Eat Shit!

[VelvetDarkness]

Master was telling me some of his more depraved fantasies last night. Things escalated as we tried to out-squick each other and Master joked that one day he'd have me eat his shit just to teach me a lesson.

"Thank goodness I trust you not to do that." I said.

"So you think you've got limits now?" He replies.

"Well I know I could never eat your shit. You couldn't make me do it."

"But if you have ceded your limits to me, you don't get to make those decisions. You should be able to say 'I would do anything Master' and trust that I wouldn't make you eat my shit."

"But if I know I could never do it, to say 'I would do anything' and hope that I only get asked to do things that I would have consented to anyway, makes the whole thing meaningless."

"Exactly. You have given yourself to me. There are no half measures. If I set scat as a task for you, you as my property are bound to obey."

"I know I simply couldn't do it. That is the one salient truth to me. To say 'I would do anything' when I know without question that some things are physically and/or mentally beyond me as a slave just feels stupid."

Cue a circular discussion that we haven't resolved yet.

I have a strong faith in my TPE slavery and this flippant discussion has unsettled me and made me question exactly how far my submission goes. There are still some things that I simply couldn't do but I never really considered before quite how far Master could move the goalposts if he wanted to. I don't see the point of saying that my slavery is total when I know that there are still some things that I would have to refuse to do. When I point out to Master that some things would damage me psychologically if I were forced to do them he says that isn't the point. I think it is. I think it falls under his duty of maintenance of his slave and concern for my basic welfare. He insists that this is a completely separate issue. Either I am his property to use however he wishes or I am not.

Incidentally, eating shit was just a handy hypothetical here. It's not a relevant or prescient issue and I still believe that Master has no interest whatsoever in any form of scat.

Thoughts?

P.S. Can I please just head off the 'what if he asked you to kill someone?' comments before they start? I am talking purely in terms of personal service to my Master. If he ever asked me to do something that fell completely outside my moral code I would refuse. I'm a decent human being, not an automaton.

 

[SweetGigi]

I think I am on the fence with this. While I think your slavery should be complete and that you should be willing to do anything he sets before you, I also think he should know where to strictly set limits for you and know exactly what you can and can not do. To push a limit for your betterment is one thing.... to simply make you do something to prove your loyalty is another. A part of me is with you on this one... and another part of me is with him. I, like you, know there are things in this world I can not... simply can NOT do, and if asked to do so would probably damage me severely. However I know that I need to learn to trust him in every way and know he will NEVER push me further than I can go, or willfully break me. Rule number one: Never break your toys. (I hope all that makes sense. If it doesn't, let me know and I'll try to fix it.)

 

[VelvetDarkness]

He wouldn't have me do things simply to prove my trust. I think he just wants to know that I am totally his. Looking back over my OP it could probably be clearer than it is. I can see his point but I also see mine. A large part of me wonders if any of this really matters but it's been troubling me during the day and I think I'm going to have to untangle my conflicting thoughts and feelings on the issue before I'm secure in my place again.

 

[catalina_francisco]

My first thought was this was one of the situations I suggested could happen in TPE in another thread we both participated in where I mentioned (to you I think) that to give up all limits can be brought to a point whereby a PYL may choose to include activities you didn't expect or felt were not acceptable...it is never safe to assume that because there were initially limits and things you believed would never come into consideration that it is how things will stay.

As to how to handle it, everyone differs and it is up to them to decide what is appropriate and what TPE means to them. F didn't accept my offer of TPE straight away as he wanted me to think long and hard and also with the knowledge that to remove limits meant he could introduce anything he wished at any time and I was not to lightly assume I knew what he would ask of me based on behaviour to that point. That was what I agreed to and understood. That being said, there are moments when things are introduced that I cannot just fall to my knees and obey, and something which has raised eyebrows here and gotten me read the 'you must obey' lecture from fellow posters. As you have found out, some things are not that easily accepted and to believe that the desire to obey wins out easily over all other emotions and abilities is hogwash and from the mouths of those who either have never faced it, are lost in fantasy, or have a PYL that just will not set them those challenges.

So how do we handle it? We work on it. A lot of it is about me programming my head over time, trying and trying again, suggesting steps which might help me achieve what he wishes, and perseverance no matter how long it takes, or how difficult. Sometimes I acknowledge defeat and ask him to force me...sometimes he will use force, sometimes he will tell me he is pleased enough that I tried so hard and that it was the primary purpose of the whole exercise, not the successful outcome as was initially imagined by me. While I hate it at times, I would hate it even more if he presented me only with things he felt I could achieve simply because I would feel he was playing to my abilities at the expense of his needs/wants. It could very well be your Master is testing you to see what you do, it could be that he wants to make it a reality, it could be that he doesn't but will in the future, it could be that your resistance will make him even more interested in it than he would normally be.

Catalina

 

[SweetGigi]

He wouldn't have me do things simply to prove my trust. I think he just wants to know that I am totally his. Looking back over my OP it could probably be clearer than it is. I can see his point but I also see mine. A large part of me wonders if any of this really matters but it's been troubling me during the day and I think I'm going to have to untangle my conflicting thoughts and feelings on the issue before I'm secure in my place again.

If it matters to you then it matters. My suggestion is to continue to discuss it with him and have him help you understand his feelings on it. It is his responsibility to do so just as much as it is your responsibility to do the same.

I think you doing just fine. *hugs*

 

[Netzach]

Effective slavery is kind of this weird balance between knowing that your personal abilties, your personal moral code, your limits in the sense of "can't" are somewhere in the back of your D's mind at the same time that you feel that they can and might do anything.

Those things are paradoxical. Personally I like to keep them that way and I'd never let a conversation like this with H turn to more than speculation, certainly not argument.

As much as I love a good argument, this isn't one of those times.

I'd do more listening and mental-note taking. If I had a feeling of "oh yes you would" I'd let him find out, not tell him. If that makes sense. However he reacted, well, I'd go from there. Hypotheticals are kind of important and meaningless at the same time.

The same person who hates needles is another person entirely when you've got three in his ass and he's begging for more. That could also have gone entirely the other way, I'm a smart girl and I knew that going in. I did *ask* him if he wanted them and he did. The moment changes things, in a way that no offhand debate can really frame.

 

[the captians wench]

My thoughts on limits and TPE are that all limits are liquid. When in TPE there is always the chance for a surprize simply because you can not know what's in your partner's head, and tastes grow and vary. What might be considered a absolute no go area now, may become something that is common play later.

Never make a promise you can't keep, my mom used to tell me all the time. To me TPE, at this point, is just that. I don't know that I could do anything he asked of me, I do know that I would try to, but some things that I can picture in my mind, I just can't fully put myself there and therefore may not be able to try hard enough.

 

[LadyC]

One thing I would never consider is having my man-boy eat my shit. The closest I come to such is to have him bathe my anus with his tongue after I have taken a crap. He hates licking my ass when it is in that condition, but he wouldn't dare ask me not to make him do it. This makes the act more pleasurable for me, but I haven't made it a part of our daily routine because he might then learn to enjoy it.

 

[Pure]

the old questions

[deleted]

 

[WriterDom]

One thing I would never consider is having my man-boy eat my shit. The closest I come to such is to have him bathe my anus with his tongue after I have taken a crap. He hates licking my ass when it is in that condition, but he wouldn't dare ask me not to make him do it. This makes the act more pleasurable for me, but I haven't made it a part of our daily routine because he might then learn to enjoy it.

Eating shit is eating shit. So what you are saying is he eats your shit, but in small doses.

 

[FurryFury]

I hate circular arguments with a purple passion. I'm not in a TPE but I've learned a sure fire method to end such an argument. (And may I say, I see this one as particularly dangerous if it continues? Cause what is Mr. Dom going to do to prove his point?)

Here is my no fail method to make the argument cease. Just sincerely say, "Yes, Dear, you are absolutely right."

 

[TenJed69]

My television can't take me to the moon. It's my property, but that doesn't mean it will do something it can't

 

[catalina_francisco]

My television can't take me to the moon. It's my property, but that doesn't mean it will do something it can't

Yep, that really convinces me . Problem is, most people have this fantasy fed idea that to go TPE is OK, until when it gets nasty and difficult and then it can and should be forgotten. Really makes me wonder why there is such a thing if it is about only doing that which is easily possible and no chipped nails into the bargain.

Catalina

 

[Primalex]

My television can't take me to the moon. It's my property, but that doesn't mean it will do something it can't

Of course if I want that my television does something it can't, then I will replace it.

 

[SweetGigi]

Yep, that really convinces me . Problem is, most people have this fantasy fed idea that to go TPE is OK, until when it gets nasty and difficult and then it can and should be forgotten. Really makes me wonder why there is such a thing if it is about only doing that which is easily possible and no chipped nails into the bargain.

Catalina

I think this sorta plays into that thread Marquis had going for a while. The one about the willingness of a slave and the 'no' factor.


I think it has more to do with willingness, a desire to please above all else, than ability.

 

[00Syd]

You know you could never eat shit, you know he might some day order you to but you just couldn't. Well, you also trust him to never make you eat shit and you believe that he has no interest whatsoever in making you do so.

So then this is a non-issue right?

I am in no way a slave, and have never been in a TPE relationship, but the way I see it, you have the lovely knowledge of knowing that you are totally his and that he could make you do anything (except killing anyone, etc.) but the only reason why you ever went into this TPE relationship is because you trust him completely, and that includes trusting him to not make you do anything like eat shit. So you know he won't, but you still know that he could, which is nice. So yeah, this isn't even an argument so much as a circular "you could but you won't but you could" discussion that has no tidy resolution and just seems like a pain in the ass to think about. I don't mean to belittle your feelings on this issue at all, thats just my (admittedly uninformed) opinion of it.

 

[Netzach]

Of course if I want that my television does something it can't, then I will replace it.

I prefer to watch TV on a TV and drive in a car and put food in the fridge. I like harems.

 

[Netzach]

Yep, that really convinces me . Problem is, most people have this fantasy fed idea that to go TPE is OK, until when it gets nasty and difficult and then it can and should be forgotten. Really makes me wonder why there is such a thing if it is about only doing that which is easily possible and no chipped nails into the bargain.

Catalina

Isn't there a point between "easy" and "really boundary-testing repugnant to the soul?"

I kind of like to aim there. I don't care to fight with people's basic natures, rather see what they do well. And do it a lot. Or not a lot and make 'em wait. Or weirdly. Or differently. It remains interesting, but if they really suck at something, I'll just find someone who doesn't, I get my jollies, they get to not have to indulge me on a level they may find totally incomprehensible. Obviously this doesn't work well among a lot of couples, but it's what I like. I enjoy doing things with people who are genuinely game for them, pulling teeth isn't the MO I like most of the time. Maybe once in a while.

 

[Netzach]

You know you could never eat shit, you know he might some day order you to but you just couldn't. Well, you also trust him to never make you eat shit and you believe that he has no interest whatsoever in making you do so.

So then this is a non-issue right?

I am in no way a slave, and have never been in a TPE relationship, but the way I see it, you have the lovely knowledge of knowing that you are totally his and that he could make you do anything (except killing anyone, etc.) but the only reason why you ever went into this TPE relationship is because you trust him completely, and that includes trusting him to not make you do anything like eat shit. So you know he won't, but you still know that he could, which is nice. So yeah, this isn't even an argument so much as a circular "you could but you won't but you could" discussion that has no tidy resolution and just seems like a pain in the ass to think about. I don't mean to belittle your feelings on this issue at all, thats just my (admittedly uninformed) opinion of it.

OMG, exactly.

Exactly.

I've had this conversation in the form of "if you really REALLY wanted me to eat your shit, I would."

"yeah, that's not so much my thing though. And I know where you clock in on it, so that's good enough."

I've had him do outrageously stupid things in public that he doesn't LIKE doing but relishes for the doing of it. That's not "easy" but it's more "him." There's nothing remotely easy about it though, just to see the sweat, blushing, and near pants-wetting dread is a sadistic wet dream.

 

[Primalex]

I prefer to watch TV on a TV and drive in a car and put food in the fridge. I like harems.

But you are simple.

 

[Netzach]

But you are simple.

Probably. Also transported, not eating rotting food and moderately irritated by the TV. Rather than going through TV after TV in hopes of finding something for dinner.

 

[Recidiva]

These conversations make me pretty crabby.

My son asks me questions like "Mom, what would happen if the world were big and orange and square?"

"I have no idea. If the world were big and orange and square, I'd deal with it then. I can't predict how this whole complicated system would behave if that were to happen. We'd probably all die."

It doesn't seem like this is hypothetical in the same way. But it's hypothetical in the unpredictable catastrophic result.

But it does seem it's just as likely that he'd ask you to do it as it is we'd wake up and the earth were big and orange and square.

It doesn't really matter why or who is in "control" of why or why not two people who cared for each other would avoid a catastrophe.

 

[Recidiva]

Okay, I've thought of another way to resolve the logic circle.

He can order you to do anything, true.

You can fail to do things, true.

If he were to order you (avoiding the kill someone question) to create peace in the Middle East by sundown, you would fail to do so.

If you lack the skills or capacity to do something, he is responsible for helping you develop those skills to reach a goal.

You can argue that it's physically possible for you eat shit. Maybe. However, if your body rejects it and you vomit each time, there are reflexes that stop you from complying. If you flee reflexively, same.

The responsibility of making reasonable, reachable and responsible goals if that's your agreement, is up to him.

If however you're just going to argue with unpleasant things before you try, that there's a gauntlet thrown down.

If you fail to do something, he's responsible for that as well. Full responsibility actually still remains with him, you can simply accept that you lack a capacity in the same way that you lack the capacity to create world peace by sundown. You should still be on the phone until sundown, in a conference call with some folks in the Gaza strip.

You can try, but he's responsible for any ultimate failure and damage. Your responsibility is the willingness to trust that there's a purpose to his forcing you to fail and be damaged. In this case the lesson might be to not say "no" without trying your best.

In these two cases, the result of the "Peace in the Middle East" request might actually have a positive result that isn't linked to the actual goal. Knowledge of international politics, development of diplomatic skills. Failure to reach the goal could still result in personal growth.

So might the "eat shit" question if given a fair and honest try. It could result in the acceptance of your real limits without drama, fear or making excuses.

Make logical sense?

 

[BiBunny]

Probably. Also transported, not eating rotting food and moderately irritated by the TV. Rather than going through TV after TV in hopes of finding something for dinner.

If everybody were so pragmatic, the world would be a better place.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Isn't there a point between "easy" and "really boundary-testing repugnant to the soul?"

I kind of like to aim there. I don't care to fight with people's basic natures, rather see what they do well. And do it a lot. Or not a lot and make 'em wait. Or weirdly. Or differently. It remains interesting, but if they really suck at something, I'll just find someone who doesn't, I get my jollies, they get to not have to indulge me on a level they may find totally incomprehensible. Obviously this doesn't work well among a lot of couples, but it's what I like. I enjoy doing things with people who are genuinely game for them, pulling teeth isn't the MO I like most of the time. Maybe once in a while.

Yes, there is, but then there is also a point in why I am boringly always repeating myself about thinking before leaping when the next keen slave/sub comes along and declares they want to be 'no limits' TPE and think it will be cool. Some on both sides of the whip are happy to be TPE and colour only between the lines they know exist, others like F expect to colour outside the lines if they so wish otherwise why enter into a TPE relationship? While VD's PYL may never intend to make her carry through with his suggested possibility, it does sound a lot to me like he wants to believe she would at least give it her best shot, and bring home the fact that she gave up the right to limits. Makes sense to me, just as it makes sense to me that if a person says they are in a D/s or any related type relationship I don't expect to find they are really vanilla but think it sounds cool to say they are D/s.

I also think that people have this unrealistic view of saying that if you are TPE you have to obey anything and everything even if you are ordered to pull stars out of the sky and lock them in the playroom...I also think a lot of this view comes from porn and fantasy as opposed to real life. While obeying 100% of the time is the intention, for those things which really present an impossible challenge on some level the PYL can relate to/appreciate/understand, the important point is in seeing their pyl accept the challenge instead of immediately refusing whenever it goes more than a little outside the expected comfort zone, and at least give it a valid attempt or agree to until excused. It comes back a little to the journey being as important as the destination point, and sometimes more so. We have had moments like this, and we have worked through it...I used to think it was unusual and I had failed majorly until I became involved with people who share the same type of relationship expectations and consequently the same struggles.

Catalina