What's wrong with F/m in BDSM and how can we fix it?

[subbie_333]

OK, i have called this high-powered summit with the goal of resolving this problem by the end of the weekend. So, LET'S GET TO IT!!!!!

hhhmmm Well, maybe in somewhat serious terms, let's explore some things and see what can be done to resolve misconceptions and make it easier for female PYLs and male pyls in the BDSM community.

Let's start with some stereotypes. The man-hating whip-wielding Dominatrix in it just for the money. The sniveling married man looking for a thrill. The switch woman who bottoms to women but tops men supposedly cus she can't make up her mind, or, she just hates men. The clueless juvenile male who just wants to wank off to any woman who pays attention to him, even if it means pissing off a women to get her to yell at him and abuse him.

Now, how about real. The woman who feels confident in Her dominance and just looking for a nice guy who will obey Her and make Her life more comfortable. The nice guy who is very comfortable in being around a strong woman and doesn't want to be taunted as being emasculated by submitting to a woman. The sadistic woman who loves tormenting the male body, but, who also wants to love the man inside the body. The male pain slut who feels the ultimate that he can give in a relationship with a woman is all of his mind, body, and, soul.

And now, some of the problems, basically as far as the PYLs and pyls getting together. Sometimes the problem is perception. Male pyls whine that there are too few hetero (or bi's seeking males) female PYLs. There are so many wannabe clueless male wankers that the female PYLs can't find the real male pyls. Some women are just now exploring Their PYL side, and, They can't find adequate mentors. New male pyls don't know how to do the right things cus they don't know where to start looking for info and the women are just blowing them off.

Lastly, a more serious issue as it affects the BDSM community. Because of a lot of the stuff listed above, both stereotypes and legitimate issues, some feel that "legitimate" female PYLs and male pyls don't get the respect they deserve in the BDSM community. "Professional" female PYLs are shunned as not being lifestyle, while some that claim to be fulltime lifestyle are shunned if They accept money for some scenes. Male PYLs hit on the female PYLs, thinking that they simply haven't meet the right male yet. And, many simply don't understand how a male could submit to a female PYL - they can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of it. And, many times that misunderstanding is extended as a lack of respect when a male pyl tries to speak up or assume a leadership position in the community.

So, let's discuss. Obviously there will always be eager young males entering the lifestyle and they need to be slowed down and taught a few things. But, how as a community can we do that? What needs to be done to educate male PYLs that female PYLs really do not want to submit to them? Is this really just ignorance, or, is it stubbornness? Are other problems a lack of compassion or respect? Laziness, or, not taking people seriously enough? Or, are all problems rooted in a hormone imbalance, both males and females (just wanted to see if y'all are reading all the way through)? What can be done to help female PYLs and male pyls find each other through all the junk they have to wade through? Does the internet make all this easier or worse? What can be done specifically on the internet to help? We all seem to get annoyed at the wannabes and the ignorant, and, the fights that break out because of that. So, even if you aren't a female PYL or a male pyl, this affects you to some degree.


Is all this really a problem or not?

 

[Essene]

Okay. That post was way too long for my short attention span, and as a switch it left me feeling more confused...

Well I can only speak for myself. I happen to stumble across someone when I'm ready, then that's great...if not...well I dunno. I guess I'll just continue eating Ben&Jerry's at 3am.


I know, it would be easy if we could just create a site where only serious folk were allowed to join, but there's no way to really regulate that...messy...I guess the best option would be to invest in a BDSM dating paysite as wankers who are not serious most likely will not be willing to pay.

???

 

[Netzach]

Sadly, the problem we're dealing with is that women's sexuality in this world is so tightly controlled that we don't have any actual models of female sexual agency. We have various archetypes and caricatures, but we have to do so much self-invention and block out so much damn noise.

I mean a large part of the problem are that men who want to bottom to us start out every dialogue with "whatcha gotta do is...." based on whatever they've been jerking off to since whenever. It's not that SUB men are like this, it's that men are like this. It's how they're raised to be, just like I've been raised to be more worried about what gives him a boner than what gets me off. The influence is early, permanent and inevitable. I will forever be kinked to people's reactions as much as I am, because I don't have a dick. It's just how it goes.

There are a narrow set of images being reflected back at us when we look at ourselves. Some people have more problems with those images than I do because, well, they're more hetero than I am basically. I personally am turned on by a lot of things I've been told no woman is REALLY turned on by. I'm told this by men and women alike.

I don't find man-in-a-dress inherently UN hot or a joke. I don't find man who wants to be told his dick is small and useless UN sexy - there are psychic needs I have that that tickles outside the PIV sexual realm, right? Fucking is not the end goal of all of this, but calling it "a mental thing" doesn't really address it well enough.

But if you look that's all there is in the mainstream of F/m more or less - we're being told "you must make him feel like a sissy or a wimp ftw!" as a starting point when we say "I think I might be interested in Dominance" if you are a girl into boys.

This is fucked up.

Some people love to blame pros and media for this, but I think that's way too easy - it's like being anti-porn or attributing ED's ONLY to fashion magazines - it's not remotely close to the real issue.

et's start with some stereotypes. The man-hating whip-wielding Dominatrix in it just for the money. The sniveling married man looking for a thrill. The switch woman who bottoms to women but tops men supposedly cus she can't make up her mind, or, she just hates men. The clueless juvenile male who just wants to wank off to any woman who pays attention to him, even if it means pissing off a women to get her to yell at him and abuse him.

These people are real too. Not letting them in the club isn't the issue. They're here, get used to it. There are always going to be people whose motives you think are less cool than yours, but you know what, no one knows who the other person is half the time when they make these decisions, they just go by screen-name, outfit, whether they're pretty or ugly or age or weight. The same people who scream loudest about the superficiality of dress for pleasure people or pros are exclusionary and filled with crap assumption as they accuse everyone else of being.

We're dealing with sensitive, internal, buried stuff and we make huge blanket assumptions.

 

[intothewoods]

Sadly, the problem we're dealing with is that women's sexuality in this world is so tightly controlled that we don't have any actual models of female sexual agency. We have various archetypes and caricatures, but we have to do so much self-invention and block out so much damn noise.

I mean a large part of the problem are that men who want to bottom to us start out every dialogue with "whatcha gotta do is...." based on whatever they've been jerking off to since whenever. It's not that SUB men are like this, it's that men are like this. It's how they're raised to be, just like I've been raised to be more worried about what gives him a boner than what gets me off. The influence is early, permanent and inevitable. I will forever be kinked to people's reactions as much as I am, because I don't have a dick. It's just how it goes.

There are a narrow set of images being reflected back at us when we look at ourselves. Some people have more problems with those images than I do because, well, they're more hetero than I am basically. I personally am turned on by a lot of things I've been told no woman is REALLY turned on by. I'm told this by men and women alike.

Yes, yes, yes. It just can't be as simple as, oh, women are less sexual than men. That whole stereotype of the wife who just wishes her husband would hurry up and be done already so he can go fix the toilet or something? What is that? I know we don't have the same levels of testosterone, but my gut tells me that we're just not encouraged to be conscious of and empowered by our sexuality as women.

And this isn't a rant at men. Well, not just. I think a lot of what's preached by some feminists on college campuses isn't helping either. I saw an entire display on porn and how sick it is when I was a freshman. Um, where was my porn? And what if like some of it and I'm a woman?

Oh, btw, I'm a submissive, but I do play sometimes with, and am friends with a lot of submissive/bottom men and gender queer guys. Most of this is playful, messing around stuff. But that's my connection to the F/m thing.

Fwiw, I have met a few Pro-Dommes and their subs who pay for it, and it struck me as an entirely different world. Their public interaction seemed very much like role-playing and forced. I don't know if this was just clients checking out potential Ds, or if it's always like that, or what. It was entirely different than the scene I'm familiar with.

 

[Essene]

Sadly, the problem we're dealing with is that women's sexuality in this world is so tightly controlled that we don't have any actual models of female sexual agency. We have various archetypes and caricatures, but we have to do so much self-invention and block out so much damn noise.

This is very true.

I mean a large part of the problem are that men who want to bottom to us start out every dialogue with "whatcha gotta do is...." based on whatever they've been jerking off to since whenever. It's not that SUB men are like this, it's that men are like this. It's how they're raised to be, just like I've been raised to be more worried about what gives him a boner than what gets me off. The influence is early, permanent and inevitable...

RE: latter part of paragraph; society/early influence permanently affects perspective?

There are a narrow set of images being reflected back at us when we look at ourselves. Some people have more problems with those images than I do because, well, they're more hetero than I am basically. I personally am turned on by a lot of things I've been told no woman is REALLY turned on by. I'm told this by men and women alike.

I don't find man-in-a-dress inherently UN hot or a joke. I don't find man who wants to be told his dick is small and useless UN sexy - there are psychic needs I have that that tickles outside the PIV sexual realm, right? Fucking is not the end goal of all of this, but calling it "a mental thing" doesn't really address it well enough.

*nod*

But if you look that's all there is in the mainstream of F/m more or less - we're being told "you must make him feel like a sissy or a wimp ftw!" as a starting point when we say "I think I might be interested in Dominance" if you are a girl into boys.

This is fucked up.

Some people love to blame pros and media for this, but I think that's way too easy - it's like being anti-porn or attributing ED's ONLY to fashion magazines - it's not remotely close to the real issue.



These people are real too. Not letting them in the club isn't the issue. They're here, get used to it.

I don't think (at least on my part) it was an exclusionary thing. I just find dealing with asshats to be incredibly frustrating, and on the typical dating site, it is especially compounded.

Saying "no" to an asshat PYL is easier for me than saying "no" to an asshat pyl. The top is demanding in a very concise way, - clear concise, easy to reject, but the bottom has a tendency to whine without being rude, and it's like pulling gum off my arm.

It's one of my own very personal issues. My mother saying "Be nice." is always playing in my head.

So I am torn between wanting to be able to have the freedom to say "no" withouth guilt, but not wanting to hurt the feelings of someone who I don't know even if they are being a total asshat.

 

[ataxia.girl]

And this isn't a rant at men. Well, not just. I think a lot of what's preached by some feminists on college campuses isn't helping either. I saw an entire display on porn and how sick it is when I was a freshman. Um, where was my porn? And what if like some of it and I'm a woman?

This is not totally related but is something i have been thinking about with regard to the whole feminist anti-porn stance. i've been very anti Barbie, Brats, Disney Princesses in my house. Very anti all the sexual clothes, movies, games for little girls who my little girls of course absolutely love.

i've recently started relenting because i realized that their sexuality is theirs and they should be allowed to exercise it. Why am i teaching them not to exercise one of the most powerful things they have? No i don't like all the stereotypes and i try to introduce other concepts but trying to completely shelter my daughters from sexuality is NOT helping them.

Honestly its a big problem and i'm not really even sure how to handle it. Like Netzach said there aren't really a lot of options for me to model to them except do x to get a reaction out of and control men vis a vis your sexual desireability or supress your sexuality as much as possible and focus on being successful in other realms. i can't give them dicks and tell them to go divide and conquer.

The female who TAKES what she wants sexually isn't really out there as far as i can tell. She may give sex and take other things but there aren't very many examples of females who take sexual pleasure for its own sake.

 

[intothewoods]

This is not totally related but is something i have been thinking about with regard to the whole feminist anti-porn stance. i've been very anti Barbie, Brats, Disney Princesses in my house. Very anti all the sexual clothes, movies, games for little girls who my little girls of course absolutely love.

i've recently started relenting because i realized that their sexuality is theirs and they should be allowed to exercise it. Why am i teaching them not to exercise one of the most powerful things they have? No i don't like all the stereotypes and i try to introduce other concepts but trying to completely shelter my daughters from sexuality is NOT helping them.

Honestly its a big problem and i'm not really even sure how to handle it. Like Netzach said there aren't really a lot of options for me to model to them except do x to get a reaction out of and control men vis a vis your sexual desireability or supress your sexuality as much as possible and focus on being successful in other realms. i can't give them dicks and tell them to go divide and conquer.

The female who TAKES what she wants sexually isn't really out there as far as i can tell. She may give sex and take other things but there aren't very many examples of females who take sexual pleasure for its own sake.

We should start another thread on this. Maybe in Cafe? It's not bdsm really.

How old are they? I hope I have a girl next time around and if I do (well, same goes for my boy), no Brat doll is coming into my house. Are you kidding me? Ok, this is one of those things that is hard to discuss over a message board. I haven't looked at Brat dolls in a while, but my general rule is that girls get to be girls, kids, not grown up women, until they're older. No freaking spa appointments, or sexual clothing.

It is their sexuality to explore and discovery, but I don't think they are really discovering it with all of that noise.

It is complicated, and I don't mean to get into my oh hell no is that coming into my house voice, but I'm kind of insane about all of this gender stuff. Sometimes you have to be hardcore about throwing the other stuff in their faces, even if it means you're that annoying stereotype of a liberal do gooder parent. I expose my kid to everything, and give him the option to like what he wants, not just construction vehicles. Hey, I now like diggers as much as the next gal, but damn it to hell that boy will know how to cook for himself as well. At least the basics.

 

[Netzach]

Saying "no" to an asshat PYL is easier for me than saying "no" to an asshat pyl. The top is demanding in a very concise way, - clear concise, easy to reject, but the bottom has a tendency to whine without being rude, and it's like pulling gum off my arm.

It's one of my own very personal issues. My mother saying "Be nice." is always playing in my head.

So I am torn between wanting to hit someone, play etc, but not wanting to hurt the feelings of someone who I don't know even if they are being a total asshat.

Not unique to you at all. I think it's probably 99 percent of us. I struggle with this like you have no idea. It's much easier to say "no, asshole man testing my boundary overtly" instead of "no manipulative man!"

 

[Netzach]

that boy will know how to cook for himself as well. At least the basics.

When he is 15 or 16 he may even figure out this will get him laid in college like nothing else.

 

[ataxia.girl]

How old are they? I hope I have a girl next time around and if I do (well, same goes for my boy), no Brat doll is coming into my house. Are you kidding me?

5 and 2. Its easy to control until they start having birthday parties and visiting friends houses. The toy manufacturer's suck you in with the kiddie versions of these toys. My 5 year old has the Bratz kids that like to ride horses and their horses. She also has a Bratz scooter and now that she uses the computer if i leave her alone for 10 minutes she's watching Barbie or Bratz movies on You Tube. All the other non-doll products can get really hard to keep off limits. Next time you are in a store try to find a pretty nightgown, or even an ugly one, that doesn't have one of these characters on it and isn't Dora the Explorer. Good luck.

The "not allowed" list of products for my daughters was and still is much much longer than for my sons. There isn't some name brand of gun like "Barbie" that i have to try and not buy the cereal, fruit snacks, movies, computer games, clothes, shoes etc for. i can just not get the actual "gun" (although we lost that battle as well). Do you let your daughter get exposed to all the branding and then just exlude the actual doll and do you honestly think you are going to be able to do that? It almost turns into a form of torture to let them have everything else except the actual coveted item.

Sure start a thread. i love this topic.

 

[Netzach]

I feel for the parents. This one's gotten so much more out of hand than it was when we were kids. I ignored barbie and lego wasn't gendered yet.

 

[subbie_333]

Okay. That post was way too long for my short attention span, and as a switch it left me feeling more confused...

Ya know, some people think that switches should just go out and kill themselves. Now, that's not me saying that, it's just something i've heard

 

[Netzach]

The female who TAKES what she wants sexually isn't really out there as far as i can tell. She may give sex and take other things but there aren't very many examples of females who take sexual pleasure for its own sake.

I think this can be figured out and arrived at, and I also think that this exists in lesbian sex for sure. Much to my delight.

 

[subbie_333]

Maybe that's what it is. I really find it to be irritating when a pyl says "whatcha gotta do is...", but I find it acceptable with a PYL because that's more of what I'm expecting.

<snip>

I don't think (at least on my part) it was an exclusionary thing. I just find dealing with asshats to be incredibly frustrating, and on the typical dating site, it is especially compounded.

<snip>

Saying "no" to an asshat PYL is easier for me than saying "no" to an asshat pyl. The top is demanding in a very concise way, - clear concise, easy to reject, but the bottom has a tendency to whine without being rude, and it's like pulling gum off my arm.

OK, let's try to turn this into something constructive. When you are in a PYL mood and you go looking for pyls and you are screening them, what are you looking for? What sorta things do they say that grab your attention in a good way? How do you go about determining if they are an asshat or not? Wouldn't that last question be an issue that you would want to implement quicker and streamline to make your search more efficient and productive?

 

[subbie_333]

Okay. That post was way too long for my short attention span...

( makes a mental note that some female PYLs might have ADD )

 

[ataxia.girl]

I feel for the parents. This one's gotten so much more out of hand than it was when we were kids. I ignored barbie and lego wasn't gendered yet.

Its seriously impossible now. i limit as much as i can without being a villain and try to introduce as many alternatives as possible. For instance we have all the Hayao Miyazaki movies and just one Disney, damesel-in-distress-waiting-for-prince-charming movie but to a large degree they like what they like and having them get a taste of it elsewhere but disallowing it at home almost makes the desire for it more intense.

So i end up watching Bratz movies with her on You Tube occasionally and we discuss why perhaps Princess Nausicaa is cooler than whatever their names are. Sometimes she is convinced and sometimes she isn't. But any way you slice it most female heroines are either non-sexual or still sexually passive while that is not the case with male heros and if i'm wrong here i need the examples asap.

The mainstream, sexually passive, path offered to females is very attractive. The more active, less traveled, alternative is a hard sell. i think De Beauvoir still has a lot to say in our generation. i know i'm basically a classic example of the little girl narcissist\masochist she lays out in The Second Sex.

 

[Netzach]

I look for hot men who hold their own in conversations with me and melt me and excite me and dampen my panties and make me laugh and ask me questions and want to know what I like.

For some reason I can't grok, there's a memo out there that says you *suppress* any part of you that might DO the above if you are a man who wants to hook up with a Dominant woman, and you turn on the "I am mindless slave" faucet full force. WTH? Where is that from?

I tell the anecdote often, but I left the munch I met M at with my heart in my mouth because the cutest boy I talked to in months was all excited about Chicago and The Pixies and the Oak St. Cinema and oh, shit, he was probably a Dom, but I never had asked....I'd sort it out after I called him and we had coffee though.

THAT is what I look for.

 

[ataxia.girl]

I look for hot men who hold their own in conversations with me and melt me and excite me and dampen my panties and make me laugh and ask me questions and want to know what I like.

So how are we different?

 

[intothewoods]

5 and 2. Its easy to control until they start having birthday parties and visiting friends houses. The toy manufacturer's suck you in with the kiddie versions of these toys. My 5 year old has the Bratz kids that like to ride horses and their horses. She also has a Bratz scooter and now that she uses the computer if i leave her alone for 10 minutes she's watching Barbie or Bratz movies on You Tube. All the other non-doll products can get really hard to keep off limits. Next time you are in a store try to find a pretty nightgown, or even an ugly one, that doesn't have one of these characters on it and isn't Dora the Explorer. Good luck.

The "not allowed" list of products for my daughters was and still is much much longer than for my sons. There isn't some name brand of gun like "Barbie" that i have to try and not buy the cereal, fruit snacks, movies, computer games, clothes, shoes etc for. i can just not get the actual "gun" (although we lost that battle as well). Do you let your daughter get exposed to all the branding and then just exlude the actual doll and do you honestly think you are going to be able to do that? It almost turns into a form of torture to let them have everything else except the actual coveted item.

Sure start a thread. i love this topic.

It sounds like you're doing a lot. I hope I didn't come off like a bitch. It is hard. My kid comes home talking about tv shows he does not watch and proclaiming his love for them. I say, hon, you have never watched this! Doesn't matter. I allow very few licensed character things in my house, and what is there is second hand. I may start a crackdown on some of this too. It seriously is different from when we grew up. It's like a freaking war to keep this stuff out. I love how you talk about it with your daughters - that's fantastic.

The big difference these days is that they have marketing studies and they aren't afraid to use them. My kid knows all sorts of brands that I'd never purchased for him, just because we'd driven by the places and said the names out loud. He'd never even watched commercials at that point! WTF?

And, okay, what is with the Disney princess stuff? I grew up with Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty and all, but these days it's downright creepy. There are things I like from Disney. I don't mean to portray them as the evil empire (when clearly that is Crackbucks ). But they really took that princess shit up a notch with the marketing.

 

[subbie_333]

I look for hot men who hold their own in conversations with me and melt me and excite me and dampen my panties and make me laugh and ask me questions and want to know what I like.

Reminds me of a radio commercial out, something about how to attract women, and, the first step is "to be good looking".

Putting aside that what is "hot men" for women might be different, some male pyls complain that they have a hard time getting close enough to do those things you list. Part of that complaint online is getting lost in the avalanche of emails She receives, and, part of it in real life is Her always seeming to have guys around Her in a real life BDSM situation.

Personally, for me it is not that i am so confident in my wonderfulness that She will immediately snatch me up as soon as i open my mouth once She pays the first second of attention to me. It's more simply having the opportunity to have both of us interact enough to find out if there is a chance we might be a good match. If we aren't, oh well, move on. It just gets annoying to not get the opportunity.

So, again trying to get something constructive here, do you consciously provide opportunities like this for male pyls, or, do you expect it to just happen, or, do you expect him to be "good enough" in some manner that he creates that opportunity?

 

[Netzach]

So how are we different?

Oh. Well these charming men like when I hit them with things, because that's my thing, and like to know what I like because that is useful to know when you purport to want to do what someone wants, right?

 

[subbie_333]

I look for hot men who hold their own in conversations with me and melt me and excite me and dampen my panties and make me laugh and ask me questions and want to know what I like.

For some reason I can't grok, there's a memo out there that says you *suppress* any part of you that might DO the above if you are a man who wants to hook up with a Dominant woman, and you turn on the "I am mindless slave" faucet full force. WTH? Where is that from?

I tell the anecdote often, but I left the munch I met M at with my heart in my mouth because the cutest boy I talked to in months was all excited about Chicago and The Pixies and the Oak St. Cinema and oh, shit, he was probably a Dom, but I never had asked....I'd sort it out after I called him and we had coffee though.

THAT is what I look for.

STOP EDITING AFTER I REPLY AND REREAD AFTER EACH EDIT!

oops sorry about that Ma'am, it just sorta came out

 

[intothewoods]

When he is 15 or 16 he may even figure out this will get him laid in college like nothing else.

Woohoo! So true.

My admittedly biased opinion is that my ex really had that whole doufus helpless male thing drilled into him. You know? That oh, you men are just getting in the way. I can do it better myself! Um, hell no, cope and adjust and lend a hand, thank you.

There's a male gender issue for ya. Gah, parents can be like lethal weapons.

 

[Netzach]

Reminds me of a radio commercial out, something about how to attract women, and, the first step is "to be good looking".

Step 1 is caring. Paying attention. H is not Robert Redford, but he has large hazel eyes, a wonderful voice, and he has shirts that button down the front and wears clean ones. We're visual animals, shallow as that is. Attractive comes in a lot of forms, but clueless and slovenly isn't a high ranking one.

This doesn't faze a lot of people out there.

Putting aside that what is "hot men" for women might be different, some male pyls complain that they have a hard time getting close enough to do those things you list. Part of that complaint online is getting lost in the avalanche of emails She receives, and, part of it in real life is Her always seeming to have guys around Her in a real life BDSM situation.

Personally, for me it is not that i am so confident in my wonderfulness that She will immediately snatch me up as soon as i open my mouth once She pays the first second of attention to me. It's more simply having the opportunity to have both of us interact enough to find out if there is a chance we might be a good match. If we aren't, oh well, move on. It just gets annoying to not get the opportunity.

So, again trying to get something constructive here, do you consciously provide opportunities like this for male pyls, or, do you expect it to just happen, or, do you expect him to be "good enough" in some manner that he creates that opportunity?

I'm not SO innundated with email that I won't read a really good one. One where the person is speaking to me as an individual and not as a potential fix for his desires.

I'm not SO surrounded with men that I can't notice a poised wallflower. But if you run away when I say "hi" that won't work.

I'm not so head-up-ass on all the time that I feel like I'm getting the real you when "mistress grovel grovel" is your idea of making the connection. Save that for when I've actually, oh, consented to play?

 

[Netzach]

STOP EDITING AFTER I REPLY AND REREAD AFTER EACH EDIT!

oops sorry about that Ma'am, it just sorta came out

blah, I just did it again. additive brain.