"Earn the right", can this mess with the subs mindset? Debate!

[Kathykitten]

NB!: This is not about whether a sub should earn the orgasm or not, we all mostly agree they should. This is about how you go about when you put this in words, and how it can negatively or positively affect the sub and enforce her mindset!



I wanted to start a debate on this, as I have been pondering on the subject for a while! Maybe I am out on a limb here, but I’d really like some thoughts on this =)


It is very common that a submissive needs to earn the privilege to cum, but what do we put in the mind of a sub when we express it verbally by using words such as “earn”?

Let’s explore!

The one in charge is always in control of the submissives’ pleasure. the sub has slowly given the stronger part trust and begun to let go of the control of their own life and actions. They have begun to truly enjoy the sovereignity of the one charge. The master or mistress gets to decide: when, where, how, how much etc, often depending on the submissives’ performance of the day. But what happens when you verbally explain to a slut that they need to earn it?

Let’s take an example:

“You need to earn this orgasm, if you do really well you might deserve it”. This is naturally what the Dom feels and has in mind (and what is correct), but what will the submissive think now? Perhaps something like this? :

"okey, its up to me… my actions, I need to act and take control to make this happen" But wait a minute… Take control? Can this put the sub back in the control of his / her own pleasure?


Part of the biggest joy for some subs is to relinquish control and take orders, loosing complete power over a situation. To be able to beg and still not receive, for no particular reason at all.
Is it not possible that by using such terminology we force the sub to retake the control we keep asking him / her to relinquish for us? And thus create an emotional conflict?

We say it is to help them learn to serve, and a submissives greatest focus should always be to serve. He /she should indeed have to earn their pleasure and orgasms. While this is entirely true, perhaps by shifting our words around we can avoid some of the conflicting subconscious signals, but still enforce their servitude? Could these be good examples of simple shifts that might not conflict in the same way? :

“You could get to orgasm tonight if it would please me.” You still indicate that you want their utmost, but you dont suggest that you want anything else but their total commitment and submitting.


Or how about this one, simply hearing: (and I have found this to be far more of a mindfuck and turn-on than when the master leaves the responsibility with me)

“no, I don’t feel like it, hold back slut.” No particular reason or motivation behind it other than masters complete control. There should never have to be a reason behind what he does, as a sub it is the only duty to submit totally and fully to master or mistress' orders and control. The very thrill for many is having the power over the situation completely taken away, left to the mercy and musings of another person. This particular example also tells me that if I have not been allowed to cum it does not mean that I have done poorly, or failed, something which to a sub can often be downright depressing or make them wonder what they are doing wrong.



My question is: Do you think that verbalising the need to earn could set back the subs process of relinquishing power and control? Not the fact that the submissive needs to earn it, but the way it is expressed?


Ps: Could it be that this varies a lot from sub to sub, that a very feisty and strong minded sub will enjoy far more “earning” it?

 

[EmpressFi]

my orgasm is not something I "earn". I must ask permission to have one, but it's not my merits as a submissive that tell him to say "okay", it's when he decides he wants it to happen

 

[Recidiva]

I think it screws with people who don't know it's a game and it's entirely subjective and arbitrary.

That is anyone playing that game, not just the sub.

If for instance you decide to play Monopoly...and you are upset that you have to go to jail and it causes emotional damage...

Or if you think the money's real...

Otherwise it's fun if you're into games.

 

[twysted73]

Can go any direction actually...

If she's a gross over-achiever I'd avoid making the bar impossible for fear of truly discouraging her. But I'd have no compunction whatsoever with making her beg, plead, crawl, grovel or perform lewd and/or lascivious acts for them.

If I know her to enjoy having not one shred of control at all I'd let my whim decide her O's fate.
But I know her well. And she absolutely despises long-term denial. (psychological landmine)
It's a hard limit for her so I don't push it. (yet)
My rule for her is "nothing longer then 24 hours".

Nice thread.

 

[Kathykitten]

My rule for her is "nothing longer then 24 hours".

Nice thread.

complete sidenote: That's really sweet of you

 

[ecstaticsub]

I never have to ask permission to have an orgasm. I am multi-orgasmic. He may order me to orgasm at a certain time, but does not deny me orgasms. However, he does own them. There are rules I must follow but I do not earn them.

On the subject of earning a privilige or a thing. He will on occasion tell me that I've been a very good girl so I have earned X,Y or Z. But I have never been told if I do A, B or C then I have earned X, Y or Z.

However, I have on a few rare occasion earned a punishment. But his is never somethng I try to do.

 

[Kathykitten]

my orgasm is not something I "earn". I must ask permission to have one, but it's not my merits as a submissive that tell him to say "okay", it's when he decides he wants it to happen

Edited, I misunderstood what you said hehe.

And yes, this is what I mean as well. He is in control, whether you earn it or not is not his or your focus, it is simply his control, and your lack of it.

Question of the thread then is: Do you think that using words such as "earn" from a master / mistress, can create conflicting signals even though they aren't aware or intending it?

 

[Kathykitten]

I never have to ask permission to have an orgasm. I am multi-orgasmic. He may order me to orgasm at a certain time, but does not deny me orgasms. However, he does own them. There are rules I must follow but I do not earn them.

On the subject of earning a privilige or a thing. He will on occasion tell me that I've been a very good girl so I have earned X,Y or Z. But I have never been told if I do A, B or C then I have earned X, Y or Z.

However, I have on a few rare occasion earned a punishment. But his is never somethng I try to do.

pst, read the top disclaimer I added

 

[the captians wench]

If she's a gross over-achiever I'd avoid making the bar impossible for fear of truly discouraging her. But I'd have no compunction whatsoever with making her beg, plead, crawl, grovel or perform lewd and/or lascivious acts for them.

If I know her to enjoy having not one shred of control at all I'd let my whim decide her O's fate.
But I know her well. And she absolutely despises long-term denial. (psychological landmine)
It's a hard limit for her so I don't push it. (yet)
My rule for her is "nothing longer then 24 hours".

Nice thread.

That very first sentence is what I would like to focas on.

I am very much a service oriented person. I'm also stubborn and a perfectionist. When I am set a task, especially when I am told I can earn something from completing that task, I set out to do it to the best of my ability and beyond what I thought possible. I personally don't think it's the idea of "earning" somthing that messes with some one, but the continued failure to earn something.

Example: I was involved with some one for a while who started our relationship by saying he would never fuck me. Kay, fine, I knew were the boundries were. A few weeks into the relationship he decided that I could earn the right to be fucked by him if I completed a task. The task was to find him another sub to play with. So I set out to do it and day after day I heard him tell me how disapointing I was because I could not do this. After a week I found some one to play with us. This however was not good enough, she did not meet his needs and therefore it was determined that I did not earn my prize, and the assignment was amended to add that he wanted a different girl to play with every day. This girl also had to be availible when he was availible which was hours most people are at work. It was an impossible task, as he wouldn't meet them before hand, and he expected them to be ready to play when he walked in the door.

I did find a few to agree to this, but it wasn't good enough. I was a failure. I wasn't good enough to earn his cock. I didn't deserve the beatings I got, I didn't deserve his time or pressence. It really fucked with my head. I felt worthless and useless, like I would never be deserving of licking the dirt off of his boots. I lost all confidence in myself. I stopped going out, stopped exersizing, started eating like shit, and devoted all of my time to his task. I barely slept, I was misserable and lived in fear every day that he would decide that I didn't deserve him at all and leave.

It took a friend to point out that I wasn't getting what I needed anyway so why was I so worried he'd leave?I still have scars from that bullshit he fed me.

On the other hand, Jounar has always had me earn orgasms or special treats with him. The difference is that I can reach the goals he sets. They're not always easy, but they are always attainable. He praises me and tells me how proud he is of me every time I reach a target. He's constantly reasuring me and making me feel good about what I do for him and who I am. In this case, he's building me by making me earn things, not breaking me down.

So I don't think it's so much the fact that you have to earn something that messes with a person's head, but the attainiblity of the reward, and how you respond to failure.

 

[WriterDom]

Why deny someone something that I enjoy? I would think their service to me is enough to earn it.

 

[YourCaptor]

I have always done something kind of like this. I call it positive reinforcement. If the sub/slave does something I like their is a chance she will be rewarded for it. It could be anything, their are no specifics, and no the reward must no immediate follow the action. Humans are smarter then dogs, I can tell them why they are getting something. It, results in the sub/slave performing overall that much better, and it great to see the look on their face when I tell them they will get a reward for something.

I don't limit their pleasure though, they don't actually have to earn it. I just do to them what I like, if they have an orgasm in the process, even better, I like happy twitchy subies. A reward though is still something to look forward too, because those are extra special.

 

[intothewoods]

Um, maybe? We don't do this - do x, y and z and you get to cum. He actually isn't into control of my orgasms at all. I think the reason for this is that we both like them. He's more attracted to having me do things that are outside of my comfort zone. It seems silly, but ordering me to wash his hands is a lot hotter to me than ordering me to cum. I mean, I'm going to cum when we have sex. That's an ending everyone can predict. But washing his hands? Who knew he'd come up with that one?

 

[Homburg]

Why deny someone something that I enjoy? I would think their service to me is enough to earn it.

Quoted for truth.

 

[BiBunny]

Why deny someone something that I enjoy? I would think their service to me is enough to earn it.

No shit.

No sense in jumping through hoops if you don't have/need/want to. I just can't get into the headgame aspect of it, honestly.

 

[Netzach]

I'm bad news for all but special weird people.

I like to make it clear that it's all about my very arbitrary whim. I may call H every hour on the hour and make him whack it. I may prohibit it for a month. His behavior has nothing to do with it - it's all me and what I feel like. But you have nailed one thing that's never appealed to me about punishment/reward carrot/stick thinking. I prefer something a little less easy for my sub to get their head around.

 

[Kathykitten]

That very first sentence is what I would like to focas on.

I am very much a service oriented person. I'm also stubborn and a perfectionist. When I am set a task, especially when I am told I can earn something from completing that task, I set out to do it to the best of my ability and beyond what I thought possible. I personally don't think it's the idea of "earning" somthing that messes with some one, but the continued failure to earn something.

Example: I was involved with some one for a while who started our relationship by saying he would never fuck me. Kay, fine, I knew were the boundries were. A few weeks into the relationship he decided that I could earn the right to be fucked by him if I completed a task. The task was to find him another sub to play with. So I set out to do it and day after day I heard him tell me how disapointing I was because I could not do this. After a week I found some one to play with us. This however was not good enough, she did not meet his needs and therefore it was determined that I did not earn my prize, and the assignment was amended to add that he wanted a different girl to play with every day. This girl also had to be availible when he was availible which was hours most people are at work. It was an impossible task, as he wouldn't meet them before hand, and he expected them to be ready to play when he walked in the door.

I did find a few to agree to this, but it wasn't good enough. I was a failure. I wasn't good enough to earn his cock. I didn't deserve the beatings I got, I didn't deserve his time or pressence. It really fucked with my head. I felt worthless and useless, like I would never be deserving of licking the dirt off of his boots. I lost all confidence in myself. I stopped going out, stopped exersizing, started eating like shit, and devoted all of my time to his task. I barely slept, I was misserable and lived in fear every day that he would decide that I didn't deserve him at all and leave.

It took a friend to point out that I wasn't getting what I needed anyway so why was I so worried he'd leave?I still have scars from that bullshit he fed me.

On the other hand, Jounar has always had me earn orgasms or special treats with him. The difference is that I can reach the goals he sets. They're not always easy, but they are always attainable. He praises me and tells me how proud he is of me every time I reach a target. He's constantly reasuring me and making me feel good about what I do for him and who I am. In this case, he's building me by making me earn things, not breaking me down.

So I don't think it's so much the fact that you have to earn something that messes with a person's head, but the attainiblity of the reward, and how you respond to failure.

I feel so very much for you with this case... That is truly an ass from start till finish, who was to damn lazy to do any work himself, and only knew how to abuse you.

Really glad that you have found a Dom that knows how to appreciate and take care of you. I don't think I could have gone back to bdsm after an experience like that.

 

[the captians wench]

I dont think the idea is so much about orgasms here but just the idea of having to earn something. I do not make any secrets about Jounar controling my orgasms, but that is not usually the reward I get unless we are playing some sort of game. More often he will reward me with a request of my choosing what ever that may be. Of course if he had decided to not permit me an orgasms for a month or so then I may request that but its rare that I make such a small request. Mostly I will ask for time with him on cam or phone or photos of him. He spends all day on the phone at work so he hates talking on the phone when he is off so for him to do so with me is a very special treat.

The point is not so much what the prize is here but if even offering a prize is something " healthy" or " safe" for a Dom to do.

And KK, thank you

 

[Homburg]

See, I dislike the whole concept of setting up some sort of "earning" thing. Doing it for a one-off game or somesuch would be fine, but setting up that idea as a constant sets up weird expectations. "If you do X, I will reward you with Y". No thanks. I don't like expectations of that sort. I like "Serve me to your utmost, and I will treat you as I see fit".

 

[ownedsubgal]

i don't get the whole merit system thing in general, but then maybe that's because i'm a slave. my Master doesn't believe in rewarding a slave for doing only what is expected and demanded of them anyway, and i wouldn't feel comfortable with being rewarded for such. if he decides to treat me at any particular time, it may be either for doing something extraordinary...above and beyond expectations...or sort of a pat on the back for a cumulative, long term "good job."

regardless though, an orgasm would not be considered a reward. it's not something i desire or crave, haven't had one in many years and cannot say that i miss it beyond curiousity's sake...sort of like rhubarb cobbler, i remember eating it as a child but can't recall the taste, whether i liked it or not, would be curious to try it again someday. the same can be said for me of orgasms.

orgasm control/denial/etc. is also not something that's ever been an interest of my Master's. He wants someone to serve and please him out of a drive to do so, and not out of any desire for some selfish (by his standards) physical release.

i do agree somewhat however with the general premise expressed in the thread...that by the Dominant stating that the submissive must "earn" this or that, that is really placing power and control in the hands of the submissive, where if we're talking about serious D/s it really should not be.

 

[Kathykitten]

The point is not so much what the prize is here but if even offering a prize is something " healthy" or " safe" for a Dom to do.

And KK, thank you

Exactly, thats what im curious about, and It's really interesting to follow the posts here!

And you are more than welcome hun

 

[Kathykitten]

i do agree somewhat however with the general premise expressed in the thread...that by the Dominant stating that the submissive must "earn" this or that, that is really placing power and control in the hands of the submissive, where if we're talking about serious D/s it really should
not be.

Aye, and I am just very curious as to whether this is actually true, or if it's just me getting those conflicting emotions where I end up getting confused between the desire to let go and submit, and the desire to server.

And you have not orgasmed in years...? You say it is not anything you care much about, in which case its of course all good I would just think that the master at least would want to give you such experiences.

 

[the captians wench]

if he decides to treat me at any particular time, it may be either for doing something extraordinary...above and beyond expectations...or sort of a pat on the back for a cumulative, long term "good job."
.

This is what I'm driving at. When Jounar rewards me, it's not usually from a set up of "Do this and I'll reward you" it's most often from something that I've done that's beyond what he normally asks of me that he apreciates greatly. Example: We were doing another Pirates of the Caribean happy meal toy at work. I got one of each toy in the set and sent it to him. I know what a Pirates freak he is, and I know how he flips out because we get such cool stuff to give away, so I sent it. When he recieved the package, he enjoyed the gifts so much he told me to name my reward. I insisted that I did not send those things to be rewarded, I did it because I thought he would enjoy them. But he would hear none of my resistance and if he truely wanted to show gratitude to his girl, that is his perogitive.

There have also been times when I've pushed myself in a certain activity past a point where a limit once was. In these moments, he's so proud of me he wishes to show me in some form, so again I get some sort of treat.

I don't like the "do this and I'll give you that" set up, it feels like just that to me, a set up. This probably has a lot to do with the my past experience, but in general I just don't think it's right. Like Netz said carrot on a stick. I don't need a reward to drive me. I'm here serving because that's what fulfils me, not to get some reward.

 

[YourCaptor]

sort of like rhubarb cobbler, i remember eating it as a child but can't recall the taste, whether i liked it or not, would be curious to try it again someday.

You got to have some, its so good! Their is this old rhubarb dish from my child hood that I still make, it's kind of like a toping for other things. The rhubarb isn't totally ripe yet this season, and its so much more expensive. Worth it though.

I would highly recommend it.

 

[softnsassy]

I don't see anything wrong with allowing a sub to earn a reward - it is no different from earning a punishment from not complying. In the initial stages of the relationship, the Dom earns a sub's trust through these rewards. Personally, I couldn't submit to a Dom whose behavior was entirely arbitrary. A Dom's behavior must make sense to me in someway - not to say he can't occasionally arbitrary, but it must be limited. As for giving me control by earning a reward - the Dom is still in control in that he gets to decide whether a reward should be give and gets to establish what kind of reward.

shortnsassy

 

[rida]

Not orgasm, but something else.

I had to earn the use of lube for anal. Having to earn it didn't put any of the power in my hands at all. Ultimately it only meant that he had heard my request and if he deemed fit would have complied with it.

I failed, not for lack of desire or effort. He took his pleasure in a different way. Still, lube was not used. It is his prerogative.

I wonder thou if the fact that it messes with the submissive mind or not depend on what she has to earn it and how.
If it comes down to her having to take initiative and DO something, I can see that it could get confusing. But if it is just a question of "when I am really pleased with you I might consider giving in with your requests", I don't see the problem. It would just make the submissive even more eager to please.