Polyamory & D/s and Acceptance

[twysted73]

What about group polygamy? Where young girls are peddled off like used cars to old geezers. If no laws are being broken, other than polygamy, shouldn't they be allowed to exist?

Then common sense should apply.

Free will being exercised or stomped on?
Are anyone's personal rights being stripped away, removed alltogether?

Then there should be laws to prevent it, yes. Regardless of common belief in that particular situation.
We are all born not by choice but by chance. Once a human gains enough awareness to make for themselves adult decisions based on experience and what they feel in their heart they should do, then direct parental control should end there.

Just my two.

 

[intothewoods]

What about group polygamy? Where young girls are peddled off like used cars to old geezers. If no laws are being broken, other than polygamy, shouldn't they be allowed to exist?

I'm not against polygamy in theory. I'm just against marrying off underage girls. I'd rather the legal age to marry be something like 17, but there are issues with legislating that as well.

 

[Recidiva]

I believe in polyamory at heart, especially with relationships that wish to remain essentially casual, uncomplicated and convenient. But I also believe in the practical simplicity of monogamy. Especially since I have children, I really like to know that someone is there, someone is responsible, someone will be at the helm.

I begin every relationship as a polyamorist, saying I can and will care for others. I end up monogamous, devoting all my energy to one person. By a series of choices and steps. Usually the male's choices and steps, the male who eventually asks me to forsake others for his peace of mind.

I think polyamory and monogamy are both valid, for different reasons and for different temperaments. I think if all relationships began in terms of polyamory, all the expectations and craziness can be avoided. I think if they develop into monogamy, then cool.

In fact my current husband, I became involved with him BECAUSE he was...married to someone else, involved with so many other women - no risk of monogamy.

Somewhere along the line he dropped his interest in other women, including his wife. He just wanted to spend time with me. He got more and more focused. If he were to lose that focus, that'd be okay too. He says he'd be fine with being with other women, he isn't fine with me being with other men. He says he's a selfish asshole where I'm concerned. I don't really mind. That's part of devoted passion that I find to be paradoxical, but okay. I'm a selfish bitch where my kids are concerned, I want to be "the one" for them. I want to be at the helm, the first person to call, the first, not among equals. I want to be the one who has the right to make legal and medical decisions, to be handed the flag at the funeral. To have no questions.

If we're talking just sex, polyamory is the way to go. If we're talking family, that's different.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not against polygamy in theory. I'm just against marrying off underage girls. I'd rather the legal age to marry be something like 17, but there are issues with legislating that as well.

Hey, if I could have a harem of husbands, I'm fine with it.

I would even stay away from the underage as a sacrifice.

 

[Netzach]

What about group polygamy? Where young girls are peddled off like used cars to old geezers. If no laws are being broken, other than polygamy, shouldn't they be allowed to exist?

If the "young girls" in question are like, 14, then laws are being broken. Pointless argument.

 

[catalina_francisco]

He says he'd be fine with being with other women, he isn't fine with me being with other men.

And this is another contradiction I find with many who profess to be into poly and claim it is about having the ability to love more than one person at the same time. If that is the premise than why is it so often OK for one partner (usually the male from my experience) to have more than one partner/relationship, but not OK for the other (usually the female), and why do so many who operate on this contradiction go further into the absurd (yes, my subjective feelings, I know) then claim that jealousy has no part in poly and it is bad and evil and needs to be dealt with quickly? Seems to me if one does not want the other to be with others they are showing they have jealousy issues of their own which they deny their partner/s the right to. I just can never get past these 2 arguments that so often get glossed over, especially in terms of D/s, and especially M/f D/s.

Catalina

 

[intothewoods]

Hey, if I could have a harem of husbands, I'm fine with it.

I would even stay away from the underage as a sacrifice.

Ha ha ha. That's awesome.

 

[Netzach]

And this is another contradiction I find with many who profess to be into poly and claim it is about having the ability to love more than one person at the same time. If that is the premise than why is it so often OK for one partner (usually the male from my experience) to have more than one partner/relationship, but not OK for the other (usually the female), and why do so many who operate on this contradiction go further into the absurd (yes, my subjective feelings, I know) then claim that jealousy has no part in poly and it is bad and evil and needs to be dealt with quickly? Seems to me if one does not want the other to be with others they are showing they have jealousy issues of their own which they deny their partner/s the right to. I just can never get past these 2 arguments that so often get glossed over, especially in terms of D/s, and especially M/f D/s.

Catalina

Got me, but I'm a voyeur, these things are fun and fun is good. My ex was of the "women are ok men aren't school" and that was totally the nail in the coffin. It says to me that no matter how non-homophobic you profess to be sex between women isn't "real" sex to you and that's a hang up I will not stomach.

I suppose it can be an aspect of control, or driving home that the relationship is not one of equals, but personally, I prefer a sexually fulfilled partner who is poly, and there are other ways I can flex my muscle. If nothing else via the joy of pimping, too.

 

[Recidiva]

And this is another contradiction I find with many who profess to be into poly and claim it is about having the ability to love more than one person at the same time. If that is the premise than why is it so often OK for one partner (usually the male from my experience) to have more than one partner/relationship, but not OK for the other (usually the female), and why do so many who operate on this contradiction go further into the absurd (yes, my subjective feelings, I know) then claim that jealousy has no part in poly and it is bad and evil and needs to be dealt with quickly? Seems to me if one does not want the other to be with others they are showing they have jealousy issues of their own which they deny their partner/s the right to. I just can never get past these 2 arguments that so often get glossed over, especially in terms of D/s, and especially M/f D/s.

Catalina

Yup. That's exactly my experience. I can tell men that I'm polyamorous. The funny thing is that although many guys in my past will say that's cool and awesome and so mature of me and entirely cosmopolitan, somewhere along that line, in a few months, without fail, that guy wants to know his ranking. Wants to know if he's the best of the best. Can't compartmentalize. Can't not know the answer. Starts to obsess.

The old cynical joke about "men will say anything to get into your pants" - ironically a monogamous man will say he's polyamorous to get into your pants too. He may not even know he wants to be monogamous until the choice is taken away from him. Then some awful truths sink in.

I have enough love and respect for guys to think there's something to this trend. I don't think it's on purpose. I think it's basic brain chemistry. I think it applies to women also. A person when presented with polyamory, still wants to be first among unequals somewhere along the line unless they are preternaturally good at compartmentalizing and have had their curiosity surgically removed. When you care for someone you want to know everything. Having huge chunks of your time unaccounted for, the wonder if you're being compared, if someone else does something better, are they funnier, are they more anatomically or technically gifted...drives people crazy.

Maybe these are just the guys I'm attracted to, but this is how it always goes.

I hear the social commentary that women manipulate men into wedding proposals. I always start out polyamorous and I've gotten so many 180 degree sudden marriage proposals it's embarrassing.

So if you want to get married, be polyamorous? That's my honest advice. Be open to polyamory. Be open to monogamy. There's a place and time for each of these things. A relationship can move in and out of these phases organically. My husband and I began polyamorously, we're monogamous now. I've made it clear that if he gets the polyamory bug, I'd be right there with him, willing to do the same. We wouldn't have to be unhappy together, restricted. I'd be open to him changing the arrangement. In the meantime, I'll stay monogamous so he doesn't have to worry about the negative aspects of polyamory.

I'm strictly dealing with polyamory here with the idea that men and women can have as many partners as they feel they want to have. I'm totally fine with a harem, my husband has no doubt that if he went ahead with someone else, I'd go ahead with someone else myself. Fair's fair.

I think many people are not so honestly monogamous and just want the polyamory on their side, that's why there are so many affairs and gender-unequal justifications about the natural order of things. I think that's entirely bull. We're above board and just as a basic understanding of our fairly possessive, passionate nature, we probably shouldn't, because people get shredded in that process. We've both seen that. Best to shut that door than have obsession and jealous ugly spill into our lives and the lives of our kids.

 

[intothewoods]

A friend of mine said to her husband (at the time), let's open our marriage. I know you're not completely sexually satisfied, and neither am I, so let's each be free to have outside partners, but keep it outside of the home. He thanked her for the suggestion, but said he wasn't ready for that. Two months later, she discovered he was cheating. And actually, even now, although they are no longer together romantically, and she is with someone else, he still lies about his romantic life.

 

[Netzach]

A friend of mine said to her husband (at the time), let's open our marriage. I know you're not completely sexually satisfied, and neither am I, so let's each be free to have outside partners, but keep it outside of the home. He thanked her for the suggestion, but said he wasn't ready for that. Two months later, she discovered he was cheating. And actually, even now, although they are no longer together romantically, and she is with someone else, he still lies about his romantic life.

Some people are headcases. Whatever their orientation.

 

[Netzach]

Yup. That's exactly my experience. I can tell men that I'm polyamorous. The funny thing is that although many guys in my past will say that's cool and awesome and so mature of me and entirely cosmopolitan, somewhere along that line, in a few months, without fail, that guy wants to know his ranking. Wants to know if he's the best of the best. Can't compartmentalize. Can't not know the answer. Starts to obsess.

The old cynical joke about "men will say anything to get into your pants" - ironically a monogamous man will say he's polyamorous to get into your pants too. He may not even know he wants to be monogamous until the choice is taken away from him. Then some awful truths sink in.

I have enough love and respect for guys to think there's something to this trend. I don't think it's on purpose. I think it's basic brain chemistry. I think it applies to women also. A person when presented with polyamory, still wants to be first among unequals somewhere along the line unless they are preternaturally good at compartmentalizing and have had their curiosity surgically removed. When you care for someone you want to know everything. Having huge chunks of your time unaccounted for, the wonder if you're being compared, if someone else does something better, are they funnier, are they more anatomically or technically gifted...drives people crazy.

I think that is pretty human and basic. But I know that when that urge becomes detrimental in my relationships I can and do choose to stop it. Just stop it.

I also take that opportunity to ask for reassurance. Not in a yucky way, just in the sense of "I need to know X in order to feel OK with the world."

I have certainty that there are things other people are better at or better for than I am and vice versa. If nothing else when someone keeps coming back, there's obviously a reason.

 

[Recidiva]

A friend of mine said to her husband (at the time), let's open our marriage. I know you're not completely sexually satisfied, and neither am I, so let's each be free to have outside partners, but keep it outside of the home. He thanked her for the suggestion, but said he wasn't ready for that. Two months later, she discovered he was cheating. And actually, even now, although they are no longer together romantically, and she is with someone else, he still lies about his romantic life.

That's something that Lit taught me.

Honesty and straightforward trust isn't a turn on to a lot of people. If it isn't hidden and forbidden, it's no fun, can't get interested.

 

[Homburg]

What about group polygamy? Where young girls are peddled off like used cars to old geezers. If no laws are being broken, other than polygamy, shouldn't they be allowed to exist?

Most states have laws preventing marriage before a certain age, and preventing sex before a certain age. These laws tend to criminalise that whole "young girls are peddled off like used cars to old geezers".

That said, if all other statutes aside from anti-polygamy laws are being followed why should we care if the group exists? Most of the offenses these groups are being accused of are covered under some law or another (especially if domestic violence definitions are loose).

Turn your question around, and use less inflammatory language, then examine it. If a group is breaking no laws other than anti-polygamy statutes, do we have a right to persecute that group?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Got me, but I'm a voyeur, these things are fun and fun is good. My ex was of the "women are ok men aren't school" and that was totally the nail in the coffin. It says to me that no matter how non-homophobic you profess to be sex between women isn't "real" sex to you and that's a hang up I will not stomach.

I suppose it can be an aspect of control, or driving home that the relationship is not one of equals, but personally, I prefer a sexually fulfilled partner who is poly, and there are other ways I can flex my muscle. If nothing else via the joy of pimping, too.

Totally agree with you. As to it being a way to flex control, I can see that until they begin justifying poly as not a choice but just the way they are in being capable of and needing to love more than one person at a time, but that they cannot tolerate their partner enjoying the same privilege. Denying on grounds of power exchange are one thing, not being able to tolerate another doing the same speaks volumes to me about it being OK for one, but not for the other on grounds of jealousy which is not to be tolerated from the denied partner either.

Catalina

 

[intothewoods]

Most states have laws preventing marriage before a certain age, and preventing sex before a certain age. These laws tend to criminalise that whole "young girls are peddled off like used cars to old geezers".

That said, if all other statutes aside from anti-polygamy laws are being followed why should we care if the group exists? Most of the offenses these groups are being accused of are covered under some law or another (especially if domestic violence definitions are loose).

Turn your question around, and use less inflammatory language, then examine it. If a group is breaking no laws other than anti-polygamy statutes, do we have a right to persecute that group?

I don't think the government would care as much if there weren't tax evasion and welfare fraud going on. The underage marriage thing is lower down on their list of concerns, but it plays well in Peoria. There are polygamists who have been living for some time without any interference from the government, and the difference is they aren't violating any other laws.

 

[Homburg]

Got me, but I'm a voyeur, these things are fun and fun is good. My ex was of the "women are ok men aren't school" and that was totally the nail in the coffin. It says to me that no matter how non-homophobic you profess to be sex between women isn't "real" sex to you and that's a hang up I will not stomach.

I suppose it can be an aspect of control, or driving home that the relationship is not one of equals, but personally, I prefer a sexually fulfilled partner who is poly, and there are other ways I can flex my muscle. If nothing else via the joy of pimping, too.

*shrug* When I see viv with a woman, I'm cool. If I see her with a man, and that man is touching her in a sexual/aggressive fashion, I get all gorilla. It's just a gut reaction, and not a fun or pretty one. Do I consider it healthy or well-adjusted? Hell no. I just recognise it as it is.

That said, I've met women for whom that would not work. Certain women would provoke the gorilla response too. This means there may be men that don't provoke it. Dunno.

Part of it is the unequal relationship. Part of it is just self-awareness, and knowing what provokes the "HOMBURG SMASH!" response.

 

[Recidiva]

I think that is pretty human and basic. But I know that when that urge becomes detrimental in my relationships I can and do choose to stop it. Just stop it.

I also take that opportunity to ask for reassurance. Not in a yucky way, just in the sense of "I need to know X in order to feel OK with the world."

I have certainty that there are things other people are better at or better for than I am and vice versa. If nothing else when someone keeps coming back, there's obviously a reason.

You stop the relationship or you stop the urge?

Here's a couple funny and extreme examples. One of the smartest, most charming, wonderful in bed and in conversation guys I've ever met - I met online. He'd come visit every few months. Call him UltimatelyInsecure.

I was involved with someone else online and wasn't willing to give up his company, let's call him Sociopath. Charming, fun, don't trust him two inches out of your sight. Probably not in your sight. Hannibal Lecter with Eddie Izzard's sense of humor. Fun.

Okay, UltimatelyInsecure says he understands my time with Sociopath.

However...UltimatelyInsecure ends up creating a female alt...to go seduce Sociopath.

Wackiness ensues. He ends up having a conversation where he gets entirely shredded. With Sociopath and some "abusive bitch" Sociopath is totally into. He calls me in triumph. Sociopath is totally into this other chick!

"Dude. The abusive bitch was me, just not under my regular username."
"Oh."

And ultimately Sociopath himself ends up driving across several states on the way to my house in the middle of the night claiming he's just left his wife and he's going to kill himself if I don't come meet him at a hotel.

These were seriously cool people. Polyamory kicked their asses and turned them into bibbling idiots.

Or maybe it's just me. Either way, not something I want to try again. Someone's initial cool factor cannot predict how completely insane they will go when they fall in love and they can't have the person they love 100%.

They were both able to confidently disclaim I could ever mean anything to them. And then claim they totally respected my choices. And then ended up not being okay with it at all. AT ALL.

So I'd like to spare potentially cool people that descent into madness and uncool.

I know I can compartmentalize. I can't take another serenade off the balcony in the middle of the night. Or someone's fiancee calling me at three in the morning saying "YOU CAN HAVE HIM! He keeps talking about you in couples therapy!"
"But I don't want him."
"OH!"

Polyamory has broken some very cool people. Makes me sad. It's like bringing a Lion out of the jungle and making him jump through hoops and sit to wait his turn. He's a LION. There is no waiting turns. But...but...look at me! Look at me! I'm jumping! Look!

I prefer the uncivilized jungle where lions can be lions and not be domesticated. It's embarrassing.

 

[Homburg]

I don't think the government would care as much if there weren't tax evasion and welfare fraud going on. The underage marriage thing is lower down on their list of concerns, but it plays well in Peoria. There are polygamists who have been living for some time without any interference from the government, and the difference is they aren't violating any other laws.

I agree. The govt is pretty damned good at ignoring people that keep their heads low, don't break overt laws, and pay their taxes. Stop paying that danegeld and you're fucked though.

 

[Netzach]

You stop the relationship or you stop the urge?

The urge. I say to self "are you getting more good than bad out of this?" and I say to self "think about how many ways he demonstrates your importance" and it's good.

Those are amusing stories. So far, knock wood, I have nothing to compare them to. Things seem to hobble along here in mildly uninteresting functional dysfunction.

The only time I've ever had the "I'm explaining, you seem to be listening and nodding, but your expectations are insane" incident was with a woman, shortly before I met M, and it wasn't as colorful or interesting a time. One I don't want to repeat, but one I've managed not to thus far.

 

[Recidiva]

The urge. I say to self "are you getting more good than bad out of this?" and I say to self "think about how many ways he demonstrates your importance" and it's good.

Those are amusing stories. So far, knock wood, I have nothing to compare them to. Things seem to hobble along here in mildly uninteresting functional dysfunction.

The only time I've ever had the "I'm explaining, you seem to be listening and nodding, but your expectations are insane" incident was with a woman, shortly before I met M, and it wasn't as colorful or interesting a time. One I don't want to repeat, but one I've managed not to thus far.

Again, my experience is only limited to the people I'm attracted to. Who might be inherently unstable. Since I don't know how to be attracted to more stable people, that's my solution. My dogged bids at polyamory did not end well, alas.

I'm kinda jealous that it's possible and I can't cash in. But what I've got's pretty good, so all's well that ends well.

 

[Netzach]

I guess it's possible. I'll find out eventually whether it is or I fucked up.

 

[Recidiva]

*shrug* When I see viv with a woman, I'm cool. If I see her with a man, and that man is touching her in a sexual/aggressive fashion, I get all gorilla. It's just a gut reaction, and not a fun or pretty one. Do I consider it healthy or well-adjusted? Hell no. I just recognise it as it is.

That said, I've met women for whom that would not work. Certain women would provoke the gorilla response too. This means there may be men that don't provoke it. Dunno.

Part of it is the unequal relationship. Part of it is just self-awareness, and knowing what provokes the "HOMBURG SMASH!" response.

I think I like the "HOMBURG SMASH!" part. I don't care if it's healthy or well adjusted. It's certainly widespread. I'm trying to make it work for me.

Woody Allen:

A man says to a psychiatrist "My brother thinks he's a chicken." The psychiatrist responds, "Bring him in and I'm sure I can cure him." To which the man responds, "I would, but we need the eggs."

 

[Netzach]

*shrug* When I see viv with a woman, I'm cool. If I see her with a man, and that man is touching her in a sexual/aggressive fashion, I get all gorilla. It's just a gut reaction, and not a fun or pretty one. Do I consider it healthy or well-adjusted? Hell no. I just recognise it as it is.

That said, I've met women for whom that would not work. Certain women would provoke the gorilla response too. This means there may be men that don't provoke it. Dunno.

Part of it is the unequal relationship. Part of it is just self-awareness, and knowing what provokes the "HOMBURG SMASH!" response.

When I see M playing more counterstrike than I think he should I think all kinds of things and want to scream all kinds of things at him about how he's wasting his life and should be spending time with his hot wife and even call him a loser and get really nasty. I'm like that. Without self control and deep breaths I will abuse people.

Not that not letting your loved one fuck someone is abuse, but these adrenal gut reactions are not laws everyone has to be bound by in life, they're just not. You don't have to be slave to your hot buttons. It's good to know you have them, and if you WANT them to be your end points, that's fine, but other people may not understand why those are end points. Which is where communication comes in I guess.

 

[Homburg]

When I see M playing more counterstrike than I think he should I think all kinds of things and want to scream all kinds of things at him about how he's wasting his life and should be spending time with his hot wife and even call him a loser and get really nasty. I'm like that. Without self control and deep breaths I will abuse people.

Not that not letting your loved one fuck someone is abuse, but these adrenal gut reactions are not laws everyone has to be bound by in life, they're just not. You don't have to be slave to your hot buttons. It's good to know you have them, and if you WANT them to be your end points, that's fine, but other people may not understand why those are end points. Which is where communication comes in I guess.

Well, the first step is awareness, as they say. I'm trying to decide what step two is, and if it is honestly worth taking. As of this point, neither of my girls sees such things as necessary or desirable. If that changes in the future, I'll see about step two. Whatever the fuck that is. For now, I'm aware of it, and it percolates in my subconscious. That is actually a needful thing for me.