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Sarah Palin

So she is anti-choice? What if the child is terminally ill in the womb and will kill the mother unless they abort it? Is she against emergency abortion?

I can see it now. Women gets raped. Injury during rape leads to child who is going to die before reaching full term. Women will die unless receiving abortion. Abortion is against the law. Women and fetus die. Paulin doesn't care, just smiles creepily like she always does.

Its not going to matter if they outlaw it, the doctors will just move underground and the price will go up. After 20 years crime rates will increase massively due to the amount of inadequately raised children committing crimes.
 
KLCK said:
So she is anti-choice? What if the child is terminally ill in the womb and will kill the mother unless they abort it? Is she against emergency abortion?

I can see it now. Women gets raped. Injury during rape leads to child who is going to die before reaching full term. Women will die unless receiving abortion. Abortion is against the law. Women and fetus die. Paulin doesn't care, just smiles creepily like she always does.

Its not going to matter if they outlaw it, the doctors will just move underground and the price will go up. After 20 years crime rates will increase massively due to the amount of inadequately raised children committing crimes.
Click to expand...

Might happen. But to be fair, to the pro-life crowd, abortion is itself a crime, a horrific genocide committed every day. They see it as a new Holocaust, and they speak of it that way. Hard to convince someone who sees Planned Parenthood as the equivalent of the Nazi Party.
 
Klck

like almost all 'pro life' persons, palin believes in terminating the fetus' life if there is immediate danger to the mother's life and no alternative way of saving it.

however she does not believe in rape and incest excepts as a great many of the 'moderate' pro life persons do.
 
SEVERUSMAX said:
Might happen. But to be fair, to the pro-life crowd, abortion is itself a crime, a horrific genocide committed every day. They see it as a new Holocaust, and they speak of it that way. Hard to convince someone who sees Planned Parenthood as the equivalent of the Nazi Party.
Click to expand...

Its a question of sentience. At what point does a fetus become sentient? If you abort it in the early term then it is not much worse than not using every last sperm. If you abort it in the late stages then I think its wrong seeing as many babies are born very early and are sentient.

Sayings its "a horrific genocide" and "a new holocaust" is scientifically unsound. What is terrible is forcing a raped women to bear the child of the rapist.

There are an awful lot of people who picket outside of abortion clinics only to take the daughters in through the back door the next day.

Outlawing it is not going to work, I can tell you that much. Its just going to result in a lot of women having mutilated genitals after trying to do it themselves or getting a butcher-job from a mob doctor.
 
KLCK said:
There are an awful lot of people who picket outside of abortion clinics only to take the daughters in through the back door the next day.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a manufactured line of propaganda. Can you name two?

Not that I'm in favor of picketing abortion clinics.
 
"The bums are yelling, 'Throw the bums out'"

GARRISON KEILLOR
SALON.COM
Sept. 10, 2008

So the Republicans have decided to run against themselves. The bums have tiptoed out the back door and circled around to the front and started yelling, "Throw the bums out!" They've been running Washington like a well-oiled machine to the point of inviting lobbyists into the back rooms to write the legislation, and now they are anti-establishment reformers dedicated to delivering us from themselves. And Mayor Giuliani is an advocate for small-town America. Bravo.

They are coming out for Small Efficient Government the very week that the feds are taking over Fannie and Freddie, those old cash cows, and in the course of a weekend 20 or 50 (or pick a number) billion go floating out the Treasury door. Hello? Do you see us out here? We are not fruit flies, we are voters, we can read and write, we didn't just fall off the coal truck.

It is a bold move on the Republicans' part -- forget about the past, it's only history, so write a new narrative and be who you want to be -- and if they succeed, I think I might declare myself a 24-year-old virgin named Lance and see what that might lead to. Paste a new face on my Facebook page, maybe become the Dauphin Louie the Thirty-Second, the rightful heir to the Throne of France, put on silk tights and pantaloons and a plumed hat and go on the sawdust circuit and sell souvenir hankies imprinted with the royal fleur-de-lis. They will cure neuralgia and gout and restore marital vigor. (my highlight my Coke-spew - sr)


Mr. McCain has decided to run as a former POW and a maverick, a maverick's maverick, rather than Mr. Bush's best friend, and that's understandable, but how can he not address the $3 trillion that got burned up in Iraq so far? It's real money, it could've paid for a lot of windmills, a high-speed rail line in Ohio, some serious R&D. The Chinese, who have avoided foreign wars for 50 years, are taking enormous leaps forward, investing in their economy, and we are falling behind. We're wasting our chances. The Republican culture of corruption in Washington hasn't helped.

And a former mayor of a town of 7,000 who hired a lobbyist to get $26 million in federal earmarks is now running against the old-boy network in Washington who gave her that money to build the teen rec center and other good things so she could keep taxes low in Wasilla. Stunning. And if you question her qualifications to be the leader of the free world, you are an elitist. This is a beautiful maneuver. I wish I had thought of it back in school when I was forced to subject myself to a final exam in higher algebra. I could have told Miss Mortenson, "I am a Christian and when you gave me a D, you only showed your contempt for the Lord and for the godly hardworking people from whom I have sprung, you elitist battle ax you."

In school, you couldn't get away with that garbage because the taxpayers know that if we don't uphold scholastic standards, we will wind up driving on badly designed bridges and go in for a tonsillectomy and come out missing our left lung, so we flunk the losers lest they gain power and hurt us, but in politics we bring forth phonies and love them to death.

I must say, it was fun having the Republicans in St. Paul and to see it all up close and firsthand. Security was, as one might expect, thin-lipped and gimlet-eyed, but once you got through it, you found the folks you went to high school with -- farm kids, jocks, the townies who ran the student council, the cheerleaders, some of the bullies -- and they are as cohesive now as they were back then, dedicated to school spirit, intolerant of outsiders, able to jump up and down and holler for something they don't actually believe. But oh Lord, what they brought forth this year. When you check the actuarial tables on a 72-year-old guy who's had three bouts with cancer, you guess you may be looking at the first woman president, a hustling Evangelical with ethics issues and a chip on her shoulder who, not counting Canada, has set foot outside the country once -- a trip to Germany, Iraq and Kuwait in 2007 to visit Alaskans in the armed service. And who listed a refueling stop in Ireland as a fourth country visited. She's like the Current Occupant but with big hair. If you want inexperience, there were better choices.
Click to expand...

We liberals are so much better at political humor. It's a shame we aren't this good at winning elections, but then I guess we wouldn't be funny.
 
Ah, Garrison, you once were truly great. Now you're just another dogmatic, mean-spirited hack parrotting the standard talking points of your particular club of power-and-control seekers. :(
 
SEVERUSMAX said:
Might happen. But to be fair, to the pro-life crowd, abortion is itself a crime, a horrific genocide committed every day. They see it as a new Holocaust, and they speak of it that way. Hard to convince someone who sees Planned Parenthood as the equivalent of the Nazi Party.
Click to expand...

What says I need to respect these unfounded beliefs? Everyone knows pious people swallow incredible nonsense, have a look at the news from Israel. And that's fine, they can certainly believe anything they like, so long as they do not impose their terms on the country as a whole. The Roe v. Wade decision does not require anyone to abort anything. With abortion legal, people with bizarre ideas are completely free to follow them. That's what is meant by choice.

Those same people are mortally offended by the existence of so many hundreds of millions of muslims, as well. Nevertheless, a law to forcibly convert every muslim on pain of death for the stubborn ones is not a good idea. To be fair.
 
KLCK said:
Sayings its "a horrific genocide" and "a new holocaust" is scientifically unsound.
Click to expand...

I think we should take the scientific argument out of it altogether. Having been pregnant now five times, I can tell you that even now (I'm 10 weeks, well within the normal time for termination) that what I'm carrying is alive - it's a baby. It couldn't live outside of my womb, no. But that doesn't mean it isn't a person.

I believe that, and I'm still pro-choice. Because I believe that there are times when killing is the right thing to do. It's not an easy choice - it never is - but sometimes it's better for everyone involved, including the baby.

I'm tired of arguing about when life begins. Make it a moot point. It's a baby, and if I choose abortion, I'm choosing to end its life. But as the mother in whose body that baby resides and on whom it depends, I have that right, as long as I make the choice responsibly. Pretending anything else is just rationalizing.
 
an interesting approach, selena, but not without problems.

you say, "OK, it's a person, but i take its life."

you give a reason "It was fathered during a rape."

the obvious reply is, "but it's innocent, and enttrely innocent of rape."

you say, "it's a horrible reminder of that evil peson and his act."

the obvious further reply: "suppose you happened to marry an abusive evil person, and before you coulld get divorced, there were two children that you give birth to. at time of the divorce, do you get to kill them?

===

it's hard to justify "I take the life of this person." defense of one's own life is a fairly narrow ground, and we are arguing the more extended grounds (e.g. rape, incest, serious illness; vast economic hardship.)

so we come to the obvious thing you mention: for a principle, you state, "IF a person resides in my body, dependent on me, I have a right to kill him for reasons that seem good to me."

well, why does place of residence matter? HOW does it justify? if you have your aged grandmother living in your house, dependent on you, do you get to kill her if she's a serious pain in the ass?

also, the principle is TOO STRONG, it licenses too much. according to it, you can kill the "baby" the day before it's born. let's assume as above, it's a rapists baby and it's taken almost nine months to decide.

---

so you see, these probs are why we 'pro choice' foks just say, until it's born [or capable of independent life w/o extraodinary support], it aint a person; and untill at least month 7, there is no "baby."
 
Pure said:
an interesting approach, selena, but not without problems.

you say, "OK, it's a person, but i take its life."

you give a reason "It was fathered during a rape."
Click to expand...

As far as I'm concerned (and aren't the conservatives glad I'm not in there making policy? :devil: ) until that fetus can survive outside the womb (I did say "responsible" choice :) ), mothers should have carte blanche. No reasons necessary. The place of residence matters because grandma isn't living inside my left leg. I have a choice to take care of her, abandon her, give her over to the state, whatever. Not so with a fetus. It either continues until birthed, or it doesn't. It's a choice only I, as the woman whose body it resides in, can make.

If I had a parasite living in my body, I'd get to decide whether or not to keep it. Tapeworms can't live without a host. Babies can't life without one either. And I don't care how horrified anyone is about comparing tapeworms to humans. Life is life, period, whether it's a carrot, a tapeworm, or a fetus. They can all die, and there are no guarantees. The only promise life ever makes is death.

From a mortal perspective, birth and dying are seen as opposites. In truth, they’re not polarized but rather coupled, just as life and death are coupled. It is difficult for human beings to accept, but from a larger perspective, the value of a human is not based on chronological age or time spent. What the heroic medical profession (and the religious right) refuse to accept is that the promise of creation is only death, not life.

In creation, shape and form are given to something that will die, and mothers always grieve at birth the dying of their child - whether the child never takes a breath, or if the child lives long after the mother.
 
Selena_Kitt said:
As far as I'm concerned (and aren't the conservatives glad I'm not in there making policy? :devil: ) until that fetus can survive outside the womb (I did say "responsible" choice :) ), mothers should have carte blanche. No reasons necessary. The place of residence matters because grandma isn't living inside my left leg.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Even a wanted pregnancy requires that the mother accept risks to her health and even her life. Those who wish to criminalize abortion are not just saying that fetuses have rights; they are saying that fetuses have a right that the women carrying them do NOT: the right to have their lives protected at the expense of someone else's (the mother's) health and possibly life. It's significant that the word "innocent" always comes into play in pro-life rhetoric. The fetus is innocent. The woman or girl carrying the fetus has been corrupted by the act of sex; that she may have been raped doesn't enter into it, for the same reason that rape is considered the fault of the woman in many patriarchal, fundamentalist religions.
 
Damn People!

I'm not suppose to leave my humor thread but I just want to say.

Leave the poor woman alone. You don't like her or her polices? Fine, we get it. Enough is Enough already.

She's the VP candidate and I might add, has my vote.

Talk about the other VP candidate and all his pros & cons. There must be a lot since he has been in the Senate for thirty yrs. If he is this great choice for VP, why did he do so poorly in the last three primaries?

Sorry to interrupt your Palin is a bitch thread but I kinda like the bitch. :)

I need to stay away from these political thread.
DG
 
"... Life is life, period, whether it's a carrot, a tapeworm, or a fetus. .."
Click to expand...

~~~

You, of course, have full rights to believe whatever you wish as an individual who's rights to believe and express those belief's are protected in this nation by our constitution.

But when you come on a forum, among people with similar or dissimilar positions, you open your ideas to discussion and criticism.

A human life, from the moment of conception, becomes a protected entity, with an innate, self evident and unalienable right to that life. A tapeworm or a carrot, has no such innate right.

There are those who know and it used to be the law of the land, that if you, with pre meditation, take an innocent human life, you are subject to the full extent of the law.

Every murdered child should be considered a victim and the perpetrator should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

It is called justice and mankind has struggled throughout our history to codify and protect human life.

I confront your ideas, not you, but all who hold human life in such low regard.

Amicus...
 
amicus said:
~~~

You, of course, have full rights to believe whatever you wish as an individual who's rights to believe and express those belief's are protected in this nation by our constitution.

But when you come on a forum, among people with similar or dissimilar positions, you open your ideas to discussion and criticism.

A human life, from the moment of conception, becomes a protected entity, with an innate, self evident and unalienable right to that life. A tapeworm or a carrot, has no such innate right.

There are those who know and it used to be the law of the land, that if you, with pre meditation, take an innocent human life, you are subject to the full extent of the law.

Every murdered child should be considered a victim and the perpetrator should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

It is called justice and mankind has struggled throughout our history to codify and protect human life.

I confront your ideas, not you, but all who hold human life in such low regard.

Amicus...
Click to expand...

Hypocrite.

You, yourself, only hold white male life in high regard.
 
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