Why Domination? Why Corporal Punishment?

[jjsharshaw]

Considering the amount of books available via any number of booksellers on BDSM, D/s, fetishes, etc. and likely the many posts on Lit and other BBS's, this post may deserve a raspberry but...in an age of instant gratification - orgasms or otherwise - I don't want to take the time * to read up on, what to me, amounts to a very visceral thing.

I am in a LDR with a woman, I as the Master and she the slave. We are considering meeting for the first time. She wanted to know IF, when the time came, COULD I REALLY HIT HER WITH MY BELT?

I said, without a lot of hesitation, though I've never done it my life, "Yes."

She said the reason for her question was a number of "non-starters" in the past, i.e., men who talked a good game but couldn't lay a lash to this woman's back when it came time to show their stuff.

And this got me thinking: I consider myself a Dominant. I get off on thinking about laying a lash to this woman's - or most any woman who would consent - back, ass, mons, perineum, vulva and/or breasts and belly.

Why? What is the impulse to giving corporal punishment?

And, once, early on in my marriage, I practiced - somewhat by accident - one of the most dangerous forms of edge play I think I know about and would do - in holding my wife by her throat during intercourse and increasing the pressure as she got closer to coming.

For those of you who have not tried this: a) I was not cutting off her air directly, I was cutting off her blood supply to her brain by compressing her carotid arteries at the carotid sinuses. b) what makes this so dangerous is that blood pressure is controlled largely by the carotid sinuses, spongy structures in the neck that surround the carotid arteries AND also electrical impulses to the heart travel this route.

With her blood pressure already lowered, her brain is oxygen starved, IF, at the exactly right moment in the electrical firing cycle of the heart, the firing cycle is interrupted - by pressure on the sinuses that you are supplying - then the heart stops. The paramedics could be right by the bed with the paddles (CLEAR! Ka-THUNK!) and all they get to be is voyeurs because your lover is DEAD. Nothing short of cracking her chest and doing direct cardiac massage is going to restart the ticker and then, I'm told by my cardiologist (who simply may be wanting to scare hell out of me), direct cardiac massage being successful is "iffy."

Yet, the first time I did this, ignorantly, and every time since, it is a tremendous feeling for us both, not only in the genitalia but in the head.

From the start of that simple little bit of dominance: pressing my wife to the mattress by her throat while fucking her, I've been on a rather escalating "curve" for the last 30 years.

Why? What is the impulse to Dominate?

Please forgive the wordiness. And thank you in advance for all your useful responses.

Jubal

* Plus I got a story kicking around in my head and I'm in a hurry. God, because they've been jump starting my brain via ECT for - well, I can't, uh, clearly remember - and taking a ton of psychotropics over several years to get me out of my funk, I haven't written for a couple of years. Is it any wonder some of my characters are messed up?

BTW, my story on Lit, "The Little Death" describes the carotid compression technique in story form.

 

[rosco rathbone]

I dunno. I love the belt.

I think it brings two people close together when they know that the man will not hesitate to take off his belt and chastize the woman if need be.

I like that feeling...."you are mine to kiss, mine to beat, as I will."

 

[Netzach]

I think you're going to be disappointed in that most of the people who like to belt people around here have usually done everything in their power to be vanilla/normal/not do it and have come to the conclusion after a lot of fight that this is just how it is, there's no way to do it otherwise, when it comes to our sexuality.

So I'm kind of over wondering why making red welts on someone's ass does it for me. For some people it's balloons popping.

If you want to do carotid artery stuff and not kill your partner, learn Judo. I know that takes quite a bit of commitment, but these people are perpetually choking one another out and there's only been ONE reported fatality in the sport and there were other factors.

A lot of people would rather scare than educate others.

 

[ownedsubgal]

just call me old school. i'm one of those types that if my Man would never strike me for stepping out of line or just generally getting on his nerves, i would assume he didn't care enough. respect for him would be impossible and the relationship wouldn't last long.

so...yeah. i need to know that he loves me enough to knock the tar outta me when necessary.

 

[graceanne]

I prefer the belt over the hand. *shrugs*

 

[BiBunny]

I know that domination and sadism supposedly occur together most of the time, but often that is not the case. In my (admittedly not very broad) experience, the people most hung up on domination aren't very sadistic. Most of the really hardcore sadists don't really give a flip about all the ritualistic domination stuff, either. In other words, most people lean to one side or the other. I know I prefer being sadistic to being dominant in most cases.

As far as the punishment thing goes, not everybody uses punishment in their relationships. I prefer submissives to do what I want them to do because they want to or because they want to please me. Otherwise, they know where the door is. *Shrug*

I think, though, that the biggest thing is that most people aren't nearly as bad-ass as they want people to believe they are. Back when I used to bottom more extensively, the men who described themselves as hardcore sadists almost undoubtedly weren't. The one man who described himself as a "sensual sadist" was the meanest bastard I ever met in the bedroom, and I loved him for it. (I did, however, tell him that his description of himself was WRONG, LOL.) I don't know. I never really could respect a man whose capacity for causing pain was less than my own. A switch thing, I guess. My experience with sadism is sort of like the old adage about the size of a man's cock. The more he brags, the less he's got.

 

[EmpressFi]

we dont use corporal punishment. he doesnt need to strike me to punish me. To let me know I've disappointed him is enough.. I punish myself more than he could...

but.. we do use leather and other beating things on me as part of our playtime..

 

[YourCaptor]

I am in a LDR with a woman, I as the Master and she the slave. We are considering meeting for the first time. She wanted to know IF, when the time came, COULD I REALLY HIT HER WITH MY BELT?

I said, without a lot of hesitation, though I've never done it my life, "Yes."

She said the reason for her question was a number of "non-starters" in the past, i.e., men who talked a good game but couldn't lay a lash to this woman's back when it came time to show their stuff.

And this got me thinking: I consider myself a Dominant. I get off on thinking about laying a lash to this woman's - or most any woman who would consent - back, ass, mons, perineum, vulva and/or breasts and belly.

Why?

I went the opposite way, I hit her and later wondered if it was right.

Why do I do it? Why do I do anything? Its just what I do, some kind of desire that originates someplace in this skull.

For those of you who have not tried this: a) I was not cutting off her air directly, I was cutting off her blood supply to her brain by compressing her carotid arteries at the carotid sinuses. b) what makes this so dangerous is that blood pressure is controlled largely by the carotid sinuses, spongy structures in the neck that surround the carotid arteries AND also electrical impulses to the heart travel this route.

With her blood pressure already lowered, her brain is oxygen starved, IF, at the exactly right moment in the electrical firing cycle of the heart, the firing cycle is interrupted - by pressure on the sinuses that you are supplying - then the heart stops. The paramedics could be right by the bed with the paddles (CLEAR! Ka-THUNK!) and all they get to be is voyeurs because your lover is DEAD. Nothing short of cracking her chest and doing direct cardiac massage is going to restart the ticker and then, I'm told by my cardiologist (who simply may be wanting to scare hell out of me), direct cardiac massage being successful is "iffy."

point (a) would be the more dangerous here. Cutting off the carotid arteries is a common choke technique. The rule goes 15 they are out for a good amount of time, 30 seconds they have brain damage, 45 they go into seizures, 60 they are dead. If you kill someone like this it is legally murder, their is no way someone can accidentally keep choking another when they are having seizures. It is an extremely violent way to kill someone

point (b) sounds iffy to me. 1 the heart does not need to brain to stay in homeostasis, you could cut her heart out and it would still beat. 2 In all my year of martial arts the only way I have ever heard of stoping someones heart is by inducing a heart attack, and that takes a hell off a lot more then a choke.

 

[jjsharshaw]

I know that domination and sadism supposedly occur together most of the time, but often that is not the case. In my (admittedly not very broad) experience, the people most hung up on domination aren't very sadistic. Most of the really hardcore sadists don't really give a flip about all the ritualistic domination stuff, either. In other words, most people lean to one side or the other. I know I prefer being sadistic to being dominant in most cases.

As far as the punishment thing goes, not everybody uses punishment in their relationships. I prefer submissives to do what I want them to do because they want to or because they want to please me. Otherwise, they know where the door is.

Thanks BiBunny, you've reflected a lot of my own feelings. And I think you've helped me to see that I lean more to the sadistic side than the dominant side - at times I get annoyed considering writing "ritualistic" domination language when I am thinking that control through pain is really being dominant. If that makes any sense. (Though I love it when my slave uses the ritual D/s language!)

I think that dichotomy has been right in front of my eyes but one of those "forrest for the tree" things.

As to my slave's motivation, I definitely want my slave to do what I want her to do either because she wants to and/or to please me. Any dishonesty of emotion, any thing that I would have to "force," knowing they were not deriving some pleasure from it, turns me off rather quickly. I ask her how she feels about doing X or Y before the fact and I generally will not arbitrairily "command" something - which I think at times may disappoint her a bit in that part of her that wants to be controlled.

The thing is - and I must apologize to all of you who have contributed here - the issues I am grappling with are not the type of punishment given or if any punishment is given at all but rather, why do I have these deep desires to be dominant and to be able commit what is essentially sexual violence against a woman.

I'm 49 years old. I suppose I have just now started to wonder about the "why" and Netzach you may just have your thumb on the answer - though in a way I hope not - if you're over wondering, then perhaps there is no answer.

Just the primal drive? Just the yin to a sub's deep yang of submission? Is it just that simple?

Thanks, all
Jubal

 

[jjsharshaw]

I went the opposite way, I hit her and later wondered if it was right.

Why do I do it? Why do I do anything? Its just what I do, some kind of desire that originates someplace in this skull.

I was afraid this was going to be the answer. LOL!

As to your other points, I have been a small town politician, a cop, a municipal insurance risk officer, a radio DJ, a preacher, a cardiac monitor technician (telemetry tech) on a large telemetry unit and a cardio vascular ICU, personally well acquainted with several cardiologists (including the ones who worked on me prior to my 4 bypasses) and anesthesiologists - whose brains I've picked and have found some have been quite kinky. I've also had, between 1999 and 2006, approximately 130 ElectroConvulsiveTherapy treatments (ECT) and, from what I can remember, I have gotten to be pretty acquainted with the effects of electricity on the body and its major organs.

Also, once my wife and I started doing what we were/are doing, I started reading up on it in BDSM Edge Play sites. So, there are my "bona fides."

point (a) would be the more dangerous here. Cutting off the carotid arteries is a common choke technique. The rule goes 15 they are out for a good amount of time, 30 seconds they have brain damage, 45 they go into seizures, 60 they are dead. If you kill someone like this it is legally murder, their is no way someone can accidentally keep choking another when they are having seizures. It is an extremely violent way to kill someone

Yes, in most cases, if a pattern of practice (rough sex, with or without bondage, and the "choke hold") and consensuality cannot be established by the living party, at minimum you're looking at reckless manslaughter. You're really screwed, legally, if your partner happens to be some politico's daughter (or son, I suppose) and you are not necessairly in "good standing" within the community.

Ah...As the warden says to Paul Newman in "Cool Hand Luke," "What we have here is a failure to communicate." I see that I have mis-spoken. My "choke hold" is really more along the lines of "carotid sinus massage" that can and has lasted as long as it has taken my wife to START to lose consciousness and then come. (3-8 minutes +/-) It has nothing to do with martial arts and police choke holds except in the manner in which death is usually brought on.

She has never seizured, never died within 60 seconds (to my knowledge, at least - I'm just saying. I've been a bit, um, involved...somewhat violently), she has a better mind and memory than me, after 28 years of marriage so I'd say I can rule out brain damaging her so...there are only two things I worry about in doing this thing: 1) "PVC-on-T" and 2) Vaso-vagal outlet asystole. Both cardiac effects are rather hard, if not impossible to recover from.

point (b) sounds iffy to me. 1 the heart does not need to brain to stay in homeostasis, you could cut her heart out and it would still beat. 2 In all my year of martial arts the only way I have ever heard of stoping someones heart is by inducing a heart attack, and that takes a hell off a lot more then a choke.

To quote Ed McMahon in an old Johnny Carson bit, "You are CORRECT, SIR!" The heart does not necessarily require input from the brain to beat - though it has been acknowledged to help. As members of Cortes' party and Conquistadors were getting their chests ventilated in a pagan sacrifice by the Aztecs, the Aztecs alledgedly had to pull the heart of the sacrifice out - beating - or their gods would be pissed.

As to "heart attacks" - it is kinda a misused term. A heart attack can be when the heart essentially looses control of its rhythm and eventually, after it goes a little nuts (this is the part on TV where you hear, "He's in V-Tach! Get the paddles! Charge to 360! CLEAR!) if it has not been successfully brought back to a stable electrical rhythm then the heart quits beating (asystole/"flat line"). This is what you get in both PVC-on-T and Vaso-vagal outlet asystole.

Secondly, the term heart attack is used to describe an event where the heart muscle has sustained damage and may or may not be able to pump effectively. The damage to the heart muscle, outside of congenital problems or recreational drug use, is usually damaged like any other muscle - by lack of oxygen.

In Vaso-vagal outlet asystole, you got this nerve, the Vagus, that essentially runs from your anus to your brain, via the tracheo-esophogeal tree and the back of the mouth. It is rather difficult to disturb this nerve enough to get it to pitch a fit and cause asystole but Elvis, people masturbating alone with something around their neck, and cops wrestling suspects to the ground in a Judo choke hold have all done it, with rather, um, unpleasant effect.

In PVC-on-T, the heart normally beats from the top, down. First the atrial chambers take in oxygen depleted blood collected from the veins and when the chambers are full, an electrical impulse "fires" causing the atrial chambers to contract, "spitting" their blood to the Ventricles at the bottom, which oxygenate the blood and then shoot it out to your body via your arterial system.

Massaging the carotid sinuses in the neck results in a slowing or quickening of the heart beat and a raising or lowering of the blood pressure, depending on where one massages. Anyhoo...IF the heart senses it is getting low on the old oxygen it tries to take action to save itself, generally by prematurely firing the ventricles (a PVC).

A perfect storm ensues IF, AT THE EXACT MOMENT IN THE HEART's ELECTRICAL FIRING CYCLE, a PVC occurs when the atrium is "repolarizing" (recharging after contracting, getting ready to beat again). Then, it's all she wrote folks. Why? Well, for one, the heart's electrical system has just fucked itself (due to whomever is massaging the sinuses) and two, there's an ass load of blood caught between the atrium (which just spit it out to the ventricles) and the ventricles (which has just attempted to send an empty chamber of blood out to the body and didn't take in the blood actually ready for it) and, with a non-beating heart, it has no where to go. (A pump cannot pump if it's empty)

PVC-on-T (and maybe to a lesser extent the vaso vagal) is why choke holds are such a potentially dangerous liability to city, county, state & federal law enforcement officers. Essentially, in a scuffle wherein a suspect who has probably already been exerting themselves trying to evade law enforcement, is caught, wrestled to the ground and placed in a so-called choke hold, if they are not IMMEDIATELY incapacitated and continue to struggle then the officer applying the hold may actually be moving the suspect's neck back and forth in his/her arm and "massaging" them. In the mayhem of such a scenario and considering the likelihood of the suspect having illegal drugs in their systems and having pre-existing medical conditions, it is extremely easy for a suspect to die. And then the lawyers come.

In short, I apply gentle pressure at the base of her neck. Thumb on one carotid and index finger and middle finger on the other. As the thrusting (hers and mine) picks up, her endorphin pump starts going, I increase the pressure, slowly and gently. By virtue of our bodies thrusting together I cannot keep a solid grip on one place of her neck, hence, massage.

I watch her eyes. I watch her face. I back off pressure if she signals a need for it or simply just to prolong things. As she approaches orgasm, I apply more pressure - gently. I do not believe at any point, I have totally shut down her arteries. When she comes, the characteristic muscle spasms I feel in her sex aren't there and she goes limp but never, ever, quite unconscious. As soon as she appears to orgasm I immediately let loose. Afterward, she describes her orgasm as being the hardest, deepest, greatest one she's had and I have to assume, due to lack of oxygen in her brain, and the flooding of her system with endorphins due to the rough sex that she may be in a physically induced "sub space." But that's another story.

Anyway...you can google PVC-on-T and breath play. And talk about trust between partners! The top or Dom/me literally has the life of the bottom or sub in their hands and it could go horribly wrong if...

Thanks, Captor. Been a while since I had to review my cardiovascular physiology. You made me work. Hope someone is still awake out there...When it gets right down to it, I'm just an old, snarky, verbose, boring-as-hell, bastard.

Jubal

 

[YourCaptor]

Ok I'm confused.

You're saying both ventricles fire early, sending blood to the lungs and body. Then the atriums fire and have problems pushing blood into the empty ventricles?

It also seems unlikely that something as simple as the AV node going out of control would cause the whole system to crash. The body is way more resilient then that, millions of people all over the world have some kind of irregular heart beat and they often don't even notice it, thinking everything is normal.

 

[jjsharshaw]

Ok I'm confused.

You're saying both ventricles fire early, sending blood to the lungs and body. Then the atriums fire and have problems pushing blood into the empty ventricles?

I guess I assumed too much in my last screed. The ventricles don't simply fire prematurely ONCE (except in the case of PVC-on-T, where the process is brought to a screeching halt because the ventricles fired at the EXACT moment - something pretty damn hard to do - that the Sinus or AV Node is recharging to beat again. Please feel free to read up on it.) Depending upon the condition of the person experiencing the problem & the heart's perception of hypoxia, maybe you get couplets, tripletts or quads. That's why I ALWAYS ease up at various times in the hold. I got no fucking idea how her heart is responding to the violence we are both creating and how I am treating her.

Most people will have PVC's, some on a fairly regular basis. When someone says, "Oh! My heart just skipped a beat!" it's likely they felt a PVC. I remember once a man being admitted to the telemetry floor I was working and we (the doctors, nurses, & myself) were all rather astounded when we got him wired: he was complaining of feeling "a little tired." And no wonder! Every two normal beats were followed by either a single PVC or a "couplet." At any time, his pattern of having PVC's could have changed into "V-Tach," ventricular tachycardia.

And so, within these wildly off topic posts. the problem is that the person on the bottom (being "choked") may be having PVC's and still be okay but at ANY moment, without any prior, detectable warning they could go into V-Tach or they and their partner could experience the dreaded PVC-on-T. They may go into V-Tach because of hypoxia - but if you're doing it "right" that's unlikely because I have never seen my wife experience any of the symptoms that you stated in your "rule of thumb" regarding choke holds. They may have V-Tach because somehow the person on the bottom has had the vagus nerve really irritated. (When I started working cardiology in 1981, cardiac patients in ICU were not allowed anything cold or hot to eat or drink lest the vagus get stimulated and cardiac arrest ensue. Fortunately, that practice has changed.)

So what is worrying is MAYBE going into V-Tach because of "vaso-vagus" or a complete stop because of "PVC-on-T" (please google it or check out some edge play sites. Guy name of Jay Wiseman pops up quite a bit as being the "authority" on this in BDSM. At least one German web site has called into question Mr. Wiseman's credibility about a number of things. On the matter of PVC-on-T he is correct.)

However, the reason that my wife and I have continued to do what we do, aside from the fact that we both wildly get off doing it - she gets a trip to "sub space" and I get a very primal rush from watching her face and body as I fuck the absolute bejesus out of her- is that PVC-on-T is mind boggling rare and so WE PERSONALLY ASSESS the danger being very low but it's an individual/couple's decision as to whether to take the chance or not and it is an EXTREMELY SERIOUS DECISION TO MAKE - and NOT LIGHTLY, either.

Yes, the blood is congested in between the Sinus node and the ventriclar nodes immediately in the case of PVC-on-T and sometimes in V-Tach, which if not cardio-verted pretty fucking quick, you'll have asystole.

I have seen patients fresh out of open heart surgery who, due to irritation of the heart, have had 5-10 second "runs" of V-Tach and lived because immediately IV Lidocaine was given "anesthetize" the heart somewhat and consequently to suppress the PVC's. But that's a special circumstance.

It also seems unlikely that something as simple as the AV node going out of control would cause the whole system to crash. The body is way more resilient then that, millions of people all over the world have some kind of irregular heart beat and they often don't even notice it, thinking everything is normal.

Don't know what to tell you, Captor. The body IS resilient, hence the reason more gay guys and curious hetero guys (FBI Special Agent Fox Mulder will alledgedly meet the Maker because of "an accident" - trivia for the X-Filers out there) are alive after repeatedly jerking off with a towel or rope around their neck and nobody around to help them when they start to lose consciousness. I mean, SHIT! There is a reason that autoerotic asphyxiation is classified as Edge Play.

A-Fib & flutter (Atrial Fibulation or Atrial Flutter) is common in older people and until they get a check up with an EKG or complain just right to their docs and get an EKG, they're walking around with a fairly serious problem where there's hardly any Ventricular activity on monitor.

My wife currently is anemic, a fairly common condition in young women with heavy periods and iron deficient diets and older women (my wife @ 47) who has heavy periods due to their BCP given to them to even out their periods, for among other things, interuterine fibroids, and she is also iron deficient in her diet. According to her 24 hour Holter monitor, she was having PVC's on average of 10 times an hour. Occasionally she was experiencing couplets & trips. So until her blood count (specifically her H&H) gets up to where the PVC's shut off, ain't no way in Hell that I am putting my fingers around her throat. I may be horny but not stupid.

I do apologize to all that I have rambled off into the off topic field. I think I have the answer to the issues I was originally asking about.

Captor, if you want to continue inquiries into heart physiology, perhaps you might want to start a seperate thread for lifestylers who are into breath control - though, I think statistically you'll find most breath players (who are deeply committed to Safe, Sane & Consensual) will tell you to do what I do is neither Safe nor Sane and they don't have anything to do with it.

Personally, both I and my wife find the sensation of not being able to breathe frightening and uncomfortable. Putting a bag over someone's head or a leather hood or an old gas mask is neither visually appealing to me (except in the context of semi-spontaneous, semi-nonconsensual, extremely rough sex) nor something I think my partner would find erotic in terms of sensation. But hey, that's me.

Oh, and Captor, it will not be the first time, nor thanks to age and ECT's and the accompanying narcotics and psychotropics I must take (currently I'm up to 17 medications a day to cover my heart, diabetes, blood pressure, chronic pain, gout and treatment resistant major depression) the last time that I have been accused of incorrectly attempting to explain something. My apologies to you and any others (who had the time and desire to read this crap I am putting out) if this has been the case.

However, I am very comfortable with my understanding of the processes in which I practice and write about. In addition to the 17 drugs a day, I usually see a minimum of three doctors a month: shrink, internist, anesthesiologist (certified in pain management) - and oh, make it 4 docs - the interventional cardiologist who saved my ass back in 2001 when he found my Right Coronary Artery to be greater than 80 percent blocked. That discovery prompted somewhat rushed open heart surgery to replace segments of 4 arteries. I am told there are at least 5 more minor feeder arteries that are blocked and which they cannot repair, hence why I am maxed out on a drug called Tenormin, a beta blocker to slow my heart to help it beat slow enough to use what oxygen is available to it, and Vicodin (like Dr. House on TV), for when the Tenormin doesn't quite do the job of easing my near continuous chest pain. (The point about seeing the docs regularly is that at least two of four are rather kinky and into some wild shit and I pick their brains, although I refuse to talk with the shrink about BDSM and D/s speciifically for fear of where that discussion could go at $185/hour.)

And for those of you who wonder how I fuck if I am so broken down: very, very carefully.

Jubal