Do They Have a Right-not bdsm related

[the_pet]

I recently posted about a friend that had recently committed suicide. She had an online journal that was partly public and partly private. She only allowed those she chose to have access to her private journal~which did not include her family members~she had issues with them over her childhood sexual abuse. Her family is trying to gain access to the private journal. They say it's an attempt to understand what happened that led up to her suicide. Did something terrible happen minutes, days before? Was it depression? Was there someone she held responsible for her pain? Those kind of questions....

If she didn't want to share with them her private feelings when she was alive is it right for them to have access to it now. They knew she had a private journal prior to her death, it's not a surprise, but they want to see it now. I feel bad for them because they just are grabbing at whatever they can to try and comprehend what happened. But i don't think it's right to violate her privacy even in death. But since she's dead does it really even matter? I won't give them the password because it feels like a betrayal but some think maybe they should see what she was really feeling and how she felt about things, the family thinks it's not fair that they are being withheld the texts.....i think it's a little too late for that now.

I'm not asking anybody for advice, just how you feel about the subject.

pet

 

[FurryFury]

I take a very negative view of suicide because I've felt that way and I've had loved ones attempt suicide too many times to keep count.

I think when you are dead your privacy and pretty much everything else, not legally protected can be, violated" by your blood relatives with impunity.

While alive you had the choice to legally protect yourself and anything you really cared about. You also had the choice to stay alive and fight.

Generally, I think survivors have a right to do whatever they need to in order to understand what happened and deal with the loss.

OTOH, if I, as her friend, did have a password but did not want to give it up to relatives, people that I blamed (in part) for her death, I would not give it up. In fact, I'd take steps to delete as much of that information as the internet and computers allow.

 

[wicked woman]

While I empathize with her family...there are often so many questions when someone commits suicide...personally I agree with you that her wishes should be respected.

A post morem of her thoughts won't bring her back. It might not even bring them the peace they're looking for. She could have been protecting them for a reason.

 

[madetotakeit]

If she let them know (in whatever way) that she was keeping the online journal I would wonder if maybe part of her wanted them to read it. It would have been so simple to keep its existence from them. Maybe these are things that she needed to say to them but couldn't handle doing so. Deleting it does keep her privacy, but it also takes away the power of her words. This is one of the hardest things about dealing with suicides. After the fact everyone who cared is dealt with trying to interpret intentions and wishes. I think they have a right to know, not necessarily because they were responsible for her being but also because they had a part in her leaving. It is harder to deny when the proof is before your eyes.

 

[Homburg]

Dead or not, respect for privacy is respect for privacy. You're doing the right thing.

 

[intothewoods]

Unless there were some possibility of foul play, I would not try to get the password. I would respect her privacy. However, I think it's worth pointing out that there's really not much of an expectation of privacy in the words we allow some to see. Send an email, even a private one, and you run the risk that everyone will see it. It's happened in the past, and it will happen again.

If you have a picture on this website, and/or you use your real name, your boss might see it. Your coworkers might see it. Your children might find the site, eventually. If you're okay with all of that, go on with your bad self. I'm not saying we should all hide and be ashamed of ourselves. Far from it. Just saying that if you haven't given it any thought, you might want to.

 

[YourCaptor]

I recently posted about a friend that had recently committed suicide. She had an online journal that was partly public and partly private. She only allowed those she chose to have access to her private journal~which did not include her family members~she had issues with them over her childhood sexual abuse. Her family is trying to gain access to the private journal. They say it's an attempt to understand what happened that led up to her suicide. Did something terrible happen minutes, days before? Was it depression? Was there someone she held responsible for her pain? Those kind of questions....

If she didn't want to share with them her private feelings when she was alive is it right for them to have access to it now. They knew she had a private journal prior to her death, it's not a surprise, but they want to see it now. I feel bad for them because they just are grabbing at whatever they can to try and comprehend what happened. But i don't think it's right to violate her privacy even in death. But since she's dead does it really even matter? I won't give them the password because it feels like a betrayal but some think maybe they should see what she was really feeling and how she felt about things, the family thinks it's not fair that they are being withheld the texts.....i think it's a little too late for that now.

I'm not asking anybody for advice, just how you feel about the subject.

pet

Too late too little, should have asked those questions earlier.

And family isn’t a magic, fairytale bond that last forever, it takes effort too.

They should be glad if they are welcomed at her funeral.

 

[Fuckette]

You are a true friend.

 

[Daddy2mylilgirl]

I think the family just wants closure.

And it's not like they can't just go through all her personal belongings anyway. So privacy is not really an issue.

I think because it was suicide, that they should be able to read it. She chose to do this to herself and her family. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

It might help the family and they may learn from it. Who knows, it might help someone else down the road.

 

[DVS]

Sorry, some advice is coming.

Once someone is dead, they really don't have rights. The only rights the dead have are common courtesies. Don't walk on the grave, don't desecrate the grave, respect the dead, etc. etc.

When someone commits suicide, they know when they're going to die. So, they can plan, if they choose to. Most people don't have that luxury, and so if they plan, it's usually long before they die, or they constantly update their plans every few years.

If someone commits suicide, they should have no problem getting their affairs in order, so to speak, such as what they want someone to have of theirs, or what they don't want someone to have of theirs. A will is the only true way for the dead to speak after they're gone. A legal binding contract with a notarized signature states what they wanted to say. They can even say why, if they want to.

Also, it has been done in the past...giving some law firm a folder of information, or several folders of information to hold, to be distributed on the event of your death. These folders can contain anything. They can be legal documents, letters, pictures, or any combination of many things that can tell a story, explain a reason, and even point fingers and accusations.

For the living, there are still rules and rights. If I had information that I knew my friend didn't want shared, for whatever reason and my friend died, I'd feel it was necessary to carry on this desire, in respect of my friend. Unless my friend told me it was OK to share this information.

Keeping it private and secret is carrying out a wish of your friend. If there is a will, only legal action can force someone to allow access, after the owner has died. The Will is a document that explains the wishes of the dead.

Now, it's possible for the family to go to court and get access to family member's secret information, after they are dead. And if there is no will against it, it's only a matter of time before they do.

The courts don't view a dead person as having rights, because their life has ended. Courts deal with living people and their interest. A dead person can't come to court and fight for their side, so the courts aren't able to do anything in the best interest of the dead.

What happens might seem wrong, when you are a friend and know the wishes the dead person had. But, you are just a friend. I wouldn't try to keep a family from information, without knowing the legal issues. They very well might just be seeking closure. It's a normal thing to do, when someone commits suicide. The question of why is always there.

If it were me, I'd be bothered by this, as much as you are. But, I think I'd try to follow the laws, as much as I could, while also following the wishes of my friend. Unless she gave you specific wishes in writing, you will eventually have no choice. With nothing legal to specify her wishes, the family will win out, regardless of the desires of you or your friend's wishes.

And, if you are the only person who knows her password, I don't know if I'd be deleting anything. It's not your property. The family could bring you up on charges or sue you, if they found out.

I would seek legal advice, if I were to continue this. Knowing what's legal and what isn't could be a great help to you, both legally, and also emotionally. To know you can't legally do something, even though your friend might have wished for it, should console you, some.

A friend would never want a friend to go beyond their means to keep a promise...if there was a promise. And if you were just doing this because you knew her and cared for her, I'd still seek out a lawyer for advice. He might know something that can help you. And, he might be able to make the family back down, if they find legal resistance.

But, just so you know...it's honorable what you're doing, but you can't handle this alone. You won't be able to live with yourself, if you don't succeed and that's not what your friend would want.

Talk to somebody...find out information. Get some legal advice. Know what to expect before someone comes to take what you don't want them to have.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

I'm afraid I'm going to offer a few words of advice too.

I don't know how recent this death is or how long you've been denying access to this journal for.

I can tell you that suicide leaves those left behind crazed with guilt. You should expect her grieving family to be irrational and to fight for what they consider to be a significant part of their loved one's memory. The total devastation that a suicide causes makes people clutch for straws with a desperate determination that you are unlikely to be able to match.

Commonly, those who choose to die gain comfort from planning their exit and to their loved ones, they can appear to be improving psychologically. They do this because they have decided on the closure they seek; it gives them a measure of satisfaction and contentment to know that their troubles will be over soon. If they are serious about ending their lives, they want to avoid close observation from worried friends and relatives.

All this can leave people with a misguided impression of a person's wellbeing that is totally shattered by their suicide.

Of course they will feel that they should have picked up on something or spent more time with your friend before her death. What you should remember before you blame them for failing her, is that she will have been actively avoiding interference from them. 20/20 is hindsight. You cannot judge how they should or could have treated her unless there has been gross neglect or abuse.

I can totally understand their desire to go through her journal and attempt to assimilate how she was feeling in those last weeks and days. They will be desperate to understand what her last triggers were that spiralled her down the path to a determined and successful suicide. If they were any kind of family they will feel wretchedly responsible in a way that you cannot attempt to comprehend unless you have known her from birth. Please consider this before you judge them as unworthy to know what your friend's thoughts and feelings were before she died.

DVS is right that legal action can be taken to access the journal and that in all likelihood it will be a brief and successful process for them. If you truly believe that there are things in that journal that the family should not know or that it would irreparably damage their memory of her to find out, then by all means stick to your guns but be prepared to see that conviction through.

If there is nothing to the great detriment of her character and it would help the family to deal with their grief to read it, it might be prudent to capitulate now, rather than give them the misguided impression that your friend's journal must contain something truly shocking. The bigger a deal you make of this, the more value they will place on accessing the journal. Hopefully, their motivations will be unconditional love and the gradual assimilation of a terrible loss.

 

[rida]

If I was you ... I'll be doing the same, that is not disclosing the password.

If I was the family, I'd want to know, to try to understand the why, even if the truth is going to be painful I'd just want to know. For closure. It might be selfish, it might be too little too late, but I'd want to know.

If I was the dead one ... I guess I should have thought about it before hand. If I didn't want them to know, I should have deleted all. But than again I could have just sized the courage before losing it and as such not had time to bother with details. Either way ... if left behind I'd feel is just fair game.

DVS had some very good advise: check out the legal ramifications.

And sorry for your loss

 

[cherokee_dove]

i am sorry for the loss of your friend, first off.

Secondly, and this may sound a little harsh; but it is not meant to be.

Your friend is gone now. Their emotions and feelings about life don't mean a thing to them anymore. If they had have meant something, that person would still be alive; dealing with the problems with counciling, moving away from the problems (if it was a family member) or just having the family sit down and tell them out right what the problems were.

The family needs to come to terms with not only their grief of that persons death, but also come to terms with the reasons behind the death. And if the journal names people, those people can be made to realize they are the reason behind the death. And hopefully, brought to trial because of it.

If the journal stated the names of who did the abuse, they should not think that just because your friend is dead; that they got away with it. Abuse is not something anyone should ever get away with.

If that is the information involved, then the other family members can hold that person or persons responsible. Not just for the abuse, but for the suicide.

i know its a hard decision for a friend to have to make, and i commend you for worrying about your friends feelings even after all is said and done.

If nothing else, take the time to make a full duplicate page by page copy of the journal. Keep it safe in your records. That way, if the family decides to just delete it; there is still evidence of what happened. And that way, your friends emotions and feelings and problems cannot be hidden away. They will have to be dealt with.

But the family, those not involved with the abuse; does need closure. To be able to understand what the problems were, and why your friend did commit suicide.

And if he or she left in hidden messages to them in just how things were worded, the family needs that for their peace of mind and to finally be able to say farewell to a family member.

It is a hard decision to make, but i hope this helps.

~~~HUGS~~~

 

[DeservingBitch]

I wouldn't want to be in your position, and I don't know what I would do if I were.

But from the outside of it, I think that they deserve to know and read what she wrote. They deserve to read her telling her pain. They caused it. They should be witness to it.

It's easier to deny or ignore the abuse, both when she was alive or now dead, when it's not being said. It's easier to believe she was depressed rather than suffering from their abuse. Reading her words may force them to look at themselves.

ETA: and yes, as Cherokee said, those who were not involved and not aware need to be able to hold the abuser(s) accountable. They can only do so if they can read her words.

 

[SirQittus]

Some really thoughtful comments here.

I'd only add that, while I wholeheartedly agree with DVS et al that knowing the legal ramifications is critical and would be my first step as well, it is best to keep in mind that the legal thing to do is not always the right thing to do.

 

[intothewoods]

Well, you've read the journal, right? Is there anything in there that gives them new information about the abuse, information they don't already know? If so, do you think or are they indicating they want to do something productive with that information? If there is information in the journal and you think it might be productive for them to read it, then maybe consider giving it to them. Otherwise, I'm not sure I see the point.

As a separate matter, if these guys get serious, they can probably threaten the journal website with legal action and get them to turn over the password. I mean, it's just not that hard to get those types of sites to roll over.

 

[minx1]

So sorry about the death of your friend.

Its such a tough call...I don't envy you at all.

If I put myself in that position I would be completely torn. On one hand I would see that my friend had a right to privacy and respect the fact she wanted to keep that journal from her family.
On the otherhand her family is trying to deal with death.

The lines are so blurred and its difficult to say not knowing the history in terms of the depth of issue she had with them over her sexual abuse...whether it was blaming them for not protecting her, or the way the dealt with it in general etc.

You know I could imagine if it went to a court of human rights for example they would uphold the wishes of the deceased, and I would generally support this I think.
But not in this case. The journal may not provide any comfort at all for the family, who knows, depending on their involvement or reaction to the abuse perhaps it shouldn't. Perhaps there is an argument that they should read it and face it. It may only result in conjuring more unanswered questions and apportioning blame, but they will know that.
Still, Trying to see it in the best light... I think they must be trying to deal with this tragedy and they can see some information at arms length that they think may help them to understand. It must be tortuous not being able to see it. For that reason I think they should be able to read it.

look I am not trying to make light of it.....I know its not the same, as i haven't suffered abuse of that nature and I don't have a private or public journal. But I think about my life here of which my family no nothing and private areas of my life with my D. I think of some awful things that have happened that I have kept from them for various reasons. I certainly do not want them to know about those things now, and I choose to keep it from them. However because I choose that now doesn't mean it would always remain that way. If something happened to me I think I would actually like them to know....about this 'secret' side of me, the trials and tribulations, the sadness and the love. Because ultimately its me.

 

[shy slave]

What a dilemma.

When my son drowned I had to go through his private papers and make decisions about what to keep and what to dispose of.
It was incredibly difficult, not from an emotional stance, but because these papers were private to him. Old love letters, bank statements etc nothing dramatic but still private papers that he had not felt he needed to share with me when he was alive.

After his death, Andante (my then owner), put up a tag wall on the net for everyone who knew my son to write anything thing they wished. Thoughts, feelings, memories, anything that moved them.

I was so greedy for the memories that other people had of him. I read and re-read them seeing my son in different ways and understanding him as a man, not just as my son.

Your friends parents must be going through hell. Not getting on with your family is hard to come to terms with. In life your friend made that choice, but in death there are few secrets. An autopsy strips away physical secrets and talk between people strips away emotional ones.

If your friends private online journal speaks of her feelings for her family in a negative way it would be very difficult for them to read, if it doesn't then it could give them comfort and some sense of closure regarding why she ended her life.

It may never give them understanding, death is not something that can be understood in terms of black and white scenarios.

Whatever reasons your friend had for taking her life, her family must want to know if their actions (or in-actions) were solely to blame.

I can understand their screaming desire to read her private journal, I understand only too well that dawning realisation that there will be no more memories to collect and think of later. What her family have in their heads now as memories, is the sum total of all they will ever have.

I know your wrote you think it is a little late for the family to feel they want to know her better, but it is never too late. How can it be? had she lived things may have changed in 10-15years time and they may have found a reasonable relationship between everyone, then again they may not; it is impossible to know for certain. However, The opportunity to find out has now gone. What they have left is guilt, it may be deserved but equally it is something they have to live with for the rest of their lives, regardless of whether they read her private journal or not.

I know it would crucify me if my sons friends had private knowledge about his thoughts and feelings that they would not allow me to know. That information may make me hate myself, or it may make me understand better the process that brought about such an estrangement.

Pet, only you can decide if you want to share your password with them, I have no idea where the law stands. I can only imagine the hell her family are in as they try to make sense of where it all went wrong for everyone involved.

I am rarely online Pet, but my pm box is open if you want to talk about this further.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Personally I don't think the family have some preconceived moral right to view any of the information unless it was your friends wish they were able to see it after she was gone. Keep in mind though I have what some consider some strange ideas in terms of not invading another's privacy etc., but it is just how I am and how my beliefs play out. I have been the loved one left behind when my father suicided without so much as a note. I still have a variety of thoughts on where his head was in that moment and why he felt it was the best answer for him, but I never went in search of anything he may have written somewhere or asked people I knew he spoke to in his last days what he said. Some people have volunteered what was said without my asking, and after his funeral etc., my parents neighbour knocked on the door and handed me a package he had given her just before killing himself, with instructions to give it to no-one but me, nor let anyone else know of its existence. It touched me to know he was thinking of me and wanted to make sure I had his treasures, but there were no answers in that package otherwise. Would I like to know exactly what he was thinking etc.? Yes. Would I see it as acceptable or my right to invade his privacy after death if I knew there might be a way of finding out via something he chose to keep private from me and/or others? No.

If your friends family were part of her abuse, chances are no matter what she wrote, they are not going to suddenly feel honestly remorseful for what they did, nor can they change it...more likely they might turn her words around to further attack her memory and reputation. People who didn't care enough when someone was alive rarely find some miraculous caring gene after they are gone. If they didn't take part in her abuse, once again, unless she wanted to share with them her thoughts and feelings, they are no more entitled on a moral/ethical level now than they were then....it could be like another abuse of her rights and dignity. There are some things which some people do not feel comfortable sharing with family even when there is no wrong doing...doesn't mean after they are dead it should be a free for all and the deceased feelings considered insignificant. I don't envy you your position but I agree you are acting as a friend by protecting her even after death. Perhaps a compromise may be for you or one of her other friends to talk to them about your friends state of mind and thoughts in a way they/you feel she might find appropriate....offer to answer any questions you might be able to if it helps and if you feel it is warranted.

Catalina

 

[the_pet]

thanks everybody for the thoughtful and heartfelt responses

i'm not the only one that knows the password so the family will, if they haven't already, get it from one of her college friends or have the site unlock the journal, under the circumstances (i'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time for blog sites)

pet

 

[Betticus]

If you feel that giving them the password will tarnish your memories of her then do not do it. If they get it some other way and learn things that they don't want to see then that is on them.

Just be true to yourself.

 

[RJMasters]

Ummm just stating an observation....perhaps getting access to the journal isn't about closure at all, maybe if there are details about abuse, they want access to be able to delete or get rid of anything which may be increminating.

As to my thoughts, I think you should continue to honor the privacy, for no one else's sake but your own. We must live with the decisions we each make according to our own consciouses. I think honoring the privacy of your friend who has past away is an important thing for you to do for you. Unless required by law to give up the password I would continue to keep the journal's password private.

I am sorry for your lost.

~RJ

Edited to add: Agrees with Betticus - "Just be true to yourself."

 

[Moonlit]

I am so sorry to hear about your loss of your friend...



If I were in your position, I think I would not give them the password. I believe that if she had wanted them to read what is there, she would have given them access.

I admire the way you have expressed yourself about this situation and I agree with what others have said...

be true to yourself.