Vanilla Vs Kinky : where is the line?

[rida]

I'm aware the line is a moving target. Woman on top used to be kinky probably up to less than 50 years ago.

So where do you draw the line? Is it defined by the action? is it defined by the mind set?

Is anal sex kinky? Is handcuffing your partner kinky? Is a bj that turns into cock worship kinky? A spanking?

Or the line is defined by the energy, the power exchange in the dynamic?

 

[the_mgp]

**********

 

[desertslave]

I think it's definitely an 'eye of the beholder' thing. I think oral in almost any form is delightful but vanilla. I have friends who strongly believe otherwise. Lord only knows what they'd think of our flogger collection.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I think there is vanilla, kinky and then BDSM. My husband and I are in a vanilla relationship where once in a while we do kinky things--but it is never D/s.

On the other hand, Daddy and I are in a D/s relationship where we occasionally have vanilla sex.

For me at least it is all in the mindset. WIth my husband I am thinking of his pleasure but mine too. Sometimes he does things just to make me feel good. With Daddy everything I do is for his pleasure. Yeah, I enjoy most of it too, but in my head I have his needs first.

Yep, it's in the mind where the difference is. I really enjoy both relationships for exactly what there are.

 

[Aussie Worm]

As time goes on what used to be kinky is becoming vanilla, these days many couples think nothing of tying their partners hands together with a scarf or cloth or whatever. Years ago that would have been 'out there'

Even covering your partner with food and licking it off them doesn't feel that kinky to me... maybe its just me.

 

[Ardeche]

No Set Line

Differs for everyone. I think there are some things that most people would consider much closer to kinky than vanilla though i.e. spankings, anal, bondage.

Not to mention the line can also shift dependent on the person you are involved with. I was very much vanilla with my previous partner and I'm a LOT more kinkier with my current partner.

 

[snowbyte]

We're kinky. They're perverts.

 

[Homburg]

We're kinky. They're perverts.

Awesome.

--

I think it really depends. Would you talk about a given activity with your non-kinky friends? If so, it's not kinky to you. An example would be anal sex. Anal sex may be a little kinky for some people, but most folks don't call it kinky like we think of it. It's too mainstream, even if not everyone does it. Tying someone's hands with a scarf is a bit more kinky, but still in the realm of normal people. Handcuffs are starting to get out there. You bought them for sex, and toys for sex is starting to get kinky. These are examples of course, and more a look into how a theoretical someone would look at the topic.

Personally, I have sex with my gals and never touch a toy or rope, and most people would still consider that sex kinky if they were watching? Why? Because they're watching someone have sex, and we're doing it while they're watching. It's kinky at that point.

That was a joke. A joke, son. Get it?

/Foghorn Leghorn off

 

[rida]

Thank you all for your input.

I agree that at the end it is all indeed in the eye of the beholder.

I think there is vanilla, kinky and then BDSM. My husband and I are in a vanilla relationship where once in a while we do kinky things--but it is never D/s.

On the other hand, Daddy and I are in a D/s relationship where we occasionally have vanilla sex.

For me at least it is all in the mindset. WIth my husband I am thinking of his pleasure but mine too. Sometimes he does things just to make me feel good. With Daddy everything I do is for his pleasure. Yeah, I enjoy most of it too, but in my head I have his needs first.

Yep, it's in the mind where the difference is. I really enjoy both relationships for exactly what there are.

Thank you for your contribution.
Indeed you have a good point in separating kinky from BDSM.

So ultimately is not the action but the mindset.
As it has been pointed out, spanking, tying hands, licking food off someone's body, even anal sex has became more mainstream and as such less in the reaml of kinky. But what about more extreme things, like flogging? or knife play or humiliation? If done without a power exchange dynamic, it is just kinky and not BDSM?

.....
Personally, I have sex with my gals and never touch a toy or rope, and most people would still consider that sex kinky if they were watching? Why? Because they're watching someone have sex, and we're doing it while they're watching. It's kinky at that point.

That was a joke. A joke, son. Get it?

/Foghorn Leghorn off

A true example of Kinky in eye of the beholder

 

[Homburg]

So ultimately is not the action but the mindset.
As it has been pointed out, spanking, tying hands, licking food off someone's body, even anal sex has became more mainstream and as such less in the reaml of kinky. But what about more extreme things, like flogging? or knife play or humiliation? If done without a power exchange dynamic, it is just kinky and not BDSM?

I find it interesting that in certain milieus I can talk about fireplay, needleplay, suspension, and cutting, and it is enthusiastically accepted and is not kinky at all. Yet if I add in the power dynamic, that would rocket those activities from fun into wierd, probably.

The milieu I am thinking of in this case is a tattoo and piercing shop. I had a good discussion with one of the artists while MIS got her navel pierced. He was enthusiastic about fireplay, needles, etc. Even gave me ideas on doing more serious things with sharp stuff. But I got not even a whiff of lifestyle from him, or the other artist there.

 

[BiaTcHiNFiRe]

Kinky me using vanilla soap!

Thats wheres the line for me.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'm aware the line is a moving target. Woman on top used to be kinky probably up to less than 50 years ago.

So where do you draw the line? Is it defined by the action? is it defined by the mind set?

Is anal sex kinky? Is handcuffing your partner kinky? Is a bj that turns into cock worship kinky? A spanking?

Or the line is defined by the energy, the power exchange in the dynamic?

I find usually the only time I think about 'kinky' is when I come online on Lit and see it mentioned. It is not that I don't think about the things mentioned here, or participate in them often, it is that I just don't go into defining what is kinky and what is not, it just is. For instance, all the things you mention in this post are things I have done on a regular basis in mainstream days going back 35 years and though some of my more conservative partners jumped and thought perhaps they were getting kinky if they joined me, I thought of it more as doing what felt right for me, what my body wanted to do...and truth be told, as I was interested always in what was in a person's head, I would explore and find they also had these desires long before I introduced it into our life or went along with their suggestions which to me seemed to say it wasn't so much kinky as repressed desires due to societal constraints and myths.

While many of those elements and more are still part of our life now, I tend to think it is only the mindset which could define them as kinky now in the minds of some, but which to me is still about doing what seems natural and part of who I am more than being actively kinky. Perhaps I am becoming too pragmatic in my old age, or taking what we have for granted. Perhaps it is more about individual assessment than any blanket statement of what constitutes kinky...what one considers kinky and naughty, another might find perfectly normal and commonplace.

Catalina

 

[WriterDom]

Feather play- not kinky
Fucking a chicken- Kinky

 

[myinnerslut]

I had a good discussion with one of the artists while MIS got her navel pierced. He was enthusiastic about fireplay, needles, etc. Even gave me ideas on doing more serious things with sharp stuff. But I got not even a whiff of lifestyle from him, or the other artist there.

he did what???

for me, kinky is outside out whatever is accepted by most people in the area your in. if your in a very conservative town then having a sex toy might be kinky. if you are in a citywhere sex shops arnt uncommon at all, having a sex toy might not be so kinky.

i think no matter where you are tying up your partner and then beating them with a nightstick untill they cum is considered kinky.

 

[rida]

I find it interesting that in certain milieus I can talk about fireplay, needleplay, suspension, and cutting, and it is enthusiastically accepted and is not kinky at all. Yet if I add in the power dynamic, that would rocket those activities from fun into wierd, probably.

.....

Interesting how actions, even extremes, can be considered not plussing while adding the power dynamic shakes the foundations of many people.

I find usually the only time I think about 'kinky' is when I come online on Lit and see it mentioned.
.....
Perhaps I am becoming too pragmatic in my old age, or taking what we have for granted. Perhaps it is more about individual assessment than any blanket statement of what constitutes kinky...what one considers kinky and naughty, another might find perfectly normal and commonplace.

Catalina

Sorry for snipping the post.
I can see that probably it is just part of being at the beginning of this journey and feeling the need to define some sort of parameters to my own "new" (old but rediscovered) identity. In a couple of years I'll laugh about this struggles.

Feather play- not kinky
Fucking a chicken- Kinky

*snort* Watch out for the "chicken cannot consent and as such is not SCC let alone kinky" folks

for me, kinky is outside out whatever is accepted by most people in the area your in.
...
i think no matter where you are tying up your partner and then beating them with a nightstick untill they cum is considered kinky.

Kinky defined by what is mainstream but up to a certain point.
Bet I'm kinky in my neighborhood and mainstream in the Shibuya/Dogenzaka district (where a lot of love hotels, swinging clubs, sex shops and other sex related business are)

 

[SinfulSailor]

I'm aware the line is a moving target. Woman on top used to be kinky probably up to less than 50 years ago.

So where do you draw the line? Is it defined by the action? is it defined by the mind set?

Is anal sex kinky? Is handcuffing your partner kinky? Is a bj that turns into cock worship kinky? A spanking?

Or the line is defined by the energy, the power exchange in the dynamic?

I think "kinky" is our slang word for "deviant behavior". In the broadest sense, I think what is deviant, ie., kinky, is defined by society. For example, we tend to think cutting is kinky but there are some primitive tribes with cultures that embrace that practice on a broad scale. So, to them cutting is not deviant and therefore, not "kinky". The same with flagellation (whipping, flogging, etc.). Prior cultures embraced flagellation. So, it is deviant for us while it was normal for them. The same is true for multiple sex partners and/or relationships. Other cultures have embraced these activities, so they were not deviant within those cultures.

I think that to understand ourselves and our culture we need to know and understand our history. I mean.... for someone who has never seen a tree, rolling grassland is probably their normal concept of what the whole world is like. Know what I mean? So I think we have to understand what has gone before to give us a perspective on the present.

And in studying what has gone before in terms of sexual and relationship practices I have come to understand that there is very little that we do that is new or kinky. WIITWD is merely deviant in our society. But! If we pick ourselves up and move to another society in another part of the globe then we can often find a place where our own personal kinks are no longer kinky. Ie., our kinks are "acceptable" and thus not deviant.

I think it is clear within an historical perspective that the advent and widespread acceptance of puritanical religious extremism, and the condemnation of virtually all things sexual and erotic had, and continues to have, an enormously important role in defining deviance in our society.

I would suggest that prior to Martin Luther and similar zealots that "woman on top" was not deviant (kinky) at all. I suggest it was considered a very natural way to screw and was widely practiced. After Martin Luther, and the teachings and sexual philosophies that sprang from him and his brethren, ie., women aren't supposed to enjoy sex, sex is solely for procreation and any other enjoyment of it is sinful/repugnant/deviant and so on, and as these philosophies were embraced and accepted by our society, then "woman on top" became deviant.

I think our society is now in the very long, drawn out and often painful process of working our way out of the ludicrous, prejudicial inhibitions foisted upon us. Thus, we see the change where "woman on top" has become more accepted again in the last "50 years" as the OP points out. I think to truly understand this/our sexual evolution we need to keep in mind that the change the OP rightfully notices and points out for discussion is actually a change *back* to a natural outlook on sex.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Sorry for snipping the post.
I can see that probably it is just part of being at the beginning of this journey and feeling the need to define some sort of parameters to my own "new" (old but rediscovered) identity. In a couple of years I'll laugh about this struggles.

Maybe, but more likely it comes from the continual microscopic examination of everything we do which seems to happen often online. It is easy to get caught up in and it isn't always bad to look closer at things, just sometimes it can become sort of a situation of not seeing the forest for the trees sort of mode of thinking, and then wandering off track in search of something that was there all along. I have always been someone who analyses things to death, but I must admit I am relearning and finding a way of changing that at times and I have to thank F for it. He mightn't say much (annoying as it is at times), but sometimes the small things he does say have a much greater impact behind the simplicity. Sometimes over thinking can take the pleasure and/or value out of something and leave little in it's place...sometimes not thinking much at all, just doing, can deliver a wealth of pleasure and value and more.

Catalina

 

[ecstaticsub]

Thank you for your contribution.
Indeed you have a good point in separating kinky from BDSM.

So ultimately is not the action but the mindset.
As it has been pointed out, spanking, tying hands, licking food off someone's body, even anal sex has became more mainstream and as such less in the reaml of kinky. But what about more extreme things, like flogging? or knife play or humiliation? If done without a power exchange dynamic, it is just kinky and not BDSM?

That is how I believe. SIx or seven years ago I asked my husband to try bringing role play into our sex life. It was really alot of fun and we did all different kinds of things...including at one point flogging, restraints. It was role-play BDSM. It didn't work for me at all. I would consider that kinky, not BDSM. My mind even though I was pretending to obey, the mental submission was not there. This experiment also convinced me that I would probably not enjoy bottoming at all.

Hmmm...which brings up bottoming. I consider that BDSM, not just kinky. Perhaps because there is again the difference in mindset. I haven't bottomed to anyone before but I would imagine the mindset is totally different than role-play within a vanilla relationship ?

 

[MasterSnatch]

I pretty much define kinky myself by what people enjoy that is not the normal state of sexual activity two people can do with one another. Society is getting a bit more mature in some aspects of sexual behavior that you can see in how many just go around wearing clothing that is more revealing than it was five years or beyond. Yet when a nipple slip can get a nation worked up you know that it has a long ways to go.

For the vanilla crowd using handcuffs might be considered kinky, for those who use handcuffs choke fucking might be considered kinky, for those that enjoy choke fucking being in public displays might be considered kinky.

It’s all based on the people in the end.

 

[Homburg]

he did what???

Just what I said.

i think no matter where you are tying up your partner and then beating them with a nightstick untill they cum is considered kinky.

Hey now, in my house we call that a fun Sunday night.

----

Interesting how actions, even extremes, can be considered not plussing while adding the power dynamic shakes the foundations of many people.

Of course. They can understand kinky sex. They can't understand someone voluntarily giving their freedom and choice over to another.

 

[captainscarlett]

I think the idea that there has to be a line, and that it should somehow be defined is in and of itself incredibly vanilla and pedestrian. Where my lines are, and where yours are completely immaterial to your enjoyment of the community and your chosen lifestyle. I am who I chosse to be, and so are you. Validation is unneccesary.

 

[Betticus]

I'm aware the line is a moving target. Woman on top used to be kinky probably up to less than 50 years ago.

So where do you draw the line? Is it defined by the action? is it defined by the mind set?

Is anal sex kinky? Is handcuffing your partner kinky? Is a bj that turns into cock worship kinky? A spanking?

Or the line is defined by the energy, the power exchange in the dynamic?

Defined by the energy and the dynamic in action at the time.

Sometimes when she is on top of me, fucking me gently and vanilla the thoughts that are going through my head are the most hardcore and kinkiest. Sometimes when I'm being rough and using her body just for my sexual satisfaction I am feeling an overpowering and tender love for her.

Other times, just the opposite. That's why I talk a lot during sex. That's why I want her to talk to me during. If I just need her I'll take her most of the time in spite of her not being horny. Other times it turns out I just needed some cuddles but my mind was all fogged and confused. I had stress from work or other stress that clouded my judgement. Sometimes halfway through I realize my mistake and I'll cuddle her tenderly and explain to her that I was wrong. Ask her to forgive me.

BDSM doesn't mean you have to be hard and cold. BDSM means that you have a level of communication that is many times better than vanilla.

I personally feel that a non vanilla girl deserves to know what in in my mind and heart at all times. To know me better than I know myself.

For me pure vanilla sex is kinky because I'm only getting some of my needs met but sometimes only vanilla sex will satisfy those parts of me.

So fuck it, I'm kinky as fuck all of the time I guess. Or at least not normal. How can you love someone so much it hurts your soul to see her even pout but also treat her harshly enough to make her cry?

 

[Betticus]

Also, I think this satisfies my once a quarter serious answer to a serious bdsm question.

I admit that I did not read any of the other responses yet. Just had to blurt out my $0.02.

 

[ownedsubgal]

the terms kinky and vanilla are very very subjective. i define vanilla as "normal", status quo, generally socially acceptable, etc. i define kink as sexual/erotic activities done for the purpose of mutual FUN. and by that definition, nothing in my life would qualify as kinky. it's actually a word i very much dislike, it has a light-hearted, playtime sort of connotation that i just can't relate to.

so, my life isn't vanilla, and it isn't kinky. relationship-wise i'd call us "traditional" or archaeic, sexually, we're perverted.

 

[00Syd]

Of course the line moves around for everybody, but for me kinky is the stuff that just not everyone does, the stuff that gets lampooned in movies as weird, the stuff that people joke about, but whisper about when they realize someone actually does it, anything from a spanking to extreme SM. Only when the power exchange is thrown in there does it becomes something a bit more than just plain old kinky, and thats what really freaks out the normals.