Penetration and D/s

[ownedsubgal]

don't ask what has caused my mind to go here today, but it's something i've felt strongly for a while now.

in sex, you have the penetrator, and the penetratee. in my view, the penetrator is the dominant partner, and the penetree the submissive partner...even if only for that brief moment of penetration. this is not about D/s philosophy or relationships, but more about the mechanics of sex.

once a person is penetrated, whether it's through force or allowance or even at their command, they are trusting (or fervently hoping, or naively confident and assured) someone to not completely ravage and abuse their tender delicate little hole. for those moments, they are at the mercy of that other person's passion, drive, self-control. there is a very basic, primal thing about penetration, it's more instinct than anything else...i would guess (and yes it is just a guess) that even the most submissive of men would momentarily be lost and consumed in the procreative drive while engaged in the act of penetrating another.

this also explains my views on beastiality: some human goes and pokes a female sheep, cow, pig, he's a sick animal abusing freak, put him under the jail for the next 10 yrs or so. some human gets poked by a horse, dog, donkey...as long as the animal wasn't trussed up and forced, i'm cool with it. rock on with your perv self. that is because imv, during the act the penetrator is in control to some degree, and the penetratee, to some degree...helpless.

online, i've run across some Dommes who claim not to ever allow themselves to be penetrated, for this reason. they feel it will take away something from their dominance, however temporarily. it is also why i could never imagine myself so much as placing a finger in a man's bum...even if it were under gunpoint and at his command, i'd feel that i'd be in some small way dominating him with my narrow little digit.

so what say you good folks? do you believe penetration has anything to do with dominance and submission? i'm especially interested in hearing opposing viewpoints, those who can reconcile being Dominant, and yet being penetrated...or being submissive, and yet being the penetrator.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Think it all comes down to mindset. The one doing the penetrating can also be injured from and/or during the act of penetration. I also think it is possible to not just view it as being penetrated, but to counter the popular perception as the male member being enveloped/swallowed/smothered by whatever it is entering. Same goes for the D/s aspect...it comes down to mindset more than action.

Catalina

 

[ecstaticsub]

What perfect timing, my PYL and I were just talking about this. We were talking about buttplugs (which he has me wear often) I jokingly said he should try using one for a few hours to see what it felt like. He told me no, he was the penetrator, I was the penetratee and that's the way it was. For the most part I agree with you.

The only exception may be that I can see why a man recieving a blowjob could feel submissive. A mouth is not a tender,delicate little hole. It can be quite a dangerous place for a penetrator to place his dick. A woman giving oral can do so in a Dominating way.

 

[YourCaptor]

don't ask what has caused my mind to go here today, but it's something i've felt strongly for a while now.

in sex, you have the penetrator, and the penetratee. in my view, the penetrator is the dominant partner, and the penetree the submissive partner...even if only for that brief moment of penetration. this is not about D/s philosophy or relationships, but more about the mechanics of sex.

once a person is penetrated, whether it's through force or allowance or even at their command, they are trusting (or fervently hoping, or naively confident and assured) someone to not completely ravage and abuse their tender delicate little hole. for those moments, they are at the mercy of that other person's passion, drive, self-control. there is a very basic, primal thing about penetration, it's more instinct than anything else...i would guess (and yes it is just a guess) that even the most submissive of men would momentarily be lost and consumed in the procreative drive while engaged in the act of penetrating another.

this also explains my views on beastiality: some human goes and pokes a female sheep, cow, pig, he's a sick animal abusing freak, put him under the jail for the next 10 yrs or so. some human gets poked by a horse, dog, donkey...as long as the animal wasn't trussed up and forced, i'm cool with it. rock on with your perv self. that is because imv, during the act the penetrator is in control to some degree, and the penetratee, to some degree...helpless.

online, i've run across some Dommes who claim not to ever allow themselves to be penetrated, for this reason. they feel it will take away something from their dominance, however temporarily. it is also why i could never imagine myself so much as placing a finger in a man's bum...even if it were under gunpoint and at his command, i'd feel that i'd be in some small way dominating him with my narrow little digit.

so what say you good folks? do you believe penetration has anything to do with dominance and submission? i'm especially interested in hearing opposing viewpoints, those who can reconcile being Dominant, and yet being penetrated...or being submissive, and yet being the penetrator.

No dominance and submission don’t work that way.

Just look at dogs, bitches can often be seen humping males, they can’t penetrate, but the dominance is established.

A clear example, amongst humans, say a buffed up woman beats some guy to a bloody, crying pulp and then gets on top of him and rides him. There is no way that guy is in charge at all, he’s getting raped.

However a dick or a strap on helps a lot when doing the dominance thing.

What it comes down to is who is fucking who.

When your finger ends up in someones ass and they are domineering you will feel like you are getting fucked.

 

[Netzach]

I keep thinking about this really shy sweet butch girl who had this huuuuge crush on me and who really had iffy self-esteem on whether I liked her, she thought I had the hots for her wife and just kind of pretended to think she was cute, anyway...

at this party I knew she was packing a big dick, she was very in "boy" role.

She wound up tied to a massage table and completely utterly nonplussed and confused and amazed when I climbed on her dick and rode her.

Definitely I was being penetrated (huge cock!)

And definitely I was in charge. She felt it, I felt it.


Other than that instance, when I get fucked I either go into "consumer" mode. That whole, mythic, devouring cunt thing is where my head goes -

or I'm fucking for intimacy and I really don't give a shit if I don't feel in charge because chances are the other person doesn't either at that particular time, it's not high on the list of concerns, it's really that "melt into you" thing. The men I'm with are emotionally mine, and emotionally overcome and vulnerable and raw and naked and sweat covered as they hump and grind toward that exquisite moment of complete vulnerability and I'm soaked with their sweat and making it happen for them

If that's not a power trip, I don't know what is. I think orgasm is a particularly non-empowered moment if you want to pick something to focus on.

I don't get off from penetration though, and I expect to get off and like to get off, so most of the penetration I do is for that last reason with people I'm emotionally invested in. If I came that way I'd probably feel differently about it.

 

[Netzach]

When your finger ends up in someones ass and they are domineering you will feel like you are getting fucked.

This is a really good way of putting it.

 

[Netzach]

What perfect timing, my PYL and I were just talking about this. We were talking about buttplugs (which he has me wear often) I jokingly said he should try using one for a few hours to see what it felt like. He told me no, he was the penetrator, I was the penetratee and that's the way it was. For the most part I agree with you.

The only exception may be that I can see why a man recieving a blowjob could feel submissive. A mouth is not a tender,delicate little hole. It can be quite a dangerous place for a penetrator to place his dick. A woman giving oral can do so in a Dominating way.

I don't see a guy putting a plug in his own ass as any more submissive than a guy jacking his dick. If he doesn't like it, more power to him, it's not something I'm moved to do in my masturbatory frenzy either - but it's just preference.

 

[ownedsubgal]

What perfect timing, my PYL and I were just talking about this. We were talking about buttplugs (which he has me wear often) I jokingly said he should try using one for a few hours to see what it felt like. He told me no, he was the penetrator, I was the penetratee and that's the way it was. For the most part I agree with you.

The only exception may be that I can see why a man recieving a blowjob could feel submissive. A mouth is not a tender,delicate little hole. It can be quite a dangerous place for a penetrator to place his dick. A woman giving oral can do so in a Dominating way.

i do agree with you that perhaps oral can be an exception...a dominant person could give oral to a man in a very dominant manner...i.e. guy lying back, bound up and immobile, her on top just playing with him. but in that situation, it's difficult to really define it as true penetration, as the cock is doing nothing, in control of nothing.

however i disagree about the idea of a mouth being this potentially hazardous zone for a cock. true, a suckee with ill intent and given free reign of motion could bite and injure the heck out of a penis. but by taking such an action, you are facing the risk of receiving some pretty hellacious and violent male testosterone-driven retribution. i know that if a female were to seriously bite my Master's cock, his first reflex would be to knock her out flat with a solid punch to the side of the head. his second reflex would be "damn, ouch" that's just him, fight back first, feel the pain later. i'm guessing other men with any significant levels of testosterone would react similarly. so yeah, go ahead and bite if you dare.

 

[kittenartist]

i would guess (and yes it is just a guess) that even the most submissive of men would momentarily be lost and consumed in the procreative drive while engaged in the act of penetrating another.

I just want to focus on this one statement. My boy has never been lost/consumed by instinct of procreation while penetrating me... In fact, I would say he is more aware of his need to please and pleasure. Although, when we do the traditional sex thing it is more of an intimate act than a D/s act, he is still so submissive. More so maybe as love fuels his submission. He knows that, for various medical and emotional reasons, if he "lost control" we could stop having that kind of sex for a long time. So he is respectful, careful, and incredibly sweet in those moments. To make love to me is his privilege and honor, not his right. And he does not need a heavy D/s overtone to remember that he is the one who is owned in our relationship.

From my point of view... He is doing exactly what I want, in exactly the way I want, as often as I require. Me getting everything I want is kinda the foundation of my drive as a Domme. So, him penetrating me does not give me the least bit of pause. It just gives me multiple orgasms.

 

[ownedsubgal]

What it comes down to is who is fucking who.

When your finger ends up in someones ass and they are domineering you will feel like you are getting fucked.

this i just don't get. i don't care how domineering, authorative, controlling, aggressive, forceful, etc. a person is, or if they are armed with an ak47, a machete blade and a mean streak as long as the mississippi, if my finger is in their bum, in my mind they have become "b*tch."

 

[Netzach]

this i just don't get. i don't care how domineering, authorative, controlling, aggressive, forceful, etc. a person is, or if they are armed with an ak47, a machete blade and a mean streak as long as the mississippi, if my finger is in their bum, in my mind they have become "b*tch."

You do realize at some point they probably had their temperature taken?

That's YOUR right, but it's YOUR projection. For some people stuff up there feels good, end story. No drama, no identity crisis. Just like deep tissue massage or shaving with electric versus single edge or vice versa or sitting through an opera or sitting through Dark Knight (zzz) or not. I've had enough boringly UNsubmissive men in my life who are obsessed with having things in their ass to know there's no correalation. Bossy arrogant T-soaked pricks in fact.

 

[Netzach]

I can see how these threads always go though. The 2 or 3 Dominant women that can stand a mixed community will fall out of the woodwork say "well this is how it is for me and why I like it" and basically "but I don't understand HOW YOU EXIST!!" will be the answer.

It's true. I'm making all this crap up and I don't exist, merely a bored programmer's project.

 

[midwestyankee]

I can see how these threads always go though. The 2 or 3 Dominant women that can stand a mixed community will fall out of the woodwork say "well this is how it is for me and why I like it" and basically "but I don't understand HOW YOU EXIST!!" will be the answer.

It's true. I'm making all this crap up and I don't exist, merely a bored programmer's project.

He's a helluva programmer.

 

[Netzach]

He's a helluva programmer.

TY - ok, live Dominant male. Question: is there a methodology and an attitude that a woman could bring to "getting fucked" that does not satisfy your dominance, and would not even if you could beat the living crap out of her with impunity because - it's HER. HER not-submissive coming to the table.

I know I've fucked men and rejected them based on a lack of submissive nature and personality. The "you can take whatever you want" trope doesn't work - you can probably subjugate someone, but you're not getting what you want if it's NOT THERE.

ETA - Wait. Did I just ask you to validate me?

I did, damn. Well, it's what happens when you can't possibly validate yourself to some people. Crazy train, I tell you.

 

[Netzach]

The men I'm with are emotionally mine, and emotionally overcome and vulnerable and raw and naked and sweat covered as they hump and grind toward that exquisite moment of complete vulnerability and I'm soaked with their sweat and making it happen for them

If that's not a power trip, I don't know what is. I think orgasm is a particularly non-empowered moment if you want to pick something to focus on

I'm quoting myself, because I think I accurately explained it. While everyone in M/f relationships can now crowd around, watch me fuck and say "but no no, it has to feel like THIS to you, doesn't it?"

Note: this isn't the "blowjob exception" that I've been given, the "blowjob pass" as it were. It describes PIV fucking, and how it feels to me. I don't orgasm from it - he does. That's biology/wiring not Dominance or not and specific to me and my pussy and the hookup there.

It's no favor to him, I have something I like as much as/more than good orgasms. It's a power/intimacy thing.

 

[WickedEve]

this i just don't get. i don't care how domineering, authorative, controlling, aggressive, forceful, etc. a person is, or if they are armed with an ak47, a machete blade and a mean streak as long as the mississippi, if my finger is in their bum, in my mind they have become "b*tch."

If it's in your mind, then that's all that matters. You need a partner who fits your mold of a real man, dom, whatever -- one who would never let you finger his ass.
I can have my tongue or finger in my man's ass while he's grabbing my hair and forcing me deeper and, in my mind, he is the dominant partner. It's all about what's going on in your head.

 

[JMohegan]

I've fucked women who clearly enjoy sex as an erotic wrestling match. Penetration has absolutely nothing to do with the score in this game. It's all about control over tempo and pace, position and tone.

A cock, by itself, is an *extremely* vulnerable instrument. The sex wrestling match can only be won with superior physical strength and/or force of will.

 

[JMohegan]

or I'm fucking for intimacy and I really don't give a shit if I don't feel in charge because chances are the other person doesn't either at that particular time, it's not high on the list of concerns, it's really that "melt into you" thing. The men I'm with are emotionally mine, and emotionally overcome and vulnerable and raw and naked and sweat covered as they hump and grind toward that exquisite moment of complete vulnerability and I'm soaked with their sweat and making it happen for them

Love makes a human being vulnerable. And intensely emotional intimacy is the ultimate physical representation of that fact.

 

[YourCaptor]

this i just don't get. i don't care how domineering, authorative, controlling, aggressive, forceful, etc. a person is, or if they are armed with an ak47, a machete blade and a mean streak as long as the mississippi, if my finger is in their bum, in my mind they have become "b*tch."

Dominance in humans is not as simple as it is in say dogs, not only because of how it functions, but also because our active thoughts constantly mess with it.

Thing is dominance and submission is subconscious, its how you feel in relation to your environment, or elements there of, its not what you think.

Humans don’t require penetration in order to establish their dominance. Most of it is done through energy, that is socially, territorially, physically, and sexually. Of course there is also the good old forced method, no energy, just make them cry and give up. For many people however the forced take can never fully illicit submission. They say the mind is always free, this is especially true when external force is used.

When you used energy, penetration is flexible, tables can be turned. When you use force it only goes one way. The key thing to remember is that force is not enough when dealing with humans.

But of course the right combination of energy and force is where the real fun lies.

 

[JMohegan]

Question: is there a methodology and an attitude that a woman could bring to "getting fucked" that does not satisfy your dominance, and would not even if you could beat the living crap out of her with impunity because - it's HER.

Of course.

There's defiance, or failure to perceptibly acquiesce, or even just a mental distancing/checking out, that can make the difference between plain fucking and getting my dominant rocks off. Plain fucking would still represent a conquest of sorts, but not a conquest that satisfies my inner D.

 

[ownedsubgal]

You do realize at some point they probably had their temperature taken?

That's YOUR right, but it's YOUR projection. For some people stuff up there feels good, end story. No drama, no identity crisis. Just like deep tissue massage or shaving with electric versus single edge or vice versa or sitting through an opera or sitting through Dark Knight (zzz) or not. I've had enough boringly UNsubmissive men in my life who are obsessed with having things in their ass to know there's no correalation. Bossy arrogant T-soaked pricks in fact.

i think this would be an apt time for me to clarify that i'm not really talking about dominant and submissive natures here, i'm not saying that some guy who likes a finger in the bum is automatically some dainty, vulnerable subslut. can you be a Dominant person, and enjoy being penetrated? absolutely, why not, it may be all about sensation, as you say. however during those moments of penetration, are you actively dominant right then and there at that moment? that's all i'm talking about here, moments. the vibe during the act of penetration itself, not anything outside of or around it.

YC mentioned penetration not being necessary to establish dominance...i agree completely. i'm not talking about establishing dominance, or expression of true submission, but merely the momentary dynamic of power and control raised by actively penetrating, and being actively penetrated.

Netz, you mentioned orgasm being a non-empowered moment. i would agree, but in a different way. many Dominants, male and female, feel quite the power rush from forcibly bringing a sexual partner to orgasm, having that person quiver and throb in an uncontrolled release. sort of a "see? see what i've done to you?" it could be my subbie wiring or just the fact that i'm incredibly weird, but i view the male orgasm as a moment of raw primal, blind male energy. when a man, no matter how vanilla, no matter how submissive (i've been with a few), is fucking me, and on that drive to climax, for those moments when he is climbing to that peak and for those moments when he finally reaches it, i'm always a little afraid. just because i know that he is completely out of control for those 20, 30, 40 seconds..he is not thinking about me or my pussy. he's just doing what he must, spreading the seed. then, once it's over, he comes back to himself and all is normal again. "normal" could be every bit as self-focused and dominant as he was while cumming, or "normal" could be some guy who's as submissive as i am, and looking at me with concern and guilt, "i'm sorry, i didn't hurt you did i?"

 

[Marquis]

I think penetration is penetration and dominance is dominance.

Does the plug dominate the socket?

I'm not really sure, but they each play their role.

 

[Netzach]

Netz, you mentioned orgasm being a non-empowered moment. i would agree, but in a different way. many Dominants, male and female, feel quite the power rush from forcibly bringing a sexual partner to orgasm, having that person quiver and throb in an uncontrolled release. sort of a "see? see what i've done to you?" it could be my subbie wiring or just the fact that i'm incredibly weird, but i view the male orgasm as a moment of raw primal, blind male energy. when a man, no matter how vanilla, no matter how submissive (i've been with a few), is fucking me, and on that drive to climax, for those moments when he is climbing to that peak and for those moments when he finally reaches it, i'm always a little afraid. just because i know that he is completely out of control for those 20, 30, 40 seconds..he is not thinking about me or my pussy. he's just doing what he must, spreading the seed. then, once it's over, he comes back to himself and all is normal again. "normal" could be every bit as self-focused and dominant as he was while cumming, or "normal" could be some guy who's as submissive as i am, and looking at me with concern and guilt, "i'm sorry, i didn't hurt you did i?"

The only difference I, personally, experience between male and female partners' orgasms is some goo. No, wait, the consistency of said goo. And the liability to ask me if I like them in some fashion or not. I actually feel more assured watching and holding and being around him in the exact arc you are talking about and I personally experience that abandonment of self as my waxing control, his losing control. Hardly "afraid" it's the whole point of fucking for me.

It's definitely a POV issue, I don't experience it your way. You don't mine. However one of us gets to read about it in every piece of SM porn known to man and the other never does. Because in the porn provided for ME the woman doesn't fuck, isn't ever in love with her submissive male, and doesn't seem to enjoy having orgasms as much as she does peeing in his mouth.

W....t....f?

But that's another thread.

If you want to ask me if I think everyone is flipped just a tiny bit when they're coming, now, you'll probably get me to agree with you.

Oh I know, superDom would never ever let a woman edge him with her mouth, he'd smack her one.(reverse or mix genders, that's not a dig on you)

Why?

Because he'd be flipped and he knows it.

Yes momentarily, dangerously, flipped. Oh well. We all seem to pull up our zippers and go on in spite of it.

 

[YourCaptor]

i think this would be an apt time for me to clarify that i'm not really talking about dominant and submissive natures here, i'm not saying that some guy who likes a finger in the bum is automatically some dainty, vulnerable subslut. can you be a Dominant person, and enjoy being penetrated? absolutely, why not, it may be all about sensation, as you say. however during those moments of penetration, are you actively dominant right then and there at that moment? that's all i'm talking about here, moments. the vibe during the act of penetration itself, not anything outside of or around it.

YC mentioned penetration not being necessary to establish dominance...i agree completely. i'm not talking about establishing dominance, or expression of true submission, but merely the momentary dynamic of power and control raised by actively penetrating, and being actively penetrated.

Netz, you mentioned orgasm being a non-empowered moment. i would agree, but in a different way. many Dominants, male and female, feel quite the power rush from forcibly bringing a sexual partner to orgasm, having that person quiver and throb in an uncontrolled release. sort of a "see? see what i've done to you?" it could be my subbie wiring or just the fact that i'm incredibly weird, but i view the male orgasm as a moment of raw primal, blind male energy. when a man, no matter how vanilla, no matter how submissive (i've been with a few), is fucking me, and on that drive to climax, for those moments when he is climbing to that peak and for those moments when he finally reaches it, i'm always a little afraid. just because i know that he is completely out of control for those 20, 30, 40 seconds..he is not thinking about me or my pussy. he's just doing what he must, spreading the seed. then, once it's over, he comes back to himself and all is normal again. "normal" could be every bit as self-focused and dominant as he was while cumming, or "normal" could be some guy who's as submissive as i am, and looking at me with concern and guilt, "i'm sorry, i didn't hurt you did i?"

Well, with penile penetration maybe a little, I think position has more to do with it because the access has to be there.

With finger however there are probably positions that give the penetrated power. If he sat on her chest for example, there is no way shes getting up and his dick is right in her face. All she can do is please him.

Or even in a 69 position, her face is down their, and his legs can toss her around anyway he wants.

Maybe you’re thinking, he can’t force her to do it, so shes got some control.

One interesting of topic note, the missionary position, especially when her legs are wrapped around him, is considered advantageous for the one on bottom in grappling.

 

[subbie_333]

A few thoughts (yeah, remember, go fly a kite if you feel insulted, blah blah blah)

For me personally, the original post is contrary to what i believe. Different strokes for different folks. i have heard this "theory" before, and, have heard enough people on both sides to believe it is not a fact. So, when someone stands up and proclaims it to be fact, it smacks of "my kink is OK, but, yours is not" and of "the one true way" approach to BDSM.

Example: sub male laying flat on a table, tied up so that he can't move, teased to the point of erection, and, the female dominant straddles him so that She is penetrated. She "commands" him to not orgasm (and he does not orgasm). She moves as She wishes. She orgasms. She climbs off him and unties him. Me personally, i don't see a single moment where he was dominant over Her.

Example: repeat the same scenario, but, She lowers Her pussy onto his mouth. She orders him to penetrate Her with his tongue. Blah blah blah. Again, i still don't see where he was dominant.

Example: repeat the same scenario, but, he has one of those dildos-mounted-on-his-chin thingies. She lowers Herself such that She is penetrated by the dildo. Blah blah blah. Again, i still don't see where he was dominant.

Concerning orgasm. i have always made the argument that when i orgasm, that is the ultimate of me losing control over my own bodily function until the orgasm ends. Perhaps that is my own selfish argument as to why i still want to have orgasms with a dominant woman. On the other hand, if She orders me to eat Her (or do anything else) for the sole purpose of Her to orgasm, then, during Her orgasm it can be argued that She is not in control of a certain part of "Her". But, during that orgasm, if She ordered me to continue and i didn't, i would "learn" very quickly that She was still the dominant one during Her orgasm.