Born gay?

[MechaBlade]

Are people born gay or straight? Are they born asexual and come into their sexual orientation in prepubescent childhood? What do you think?

Sorry if this topic has been done before, but I couldn't find anything.

 

[sunandshadow]

Current research is pretty much all on the 'born gay' side.

 

[emap]

Really? Last I heard they were saying that it happens at some point after birth. Which rather sounds right to me, I mean how exactly is a not born baby going to determine which sex it is attracted to.

There are a number of factors, hormones being only part of it. Apparently parents, siblings, early friends and what we learn from TV are all factors in our sexuality. So yes it is possible to be born with a tendency of gay straight or bi, what happens to us after that push us one way or the other.

Of course it is possible to swing back to where we started, it is commonish for older men who's wives died first to turn gay, same with older women.

Most likely for the next 2-300 years it would be best to simply say we don't know if people are born gay or not.

 

[BritPup]

No such data

 

[Anniejustagirl]

An interesting study

Doesn't answer the question of 'born gay' but it's thought provoking

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1815538,00.html

What makes people gay? Biologists may never get a complete answer to that question, but researchers in Sweden have found one more sign that the answer lies in the structure of the brain.

Scientists at the Karolinska Institute studied brain scans of 90 gay and straight men and women, and found that the size of the two symmetrical halves of the brains of gay men more closely resembled those of straight women than they did straight men. In heterosexual women, the two halves of the brain are more or less the same size. In heterosexual men, the right hemisphere is slightly larger. Scans of the brains of gay men in the study, however, showed that their hemispheres were relatively symmetrical, like those of straight women, while the brains of homosexual women were asymmetrical like those of straight men. The number of nerves connecting the two sides of the brains of gay men were also more like the number in heterosexual women than in straight men.

Just what these brain differences mean is still not clear. Ever since 1991, when Simon LeVay first documented differences in the hypothalamus of gay and straight men, researchers have been struggling to understand what causes these differences to occur. Until now, the brain regions that scientists have come to believe play a role in sexual orientation have been related to either reproduction or sexuality. The Swedish study, however, is the first to find differences in parts of the brain not normally involved in reproduction — the denser network of nerve connections, for example, was found in the amygdala, known as the emotional center of the brain. "The big question has always been, if the brains of gay men are different, or feminized, as earlier research suggests," says Dr. Eric Vilain, professor of human genetics at University of California Los Angeles, "then is it just limited to sexual preference or are there other regions that are gender atypical in gay males? For the first time, in this study it looks like there are regions of the brain not directly involved in sexuality that seem to be feminized in gay males."

Vilain, who studies the genetic factors behind sexuality and sexual orientation, notes that it may turn out that the brains of gay men possess only some 'feminized' structures, while retaining some masculine ones, and this is reflected in how they act on their sexuality. "We know from studies that men, regardless of their sexual orientation, retain masculine characteristics when it comes to their sexual behavior," he says. Both gay and straight men, for example, tend to prefer younger partners, in contrast to women, who gravitate toward older partners. Most men are also more likely than women to engage in casual sex, and to be aroused by visual stimuli. "So I expect that some regions of the brain will remain masculine even in gay men," says Vilain. For something as complex as sexual orientation, it's no surprise that everything from genes to gender to environment may play a role in ultimately determining your perfect partner.

 

[sunandshadow]

I'm not personally interested in building an argument in favor of people being born gay, but the study Annie sites is just the most recent of the evidence that homosexuality has a solid biological basis, which in turn points to a genetic basis, although it's also possible that womb environment and social interactions could be involved. But if someone is interested in reading about biological evidence and possible genetic causes of homosexuality, a good place to start would probably be Simon LeVay's first book The Sexual Brain.
http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Brain-Bradford-Books/dp/0262620936 If you can find the old Discover magazine article about LeVay's study, I thought that was the most thorough yet easy to read explanation of it.

I'll add one note, if you get to the part about the brain dissections, one of the major questions when that was published was whether the male homosexual brain examples were damaged because they were from aids victims while the others weren't. This particular issue was proven in a later comparative study to not be an issue.

The major counter-evidence to theorizing that homosexuality is genetic is the fact that the human genome project did not turn up anything resembling a gay gene. My personal opinion is that there are going to turn out to be not one but several gay genes (including transgender ones), they will be mostly 'crossover errors' between the X and Y chromosome, and each gene will probably be linked to some stereotypical 'type' of person. And I think the evidence will turn up first through the research being done on homosexuality in animals, where nurture is largely removed as a factor and smaller animal populations are likely to each contain only one or two 'gay genes', not the many variants to be found in the 6+ billion worldwide human population.

 

[Wolfman1982]

To me it is sorry for cursing , fucking old news . Since it happens while the foetus is in the womb, and that just makes me smile since then the imbecile fanatic Christians get some gay kids too. And they can´t do shit about it without getting in trouble with the law, at least here in Denmark.

But if I remember right, then I knew about the being born gay for about three years (or more, since I can´t remember exact), and back then I was in an extremely verbal fight with a homophobe and his partner. And at the time I had read the wikipedia article about the theory, and it sounded like good money. And he didn´t doubt me, which I am quite happy about

Anyway it is old news , at least to me it is.

Plays Pet Shop Boys - It´s A Sin (no it is not a sin to be gay, it is just a man made fucked up fact).

 

[none2_none2]

I don't think they will ever find one definitive answer for sexuality period and that suites me just fine. What if they found the following four permutations:

1) gay gene guy doing gay sex/love.
2) gay gene guy doing str8 sex/love
3) non-gay gene guy doing gay sex/love.
4) non-gay gene guy doing str8 sex/love


Would it be so horrible if the gay gene guy did stra8 sex/love OR if the non-gay gene guy did gay sex/love. I think the bottom line is if they are happy and not hurting anybody, what difference does it make.

 

[Wolfman1982]

I don't think they will ever find one definitive answer for sexuality period and that suites me just fine. What if they found the following four permutations:

1) gay gene guy doing gay sex/love.
2) gay gene guy doing str8 sex/love
3) non-gay gene guy doing gay sex/love.
4) non-gay gene guy doing str8 sex/love


Would it be so horrible if the gay gene guy did stra8 sex/love OR if the non-gay gene guy did gay sex/love. I think the bottom line is if they are happy and not hurting anybody, what difference does it make.

Well, that is a good point too. And frankly I really do not give a crap about all those labels and such. Since we are all human beings, and if we could behave. Maybe then we would have a better world. Since we are all humans, and we all bleed the same and so forth.

 

[MechaBlade]

Interesting articles and opinions. For BritPup, I was referring to just homosexual versus hetero, bisexual, or pomosexual.

It doesn't really matter in terms of labels. Consenting adults should love who they love. I just wanted some opinions/data on how we come to be who we are, since I spend so much time on the Internet arguing with people that think homosexuality is a "choice."

 

[Etoile]

I think people have different reasons for preferring non-heterosexual behavior. Some do it by choice - http://www.queerbychoice.com/ - and some are born gay. Some start out straight and become gay, or vice versa.

I don't think I believe in a gay gene, because there would be a LOT of people who didn't have the gene but were gay anyway. You can't say YES THERE IS or NO THERE ISN'T without there being too many exceptions on either side.

 

[emap]

What the gorgeous gal above me said.

I mean when you really start looking at things it stops making sense anyway. Would anyone be surprised that a woman who loves climbing tree's, working on cars and playing video games is homosexual?

Would anyone be surprised if she isn't? Cause I'm not, I like women but I like men and their appendages better.

I've met pretty darn feminine men, they didn't like men besides as friends, they only wanted women in bed with them. If you didn't know them though you would so swear they were gay.

 

[gloriann]

I believe it is genetic and/or biological, but, of course, in our society, and in many others, external factors play a part.

 

[Wolfman1982]

Why I am a supporter of the kids are either born gay and so forth. Is because it is in the womb, the child either becomes a transsexual , get Asbergers Syndrome , or for that matter becomes gay, bisexual and etc. Well, the foetus gets all the hormones. And there is nothing the parents can do about it. And there is NO "gay gene" at all !

But back to the main point of this message, we are all humans. And Etolie is a damn fine great looking woman, whom I would love to speak with, and entertain, you name it. And I couldn´t care less that she was a lesbian. As Eddie Murphy said in one his moments in the Raw standup comedy show which was about gay men but none the less I am going to use it in another way but not in any offensive way . You can do everything with a gay man or gay woman. Except have sex with them. Meaning, if you are heterosexual then you can do everything with the gay people. Except sleeping with them. But then again, some of us are that lucky, we get turned on by men . And some say they are straight, even though they are doing it with men. And they are enjoying it with men, and I believe them bigtime. And the same goes with straight women who likes having sex with women, and they are straight. I believe them also.

Well, I am bisexual but I prefer women over men, but anyway I take people as they are. Not what they have of labels.

I will copy the lyrics to this song which I am going give a link to.

And I will mark the parts of the song, which seems fitting here.
But then again the whole song is about karma

Savage Garden - Affirmation

I believe the sun should never set upon an argument
I believe we place our happiness in other people's hands
I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem
I believe I'm loved when I'm completely by myself alone

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love 'til you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye


I believe you can't control or choose your sexuality
I believe that trust is more important than monogamy
I believe your most attractive features are your heart and soul
I believe that family is worth more than money or gold
I believe the struggle for financial freedom is unfair
I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love 'til you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe forgiveness is the key to your unhappiness
I believe that wedded bliss negates the need to be undressed
I believe that God does not endorse tv evangelists
I believe in love surviving death into eternity

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love 'til you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye
Until you say goodbye

 

[BritPup]

Like it or not, for many people there is a choice element in same-sex behaviour. In A N Other thread we've been talking about apparently straight people who choose to do homosexual acts -prisoners, actors, sexual dabblers, etc. I wonder what their brains would have looked like?

Genetics, I am sure, plays a role. When we were a tearaway bunch of kids looking at porn mags that we'd nicked from bigger brothers, I distinctly remember the littlest kid wondering why his "whistle was getting stiff" when looking at the naked women (and he knew nothing about where babies came from). That led me to believe that something pre-programmed was at work. And I've spoken to lots of gay guys who knew from a very early age that they didn't like the roles that society had for men.

I'm sure it's NOT a gay|straight gene on/off switch though. The same nature-nurture argument affects every area of psychology. I look at it like this: Nature equips each of us with a varying set of capabilities and Society shapes how we use them, and our Self does it's best to choose what feels right/pleasant within those two constraints.

The last two aspects are variable, and that explains to me why some people can be straight for 50 years, lose a life partner and then 'become gay'. And a whole bunch of other aspects of sexuality.

 

[none2_none2]

Like it or not, for many people there is a choice element in same-sex behaviour. In A N Other thread we've been talking about apparently straight people who choose to do homosexual acts -prisoners, actors, sexual dabblers, etc. I wonder what their brains would have looked like?

Genetics, I am sure, plays a role. When we were a tearaway bunch of kids looking at porn mags that we'd nicked from bigger brothers, I distinctly remember the littlest kid wondering why his "whistle was getting stiff" when looking at the naked women (and he knew nothing about where babies came from). That led me to believe that something pre-programmed was at work. And I've spoken to lots of gay guys who knew from a very early age that they didn't like the roles that society had for men.

I'm sure it's NOT a gay|straight gene on/off switch though. The same nature-nurture argument affects every area of psychology. I look at it like this: Nature equips each of us with a varying set of capabilities and Society shapes how we use them, and our Self does it's best to choose what feels right/pleasant within those two constraints.

The last two aspects are variable, and that explains to me why some people can be straight for 50 years, lose a life partner and then 'become gay'. And a whole bunch of other aspects of sexuality.

I remember being attracted to body hair when I was 4 years old. I remember in my early years having dreams about guys on all fours with their asses bare and prominent between the ages of 8-10. I remember peeing with my grandpa in his work shed that had no toilets and several neighbor boys doing it over an outside stair well. I don't remember there penises at all as it left no impression. Maybe their is a primitive body hair attraction gene. I never was rapped or anything as a kid. I had no idea what fucking was until way in my teens. I was further confused in my sheltered early life because the straight sex talk made it sound to me like a woman's orgasm was about "milking" the penis. (I knew nothing about thrusting on the part of the male, so I thought anal sex was not only unnatural but non-orgasmic.) Still I was drawn to certain guys' behinds. Even when I started gay sex, I didn't get to fuck for two years. Until that point, I was still confused as to whether I was gay or not. Sucking sucked, j/o was boreing, and getting fucked made me wish I was a lesbian in an enclave where no penises could be found for miles. Finally, I got to fuck a guy's ass. To me it is the closest thing to heaven on earth. If I have a gay gene, it must be one of those rare weird ones

My favorite sayings has always been:

"Everytime a butch, hairy, muscular man gets fucked, an angel earns his wings"

-- "It's a Wonderful Life" (1946)

 

[blueyz22]

If it feels good, do it!

 

[BritPup]

If it feels good, do it!

If it doesn't feel good, keep trying it until it does!

 

[pa-guy]

Personally, I've always felt/believed its more of a scale. Sure you're predisposed to one side or the other, and some significantly more than others, but other factors have an effect on the outcome.

 

[bisexualsmoker]

This whole debate is just too much for me to think about.

If I had to make a profound statement I would say.

Go with the flow.Blah blah blah

Best wishes for all!
It's an easy philosophy.