Nationalism

[keeblercrumb]

One of those nights on Saturday...

A long afternoon on Tverskaya watching the girls go by followed by watching The Game on the big screen inside at the cafe... For those of you back in the other 10% of the world, "The Game" was Russia's stunning upset of the Netherlands in the Euro2008 soccer quarter-finals.

But this isn't about football of any kind, really.

This week I have been feeling very depressed about Russia and it's future..

Business is booming, the price of oil, lumber, even potash is sky rocketing with billions flowing into the pockets of the Oligarchs and government officials who "protect" the nation's resources.

But this week Moscow lost it's remarkable and outrageous local gonzo newspaper "The eXile".... The paper was shut down following an "inspection" by the local constabulary of some branch of the government. The sponsors of this newspaper which had been ripping everyone a new asshole for some 11 years... ran for the hills and the paper died. The next step would be assassinations and everyone here knows that.

Not so much different then late 19th century America, really. But that was probably depressing too.

The information and a beautiful obit for The eXile was printed in the much more serious "Moscow Times" newspaper. This paper is printing a series of articles on the issues facing Russia. This week's article was on corruption... estimated to be some $315 billion a year in Russia. There was even a price list printed for bribes... Wonder how long that paper will last? Any bets?

In a small article published before Russia's earlier upset of Sweden in the Euro cup...it was noted that a named Oligarch would (and did) pay an incentive of 10,000,000 Euro’s to the team if they beat Sweden. Hmmmm. Possibilities for corruption here?

But that is not what this is about either... just background for my next observation..

What is there here to be "proud of"? The Czars? Stalin? Afghanistan? Chechnya? But they are proud, of course. And why not? They are Russians...

Following the soccer victory, some 200,000 people took to the streets at 2:00 am to wave flags and chant "Russ-iy-ya"!! A burst of national pride that was hard not to get wrapped up in... drunk as I was walking down the street with thousands of my new best friends. Hell.. I even forgot I was quietly rooting for the Dutch, Amsterdam being the center of civilization for the planet Earth....

So THIS is what I want to talk about.... "National Pride". We all have it... it is instinctual... tribalism is deep in our genetic character... a trait we share with most mammals and certainly higher primates...

There are many here who would describe themselves as Patriotic and can (and do) go on for hours about the philosophical justifications for THEIR national pride, wholly ignoring minor little embarrassments such as slavery and the like..... (I do NOT want to talk politics... choose another thread!)…

But the hard, cold truth as evidenced by those crazed Ruskies on Saturday night is that 99% of us have national pride because we were simply born there.

I would like to think it is all innocent fun and sports and all that… But there is something that strikes me as sinister in this nationalism… something that makes nations militaristic and aggressive….

And now we have the Olympics again….. and despite the stated ideals, there is an enormous amount of flag waving, etc.. National Pride, in other words.

Think it is about “sportsmanship”? Check out the breathless medal count in YOUR country each day…. And talk to me about sportsmanship.

Is it something in our nature we should struggle against? Or should we embrace it as a kind of “war by proxy” thing?

I honestly don’t know….. But it depresses me. Thank God for the girls walking by… and even more for the ones who stop….

-KC

 

[colddiesel]

A couple of years ago I saw a grainy old black and white film of incomparably the most famous display of nationalism in sport. This was when The USSR was drawn to play Hungary in the Ice Hockey in the 1956 Winter Olympics. This match took place just after the Russians had ridden their tanks into Budapest shooting every freedom fighter in sight to restore the hated communist government.

The Hungarian players came out and attacked the more talented Russians with everything they had. Even by Ice Hockey's standards it was brutal. The Russians tried to respond in kind but they had no chance The Hungarians fought with utter savagery breaking every rule ever thought of and then some.

It was the Nationalism of the cornered rat and it worked. The next day if you read the old papers a few commentaters expressed outrage at the destruction of sportsmanship but privately almost every body who watched that game knew for a moment what it was like to be a Hungarian. They had been utterly humiliated as a nation but that hockey team got up off the floor and trashed the bully nation - and the world loved them for it.

Terrible nationalistic behavior but completely human.

 

[rgraham666]

I'd have no problem with nationalism, with tribalism, if it extended to the entire human species.

Unfortunately it never does. It always devolves into 'us, the good guys' vs. 'them, the embodiment of evil upon this earth'.

I suspect it also has to do with lack of freedom. Nationalism becomes a sop to the individual's ego. In a place where a person is little more than property as it is in Russia and, increasingly, here, a person has to take pride in being property or go insane.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

KEEBLER

I just read a wonderful old book by Colin Turnbull: MOUNTAIN PEOPLE.

Turnbull lived with an obscure tribe who practiced a suicidal and sadistic sort of anarchism within their society. His report is disturbing. Like, parents used small children as bait to attract animals. The animal killed/devoured the child, and dad killed the animal for food. Children were generally emancipated at 3 years to fend for themselves, and child prostitution was a hot career for most little girls. Most women were dead by 18 because of diseases.

But when the government removed people from that tribe the people always went back.

 

[trysail]

... The Moscow Times... This week's article was on corruption... estimated to be some $315 billion a year in Russia. There was even a price list printed for bribes... Wonder how long that paper will last? Any bets?

Is this it?
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1010/42/368400.htm
What do you think of Medvedev's announced assault on corruption?

Are there other on-line sources of Russian news that you recommend? I look at The Moscow Times frequently and I occasionally look at Ria-Novosti (but take anything they say with a large grain of salt). Do you think Itar-Tass or Vedomosti are worth looking at?

Ah, Russia— Churchill's perpetual riddle, mystery and puzzle.

In my now five-year experience, LUKoil appears to "talk the talk" and "walk the walk" (i.e., they've been straight). When I request financial statements, U.S. GAAP reports arrive promptly (sometimes by overnight express). As far as I know, nobody has detected any improprieties or self-dealing.

As you know (and better than most), Russia has no historic tradition of democracy. In that sense, the country is and will likely remain something of an experiment.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Nationalism is nothing but the vestiges of ethnocentrism. It's like international High School Boosterism.

The rubes yelling "USA!!" at the Olympics are embarrassing.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

KEEBLER

I just read a wonderful old book by Colin Turnbull: MOUNTAIN PEOPLE.

Turnbull lived with an obscure tribe who practiced a suicidal and sadistic sort of anarchism within their society. His report is disturbing. Like, parents used small children as bait to attract animals. The animal killed/devoured the child, and dad killed the animal for food. Children were generally emancipated at 3 years to fend for themselves, and child prostitution was a hot career for most little girls. Most women were dead by 18 because of diseases.

But when the government removed people from that tribe the people always went back.

I remember that book. There was a lot of controversy about it. Turnbull visited the Ik after they'd been forcibly relocated and during a famine when their society was falling apart. He was accused of using biased data to make them look worse than they were.

Their tribal name didn't help either.

It was a cool book though, a great study of a culture in total collapse.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Double post deleted

 

[keeblercrumb]

Is this it?
http://www.moscowtimes.ru/article/1010/42/368400.htm
What do you think of Medvedev's announced assault on corruption?

Are there other on-line sources of Russian news that you recommend? I look at The Moscow Times frequently and I occasionally look at Ria-Novosti (but take anything they say with a large grain of salt). Do you think Itar-Tass or Vedomosti are worth looking at?

Ah, Russia— Churchill's perpetual riddle, mystery and puzzle.

In my now five-year experience, LUKoil appears to "talk the talk" and "walk the walk" (i.e., they've been straight). When I request financial statements, U.S. GAAP reports arrive promptly (sometimes by overnight express). As far as I know, nobody has detected any improprieties or self-dealing.

As you know (and better than most), Russia has no historic tradition of democracy. In that sense, the country is and will likely remain something of an experiment.

That was the article indeed....

And here is the eXile website... in it's death throws.....
http://www.exile.ru/

The cover for their last issue?

A take off on Good night, Good Luck"

"GOOD NIGHT, AND BAD LUCK
IN A NATION TERRORIZED BY ITS OWN GOVERNMENT,
ONE PAPER DARED TO FART IN ITS FACE"

You just gotta love those guys... straight out of the Late Dr. Thompson.. regular columns by the War Nerd and another called Death Porn which described various murder and rape horrors throughout the Federation...

If you have not heard of the War Nerd… you need to. He describes himself as a data entry clerk in Fresno….. But there is some question about that… No question that he is extremely funny and insightful……

As far as English language press…. The Moscow Times has a lot of credibility with me. They have printed some heroic op ed's and pretty straight articles...I really worry that they will not survive but then, they are still here.

There is opposition press but it is very limited and when they get too big they are shut down on “libel” charges or for having pirated software on their computers.. (duhhhh, this IS Russia). And, in the words of Bob Dylan.. ”propaganda is all phony”. Pro and against.

The independent press.... is essential to fighting corruption. Somebody needs to be looking over the government's shoulders.

My hard news about the place is pretty much limited to the Moscow Times… I do watch Russia Today which may be available on your satellite… It is exactly the Government view on things… which can be illuminating if you are not sure which side they are coming down on… It can also be so predictable to be funny.

As for the new President’s initiative on corruption,….. Well the article you cited, I believe (or another in the same issue) addressed that….. Nothing serious, in other words. In the short term it would only raise the price for bribes and after a few months there will be nothing.

Medvedev himself became a billionaire as a result of the Yukos fiasco… Formerly the largest energy company in Russia, it’s oligarch owner opposed Putin politically and is now in jail, his company all but gone, absorbed by the other “government owned” companies.

You must understand, these “government owned” companies are not “nationalized” companies in the sense of the UK, Cuba, Venezuela, etc….. They are not remotely non-profit… only enrich the people which run them, the government guys…

Wonder how Putin became a multi-billionaire having been a civil servant all his career? Don’t.

LUKoil is a private enterprise which was very big in the region I was in (Perm)... They have all learned to play the game.... And maybe they are reasonable investments.... but they all exist at the whim of the boys at the top.... which includes the LUkoil guys, for now.

It is all too depressing….

Following the nightmare of the 90’s when it was wild west time… And the government could not collect taxes at all….. There was truly an opportunity for the country to get it right…. But they went for greed instead.

Someday… perhaps… someday.

-KC

 

[rgraham666]

Isn't that how the Wild West ended up? With a class of oligarchs ruling the place?

Plus ca change and all that.

 

[keeblercrumb]

Isn't that how the Wild West ended up? With a class of oligarchs ruling the place?

Plus ca change and all that.

Da, da, da, da!

Actually, as I noted above, there ARE striking parallels to 19th century America..... (and Britain) But stuff like the graduated income tax and anti-trust legislation brought some degree of sanity to the problem.

These guys favor Reganomics.... don't tax the wealthiest at all, it is good for business.

////Threadjack////

I want it noted somewhere that I invented the chat speak "DDDD" to represent Da, Da, Da, Da... which happens to be one of my very favorite Russian expressions! Vastly superior to Yes, yes, yes yes!

////End Threadjack////
-KC

 

[rgraham666]

Da da da

 

[R. Richard]

A couple of years ago I saw a grainy old black and white film of incomparably the most famous display of nationalism in sport. This was when The USSR was drawn to play Hungary in the Ice Hockey in the 1956 Winter Olympics. This match took place just after the Russians had ridden their tanks into Budapest shooting every freedom fighter in sight to restore the hated communist government.

The Hungarian players came out and attacked the more talented Russians with everything they had. Even by Ice Hockey's standards it was brutal. The Russians tried to respond in kind but they had no chance The Hungarians fought with utter savagery breaking every rule ever thought of and then some.

It was the Nationalism of the cornered rat and it worked. The next day if you read the old papers a few commentaters expressed outrage at the destruction of sportsmanship but privately almost every body who watched that game knew for a moment what it was like to be a Hungarian. They had been utterly humiliated as a nation but that hockey team got up off the floor and trashed the bully nation - and the world loved them for it.

Terrible nationalistic behavior but completely human.

If you think the hockey march was brutal, check out the Hungary USSR water polo match in the summer games. The water polo match was halted with Hungary well ahead. The reason for the halt wasn't just the blood in the water, the Hungarian fans were ready to jump into the pool and finish things once and for all. I have seen films of the event and the faces on the Hungarian fans didn't even look human. As to the Hungarian water polo guys, can you say great white shark?

 

[rengadeirishman]

I'll confess that i hate soccer, i find it ridiculously boring. But when its Ireland or the U.S. i do find myself watching the whole damn game and cheering when appropriate.

not sure why

 

[keeblercrumb]

Nationalism is nothing but the vestiges of ethnocentrism. It's like international High School Boosterism.

The rubes yelling "USA!!" at the Olympics are embarrassing.

Well... that is just it... It is ethnocentrism..... Take the pulse of Russia and China today and you will find this high school boosterism at a frightening level.

And I am not sure if all that boosterism is harmless or not....

The war in Iraq was begun and maintained only through a naked appeal to "patriotism" with barely a nod to any coherent appeal to self-defense. You just have to wonder if this is a by-product of this nationalistic boosterism....

The Russians? The Chinese? Do you feel this sports boosterism is as benign as some exhuberant Dutch may be?

I do not.

-KC

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DOC

Yes. Lots of controversy, except he took photos of what he observed. What he observed seems incredible, but it also rings true. On the other-hand he studied the Pygmie tribe and was favorably impressed with them.

But based on my own experiences with bottom-feeding blacks and whites, I say his book is closer to the truth than not.

 

[Le Jacquelope]

I feel that nationalism is demonized a lot moreso than it deserves to be. For some reason Nationalism is the new N word.

Nationalism takes an ugly turn when it drives a people to invade and crush another nation out of sheer hatred or convenience.

But when you compare a nation like America, where a woman just ran for office, and China, where baby girls are killed en masse because of their perceived lack of worth, the most useful and correct application of nationalism comes into play:

America's culture is superior to theirs. We don't murder baby girls en masse just because they're girls. We don't kill political prisoners for organ donations. We don't shoot pro-democracy demonstrators. We don't need pro-democracy demonstrators - we are a representative democracy. We don't have China's industrial pollution, the demon seed child of their laissez-faire-leaning "enterprise zone" policies that we abandoned with the onset of the EPA, Superfund laws, etc. We don't have a One-Child forced abortion policy. We are better than China.

That is a definition of nationalism and I do not at all believe that kind of nationalism is wrong.

 

[keeblercrumb]

I feel that nationalism is demonized a lot moreso than it deserves to be. For some reason Nationalism is the new N word.

Nationalism takes an ugly turn when it drives a people to invade and crush another nation out of sheer hatred or convenience.

But when you compare a nation like America, where a woman just ran for office, and China, where baby girls are killed en masse because of their perceived lack of worth, the most useful and correct application of nationalism comes into play:

America's culture is superior to theirs. We don't murder baby girls en masse just because they're girls. We don't kill political prisoners for organ donations. We don't shoot pro-democracy demonstrators. We don't need pro-democracy demonstrators - we are a representative democracy. We don't have China's industrial pollution, the demon seed child of their laissez-faire-leaning "enterprise zone" policies that we abandoned with the onset of the EPA, Superfund laws, etc. We don't have a One-Child forced abortion policy. We are better than China.

That is a definition of nationalism and I do not at all believe that kind of nationalism is wrong.

I am sorry.... perhaps I let this slip away a little. I have not intention of debating whose nationalism is more legitimate or morally justifiable... Among other reasons, I am an American and my intincts abide with that...

But here is the point.... If you were not born/raised an American, would you feel this Nationalism is justified for Americans?

Well... the answer is no, whether you want to believe it or not.

This is not a debating society.. this is people chanting USA at the olympics....

I am stunned to learn that Nationalism is being debated anywhere, let has become the new "N" word! I do not remember this subject being mentioned here or in the media anytime in the last 7 years....

But then, I have been out of the country. Please remember, I was talking about Russia... where this Nationalism struck me as scary....

I don't think it is healthy anywhere, and down right dangerous in the Russia's and China's of the world. And frankly, my own country ain't too far down the list.... If you don't think those sporting chants do not unreasonably frighten a lot of people in the world.... well you're wrong again.

Despite what you may assert here, the American perspective on the world is NOT always aligned with our cherished rights, democracy and a belief in human rights . The last President who actually seemed to believe that was Carter... And he is villified for talking to Hamas....

Of course we are tribal and Nationalistic because we are human.

I just do not think it appeals to the better angels within us.

-KC

 

[shereads]

We are better than China.

The question is, what do you get out of expressing this? Or were you just illustrating the thread-starter's point?

We could all make lists of things we fear or despise or hold in contempt about other nations - or tribes, or communities, or sets of beliefs. But what's the point? When the human species was young and scattered, survival may have depended on clinging to one's tribe and being embraced by them. Tribalism may be hard-wired into us. That doesn't make it admirable, or even necessary.

I used to sob like a child when my college football team lost to its arch-rival. I could name any number of reasons why we hated them. Age and distance have made those memories seem childish - not necessarily a bad thing; just part of childhood.

Which is not to say that Clemson doesn't suck. It does.




Edited to address the original topic: I'm only mildly interested in the Olympics. It's difficult not to get caught up in an event that benefits from saturation marketing. But I'm always a little saddened by this global celebration of a Winner-and-Also-Rans culture. And let's face it, it's totallly bogus to pretend that these are all amateur athletes, or that the competition is open to all. It takes a lot of money to equip a budding athlete with the best coaches, equipment, and the freedom to dedicate a majority of his time to practicing his sport.

And you're right, Keebler. Any time I see a large group of people chanting slogans and waving flags, I find it disturbing.

 

[R. Richard]

I used to sob like a child when my college football team lost to its arch-rival. I could name any number of reasons why we hated them. Age and distance have made those memories seem childish - not necessarily a bad thing; just part of childhood.

Which is not to say that Clemson doesn't suck. It does.

When I live in SC, I used to see bumper stickers that read, "My favorite teams are the Gamecocks and whoever plays Clemson this week." "You go to USC, you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny."

 

[shereads]

When I live in SC, I used to see bumper stickers that read, "My favorite teams are the Gamecocks and whoever plays Clemson this week." "You go to USC, you're ugly and your mother dresses you funny."

One of my favorite t-shirt slogans is offered by The Onion:

THE SPORTS TEAM FROM YOUR AREA SUCKS

Tribalism at its most basic.

 

[Liar]

I feel that nationalism is demonized a lot moreso than it deserves to be. For some reason Nationalism is the new N word.

It's those that believe Nationalism = My Country Right Or Wrong that fucks it up.

 

[rgraham666]

It's easier than thinking.

 

[keeblercrumb]

......

Which is not to say that Clemson doesn't suck. It does.

......

"Nobody can lick our Cocks!"

//Threadjack//
To my bud Joe and a diehard Gamecock .. Recovering from spinal surgery today, I hope...back in the southern Carolina..

"I love you, Man! Hurry back, the girls at the Starlight Dinner keep asking about you!"

//End Threadjack//

Back on thread...

And speaking of Nationalism is all the wrong places....

Germany plays Turkey tomorrow... When I was in Germany a week or so ago.. I was struck by how many cars were driving around with Turkish flags flying.. I knew there were a lot of Turks there but I thought they would be a little lowkey in their adopted country...

But then, the Germans won't let them become citizens either...

This could get ugly...



-KC

 

[Liar]

Germany plays Turkey tomorrow... When I was in Germany a week or so ago.. I was struck by how many cars were driving around with Turkish flags flying.. I knew there were a lot of Turks there but I thought they would be a little lowkey in their adopted country...

Stockholm is a very ethnically versatile city, moreso than most European cities, that often have a few dominant immigration ethnicities. We have a considerable population from many of the competing countries in the Euro08. Russia, Turkey, Greece, Croatia, Romania, Germany, Italy, Spain, Poland.... And a whole lot of Dutch and Portuguese exchange students, apparently. Didn't know that.. And for every game, a downtown park with a big screen TV have been host to hoards of fans and flags of every which nation.

Mood has been great so far. No indication of anything turning ugly.