask it or how the phrase it without causing umbrage but her goes. I have been reading the poems about homosexuality and was wonder why one refers to himself as the 'bitch' when a bitch is definitely female? Surely two men whatever they are doing are still basicly men even though one is top and one is bottom. The term is also used as an insult as is cow you never see male names used if you say a man is a buck it wouldn't be seen as an insult, I don't know if I am putting this across properly but perhaps you can see the gist of what I am trying to say

 

[WickedEve]

I didn't think this would get an answer, or as many answers in the blog thread. People are looking for blog entries in the blog thread.
So, you should get answers here and I bet it's going to be an interesting discussion.

 

[WickedEve]

I have a question and it's hard to know where to go to ask it or how the phrase it without causing umbrage but her goes. I have been reading the poems about homosexuality and was wonder why one refers to himself as the 'bitch' when a bitch is definitely female? Surely two men whatever they are doing are still basicly men even though one is top and one is bottom. The term is also used as an insult as is cow you never see male names used if you say a man is a buck it wouldn't be seen as an insult, I don't know if I am putting this across properly but perhaps you can see the gist of what I am trying to say

I think bitch can be an attitude. Not just a name for a woman.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

bitch... as in "his bitch" or "her bitch" is often used in referring to a submissive

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Yes but why bitch ? Why does it have to be a female word for being submissive in homosexuality ? Oh sure when you get down to basics I guess no one is going give a fiddlers curse whether it is or not what I am on about is it being used between two men when they are obviously not into anything to do with women but still use a female word to describe each other. The same could be said for lesbians when one is described as butch.... why do you want anything male to be used in a female relationship. I will probably get my hand chopped off for this but in for a penny in for a pound why do lesbians use a vibrator shaped like a mans penis other than the fact that it fits?

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

Yes but why bitch ? Why does it have to be a female word for being submissive in homosexuality ?

Boy, you got a lot of questions... LOL
I can only really answer this one. It isn't just used in homosexuality. It can have a submissive connotation in any sexual pairing.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Yes but why bitch ? Why does it have to be a female word for being submissive in homosexuality ? Oh sure when you get down to basics I guess no one is going give a fiddlers curse whether it is or not what I am on about is it being used between two men when they are obviously not into anything to do with women but still use a female word to describe each other. The same could be said for lesbians when one is described as butch.... why do you want anything male to be used in a female relationship. I will probably get my hand chopped off for this but in for a penny in for a pound why do lesbians use a vibrator shaped like a mans penis other than the fact that it fits?

Muahahahaha! I love you UYS! You are so nice by trying not to hurt people sensibilities, while being an intelligent, inquisitive woman who wants answers to her questions!

Okay, I’m not “qualified” to discuss why straight guys call each other bitches, but gay guys (and “gay guys” please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong) use it as a “caring” pejorative, much like referring to someone as a “queen”. “Stop being such a bitch” or “you are such a queen” is referring to someone’s innate and sometimes flamboyant femininity.

As for lesbians, “butch” signifies that a woman has and identifies with certain male traits. Amy is “Soft Butch”. She FEELS much as a sensitive guy would feel. This is reflected in her actions, beliefs and how she relates to the kids and me. She is our “guy” (with empathy for PMS, no issues with leaving the toilet seat down and an intrinsic understanding of how the plumbing works.) For a lesbian Butch isn’t a pejorative term. It is much like you fondly looking at your SO and saying “God, you are SUCH a guy”. That would be only a very slight insult and he most likely would be a little proud of it. Amy is the same way. To her Butch is a semi-complement, where as to me (it should be no surprise that I am a “lipstick lesbian”) to be called Butch would be more of an insult and would mean that I was acting out of character. Sort of the inverse to calling a guy “sissy”.

As to why lesbians use vibrators shaped like a cock? Come on UYS – you’ve got the same plumbing as I do – why do you think? (actually we only have one that really looks like a cock [one of Amy’s strap-ons] that only gets used when Amy is feeling uber Butch).

Does that help sweetie?

 

[UnderYourSpell]

Well sort of it just seems to me if gays are men for men why bring a female name into it? It's like they are turning one of them into a woman which isn't what they are about at all. Well ok it's like they still need to have a female somewhere in the equation. You're right I don't want to upset anyone I just get ideas running through my brain and I will never find out if I don't ask! I notice it's only women answering too are there no gays or bis out there willing to put me right

 

[lorencino]

Well sort of it just seems to me if gays are men for men why bring a female name into it? It's like they are turning one of them into a woman which isn't what they are about at all. Well ok it's like they still need to have a female somewhere in the equation. You're right I don't want to upset anyone I just get ideas running through my brain and I will never find out if I don't ask! I notice it's only women answering too are there no gays or bis out there willing to put me right

This is your Token Man Reporting:

There is no doubt that you are onto something here that goes beyond he “terms of endearment” type of usage. “You nasty little fucker” can be construed as a term of endearment in the right circumstances but what a lot of these terms have in common is is the diminutive and the feminine. The diminutive gives a clue to how the feminine is functioning. The diminutive is common in insults as in "Your silly little schemes," for example. the “little” serves to trivialize and so does the feminine.

When men where secretaries in Victorian times it was a highly respected occupation. When women took it over it became so degraded that no man could feel comfortable occupying the position. A similar process is happening to the general practitioner today. Sixty years ago when most GPs were men, it was one of the most highly esteemed professional positions available. Now that a growing majority of GPs are women they have had to create the “specialty” of “Family Practicioner” to lend it enhanced stutus and save the much needed role from extinction on one hand and give over a lot of the functions to a new type of nursing professional.

No matter how much progress has actual been made in terms of gender equality, there is still a systemic predisposition to invalidate the full worth of women and by association those things associated with women. We have “sluts” but no equivalent term for men because women must obey and men are free to do as they please. That, to me, is a significant reason for the submissive to be depicted in feminized terms. Submissive, trivilized, infantilized the list of hierarchical characteristics goes on and on, but always the female is the lesser position.

The Witch and the Goddess, contradict this lessor position of women and points to a different status in a society far removed from our own. The patriarchal society is largely confined to the historical period concurrent with the existance of writing beginning just over 5,000 years ago. Pre-history as far as we can discern is characterized by matriarchal and egalitarian societies. During this period, the role of the male in fertilizing the female may not have been known. Thus the woman and the whole Goddess religious mythology revolved around the role of women in providing fertility. Men where useful as material providers and companions but did not dominate society as they began to do in historic times.

An interesting perspective suggests that with a level of sexual stamina greatly exceeding that of men, women are naturally promiscuous and the sexual predator that we currently assume is a quintissentially male characteristic. Historians who follow this line of reasoning suggest that starting with the first human settlements between 12,000 and 10,000 years ago it took between 5,000 to 6,000 years to bring the human female's rampant sexuality under control in order for the larger societies, that were required for the development of civilization, to be viable. The suggestion is that men's need and not women's needs are satified by monogomy.

I have to run off now, but one last thing. Don't expect that men liking men or women liking women is any more homogeneous a characteristic than male-female relationships. Even two specific people have shifting needs and roles in a relationship and there is nothing wrong with a man wanting to play the role of woman to another man. However I still think you are onto something deeply embedded in the current human psyche with the significance of this use of "bitch" and how our natures are modified by societal norms including those norms that operate at a subliminal level.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

'man playing the role of a woman to another man' that's the bit I can't get my head round and can't put into words what I mean either! I'm not saying it's wrong it just doesn't seem to gel somehow with me that an all male relationship feels the need to have one playing the female role (or with lesbians needing a woman to play the male role) when neither paring is about having the opposite sex in the relationship

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] one refers to himself as the 'bitch' when a bitch is definitely female? Surely two men whatever they are doing are still basicly men

I can only speculate. I imagine that some pairs of men select and replicate a model of man-woman relation. This seems to go hand in hand with some men being like a woman in a man body--they gesticulate and in general behave like (some) women in an exaggerated manner, they know everything about cosmetics, etc. But you know it.

 

[Angeline]

I can only speculate. I imagine that some pairs of men select and replicate a model of man-woman relation. This seems to go hand in hand with some men being like a woman in a man body--they gesticulate and in general behave like (some) women in an exaggerated manner, they know everything about cosmetics, etc. But you know it.

This is true! I used to work for a man that knew way more about cosmetics than me. Sometimes we'd go shopping together at lunch and he'd be enthralled at the Clinique counter. I'd say "Do you have to me more of a girl than I am?"

 

[Safe_Bet]

You are carrying it too far, hun. If Amy were a "sensitive guy”, I wouldn't be interested. We both prefer female/female sex, companionship, & love. Amy has many of the characteristics of a "guy", but that doesn't mean she "is" one or would become one if it were possible. Don't equate "traits" to "plumbing".

I prefer my lover to be strong and assertive while I am submissive and REALLY enjoy being hauled off to the bedroom. This works well cuz, as you know, Amy is about as toppy as they come. She gets the hottest when she makes love “to” me as opposed to “with” me.

That doesn’t mean that she isn’t feminine or wants to be a guy. It also doesn’t mean that I want to have sex with a guy. I guess you could say that our behaviors reflect the “real us' coming out, but the “real us” are still lesbian.

The same holds true for many gay men (here again correct me if I misspeak) there are REAL macho gay couples and there are M/"F" gay couples - they still both like men. You can't equate behavioral preferences & characteristics with gender identification and sexual preferences.

I guess that's why I completely disagree with Senna's speculation. They aren't replicating anything. They are being who and what they are; be that feminine or masculine.

 

[unpredictablebijou]

So much of gender identity and behavior is culturally defined, and we all know that cultural traditions are rarely rational.

UYS, you've got great questions. Unfortunately, there may not be complete answers to any of them. It might be better as a survey, like "what does the word 'bitch' mean to you personally?" You'll get tons of answers, none of them "wrong" or "right" but rather just personal points of view on the various words.

As to why women use dildos shaped like penises, well. I've never really had an attachment to pretending it was a real man or anything, but on the other hand, that ridge around the head is kinda neato, compared to the smooth bullet-style type.

I like both. ahem.

bj

 

[UnderYourSpell]

I can understand the traits bit but why oh why call the other member by the gender of the opposite sex? gay/bitch....lesbian/butch? i.e man/woman ...... woman/man. It's in the wording you see

 

[Safe_Bet]

I can understand the traits bit but why oh why call the other member by the gender of the opposite sex? gay/bitch....lesbian/butch? i.e man/woman ...... woman/man. It's in the wording you see

Okay hun, if it makes you happy I'll change. How would you like me to refer to Amy? Princess? Girly-Girl? Lady of the Manor?
(Before you answer, just be aware that she is going to kick my ass for calling her any of these!)



P.S. If it's any consolation, I call Amy a "Bitch" a WHOLE lot more often than I call her a butch!

 

[UnderYourSpell]

You pipe down and rest are you eating right?

 

[unpredictablebijou]

You pipe down and rest are you eating right?

"Pipe down" is an excellent phrase. I'm going to start using it more often at home.

 

[Senna Jawa]

I guess that's why I completely disagree with Senna's speculation.

You too are free to speculate.

 

[Safe_Bet]

You too are free to speculate.

You're right. I'm basing my speculation based upon almost daily exposure over the course of years. And Yours?

 

[Angeline]

You are carrying it too far, hun. If Amy were a "sensitive guy”, I wouldn't be interested. We both prefer female/female sex, companionship, & love. Amy has many of the characteristics of a "guy", but that doesn't mean she "is" one or would become one if it were possible. Don't equate "traits" to "plumbing".

I prefer my lover to be strong and assertive while I am submissive and REALLY enjoy being hauled off to the bedroom. This works well cuz, as you know, Amy is about as toppy as they come. She gets the hottest when she makes love “to” me as opposed to “with” me.

That doesn’t mean that she isn’t feminine or wants to be a guy. It also doesn’t mean that I want to have sex with a guy. I guess you could say that our behaviors reflect the “real us' coming out, but the “real us” are still lesbian.

The same holds true for many gay men (here again correct me if I misspeak) there are REAL macho gay couples and there are M/"F" gay couples - they still both like men. You can't equate behavioral preferences & characteristics with gender identification and sexual preferences.

I guess that's why I completely disagree with Senna's speculation. They aren't replicating anything. They are being who and what they are; be that feminine or masculine.

This is the comment you meant, huh?

My friend, the guy I worked with, is extremely girly and he'd be the first to agree with me saying so. He's very comfortable with who he is and how he is. We used to laugh about how he was more into makeup than me and I was no slouch back then. I don't see anything pejorative in that: he just is who he is and that's fine. He's also very smart and insightful, a wonderful writer. Not much of a poet, though, imho. And he's very loving with his lover. It's not about labels, not to me, but the truth is that he loves makeup. It's just part of who he is. And I found it funny--not in a laugh at him way, but in an ironic way if that makes sense.

 

[LadynStFreknBed]

okay, whenever I have heard "bitch" used in the contex of homosexuality, it's been a reference to submission. It's used the same way in heterosexual relationships. In hip hop, "bitch" refers to a female or to anything the person has command over, whether it's a woman or a thing.
Take the lines of a popular hip hop song (Let's play "Name That Tune."):

The 7H is not a fraud, call that bitch my bodyguard.
Call that bitch your bodyguard? Yeah, thats my bodyguard.
When we're out of jewelry, Young gon' do security

Here, he refers to his gun (7H) as a bitch.

Butch only refers to masculine characteristics in a lesbian. It's pointing to masculine qualities, so it only makes sense that it's a masculine term being used.
Bitch started as exclusively refering to female, but the meaning has become more general in taking on a submissive connotation.

 

[Senna Jawa]

You're right. I'm basing my speculation based upon almost daily exposure over the course of years. And Yours?

Same here. What exactly is your "speculation"? And what exactly is wrong with mine?

 

[unpredictablebijou]

oh my.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Yes but why bitch ? Why does it have to be a female word for being submissive in homosexuality ? Oh sure when you get down to basics I guess no one is going give a fiddlers curse whether it is or not what I am on about is it being used between two men when they are obviously not into anything to do with women but still use a female word to describe each other. The same could be said for lesbians when one is described as butch.... why do you want anything male to be used in a female relationship. I will probably get my hand chopped off for this but in for a penny in for a pound why do lesbians use a vibrator shaped like a mans penis other than the fact that it fits?

I can only speculate. I imagine that some pairs of men select and replicate a model of man-woman relation. This seems to go hand in hand with some men being like a woman in a man body--they gesticulate and in general behave like (some) women in an exaggerated manner, they know everything about cosmetics, etc. But you know it.

You are carrying it too far, hun. If Amy were a "sensitive guy”, I wouldn't be interested. We both prefer female/female sex, companionship, & love. Amy has many of the characteristics of a "guy", but that doesn't mean she "is" one or would become one if it were possible. Don't equate "traits" to "plumbing".

I prefer my lover to be strong and assertive while I am submissive and REALLY enjoy being hauled off to the bedroom. This works well cuz, as you know, Amy is about as toppy as they come. She gets the hottest when she makes love “to” me as opposed to “with” me.

That doesn’t mean that she isn’t feminine or wants to be a guy. It also doesn’t mean that I want to have sex with a guy. I guess you could say that our behaviors reflect the “real us' coming out, but the “real us” are still lesbian.

The same holds true for many gay men (here again correct me if I misspeak) there are REAL macho gay couples and there are M/"F" gay couples - they still both like men. You can't equate behavioral preferences & characteristics with gender identification and sexual preferences.

I guess that's why I completely disagree with Senna's speculation. They aren't replicating anything. They are being who and what they are; be that feminine or masculine.

You too are free to speculate.

You're right. I'm basing my speculation based upon almost daily exposure over the course of years. And Yours?

Same here. What exactly is your "speculation"? And what exactly is wrong with mine?

First of all allow me to correct something – I’m not speculating. I’m queer and, correct me if I’m wrong but you are not. I’ve been in a queer relationship for over 8 years. When I use my personal experiences and my daily interactions with numerous other gay and lesbian couples, I’m not “speculating”. You can be condescending as you like regarding my poetry because YOU know poetry much better than I do. Don’t try to do that with being queer because I know what it’s like to be queer much better than you do. Okay?

Now as to what is wrong with your speculation:

I am going to use two lesbian women as examples because that is what I am. Two gay men would be our exact mirror image. Strong “butch” woman reflected as an “effeminate” man. A feminine woman reflected as a masculine man. The women are geared to love women the men to love men. Same same only reversed.

“I imagine that some pairs of men select and replicate a model of man-woman relation. This seems to go hand in hand with some men being like a woman in a man body--they gesticulate and in general behave like (some) women in an exaggerated manner”

When I am with Amy (my “Butch” husband) we are not replicating anything (either consciously or subconsciously) we are being what our nature dictates. She is a strong, affirmative woman. She has many traits that are USUALLY attributed to men, but are by no means exclusive. I am a feminine woman. I have most of the traits that are usually, but are not exclusively attributed to women.

When we interact we are not trying to reproduce a conventional M/F relationship, we are solely being whom and what we are. Amy is a lesbian. That is a woman who loves women. She has no desire to be a man. She has no inclination to become a transsexual. She is not a man in a woman’s body. She may appear to have masculine traits and behaviors (including gestures and actions) but she is not endeavoring to act as (some) man. She is behaving exactly as God made her. There is no acting. There is no trying to copy a male female relationship. There is no DESIRE to do that. What does exist is a high comfort level where she can be who she really is without having to fit into what “normal” people expect from a woman. No acting. No replication. No behaving in an exaggerated manner. Just being what they REALLY are.

Certainly, there are “flaming” dykes who do in fact act macho and more manly than a man. But these are the exception (as flaming queens are the exception for gay men). Just because these are the people who have been selected as stereotypical queers doesn’t make it so, anymore than all old white guys are like Archie Bunker or all blondes are stupid.

So yes, Senna, I think your speculations were wrong and I now hope you agree.