One more reason to vote for Obama

[Stella_Omega]

No, I'm saying that living your life wondering what other people think about you is a complete waste of time. If you believe that Russian, China, Iran, Pakistan, or India are vastly more popular places, in terms of goodwill, vacation spots, or places people would like to live, then I would disagree. But a poll where somebody can say, "Yeah, America sucks!"? If that's what you want to worry about, it's your right. I won't. I certainly hope no leader of the country does.

I can see you aren't planning to visit anywhere but your own sweet home for the rest of your life.

You're so cute, the way you dismiss what I'm saying. Pretending it's high school. Have fun with that, While I worry about adult issues. Okay?

What poll are you assuming my views are coming from? Something from Fox news, perhaps?

 

[Guest]

There are still people here in the U.S. who believe that the reason we're hated by so many people in so many other countries right now is because they are jealous of us.

Clueless. But it makes for a convenient excuse to stay the course, doesn't it?

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Bear, i remember Vietnam, I was there too. America was hated somewhat, then. Nothing like now-- nothing. You know why? because we've done it again.

No, because there isn't any USSR to share the animosity. Besides, most of the hatred is on the part of those whose normal feeling towards us is resentment. There's only a little difference and it doesn't take much to push it one way or another. Even if we hadn't invaded Iraq, and I sure wish to Hell we hadn't, the Islamic street would still be irate over what we did and should have finished in Afghanistan. The only real difference is that for a while we had the French government pissed over Iraq. Now, that has all been shoved under the covers. Why? The current president likes America. Chirac always hated America because we dominate the planet, even when we're being benevolent.

The biggest and strongest will always be considered the bad guy by the smaller and weaker. The opinion of the street in other parts of the world isn't the issue. The issue is whether we are taking care of our own. That's were the current administration is falling down and the next will also. It will. No matter who gets elected, the next national administration will try to find some "one size fits all" solution to every national problem. It will get pork-barreled into stupidity by the Congress and won't work. Only local solutions can ever work because that's who is on the ground next to the problem. Decentralize, decentralize, decentralize.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Resented us, really? France, Belgium, Denmark, all of those little third-world countries. Switzerland.

The people that I talk to in these countries tell me that the US is way out of bounds.

 

[Elianna]

There are still people here in the U.S. who believe that the reason we're hated by so many people in so many other countries right now is because they are jealous of us.

Clueless. But it makes for a convenient excuse to stay the course, doesn't it?

Not that this has anything to do with the current debate, but I've traveled overseas pretty extensively. The rudest, ugliest travelers I've ever encountered were...you guessed it....
AMERICANS! (from Texas especially) There have been few American travelers that I've met on my journies that have seemed to respect the cultures and places they were visiting... there was always this sense of "I'm rich enough to travel. Grovel to me!"

Now I know this is stereotypical, but I've been ashamed of them. I'm sure this is only relating to the several hundred people I've met. There were a couple jewels, but mostly pieces of shit.

And then people wonder why American tourists are unwelcome....

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

Worst tourists I've ever met?

Middle Eastern. Very insistent, very picky, very pushy. I used to run hotels, I got to meet lots of travellers. Nicest? Japanese people. Very polite, very accomodating.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

I've been lots of places and met thousands of people. Some nice, some in serious need of a boot up side the ear, some in between. Americans stick out because we have an oversized need for personal space and some of us are downright rude about it. They're an embarrassment to the rest. However, anyone you treat decently will think well of you and I try to do that wherever I go, even on the net. Shoot, there are threads I won't even open because the manners are so bad. At least, however heated we may get on this topic, we seem to continue in a state of respect. Thank-you for that.


Now, let the angst continue . . .

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not that this has anything to do with the current debate, but I've traveled overseas pretty extensively. The rudest, ugliest travelers I've ever encountered were...you guessed it....
AMERICANS! (from Texas especially) There have been few American travelers that I've met on my journies that have seemed to respect the cultures and places they were visiting... there was always this sense of "I'm rich enough to travel. Grovel to me!"

Now I know this is stereotypical, but I've been ashamed of them. I'm sure this is only relating to the several hundred people I've met. There were a couple jewels, but mostly pieces of shit.

And then people wonder why American tourists are unwelcome....

Germans are often that way as well. The Canary islands are a favorite holiday destination for Germany... whoo boy...

I agree, though-- you can pick out Americans in any European crowd. Not every one, but-- if there's someone you can pick out, ten'll get you twenty it's an American.

It's a special, sublime, ignorance.

 

[S-Des]

You're so cute, the way you dismiss what I'm saying. Pretending it's high school. Have fun with that, While I worry about adult issues. Okay?

Snotty insults don't make your point any more correct. You aren't worrying about adult issues, you're using a small sampling of personal contact (that just coincidentally happens to fit your political viewpoint) to argue that you're right about a much more complicated issue. I didn't see if there was a thread, but were you upset when Pelosi screwed over Columbia last week? There was a case of a carefully constructed treaty to benefit millions of people in a smaller country, that was shuffled off to nowhere (not even getting a vote) as a favor to constituents and contributors. Columbia's government didn't seem to be too happy with us, but other than most of the newspapers condemning the act, it got very little play.

What's more interesting is how you phrase the war only in terms of how it hurts us. Most military experts predict that if we pull out before their government can police itself, there will be an all out effort to create civil war. If they are correct, and Obama does the full-on retreat like he promises (no matter what any of the experts tell him, as he promised at the last debate), how will the world view us? Will it help our cause if there is a disaster on the level of Rawanda? While starting the war may have damaged us in the world's eyes, how is us leaving because, "It just costs too much money," causing mass murder going to make anything better?

What poll are you assuming my views are coming from? Something from Fox news, perhaps?

You're the one who brought up world opinion. Unless you've personally interviewed hundreds of millions of people (and even that is a small sampling), you have to be relying on polls to prove your theory that the world hates us? How about a little more serious breakdown? What are the percentages? Do they change from dictatorships to democracies? Is race or religion a factor?

Just saying, "The world hates us, so we must be wrong," doesn't accomplish much.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Most military experts predict that if we pull out before their government can police itself, there will be an all out effort to create civil war.

This is an example of why I say that Bush is a criminal. And it angers me to the point of violence when reps sneer at the dems and talk about how they have no real plan for withdrawal.
"oh, sure, stop the war, how are you going to do that?"

No, we can't stop the war that Bush should never have been allowed to begin. I know this. And I know that Obama is well aware of it too. And I know about campaign promises, god knows, we've had training in them in these last few decades that will never be beat.

You may be right, and my "sample is too small." But If I'm overly concerned with how this effects us, you don't seem to be concerned at all. Perhaps there's a middle ground, huh?

And you don't seem to think I am serious when I say that this war, this killing spree that leaves a local man's face lying on the ground like a mask-- in the middle of what used to be a prosperous and busy city neighbourhood-- for the sake of one man's ego and a few corporation's profits-- is despicable enough to cause me to leave this country.

Why don't you respect that, I wonder?

yes, the Pelosi action took me by surprise. And such a small country, too and promising-- there are better targets if she really wants to see jobs returning to this country, like asking the corporations nicely if they would renew contracts back to the local factories.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

This is an example of why I say that Bush is a criminal. And it angers me to the point of violence when reps sneer at the dems and talk about how they have no real plan for withdrawal.
"oh, sure, stop the war, how are you going to do that?"

No, we can't stop the war that Bush should never have been allowed to begin. I know this. And I know that Obama is well aware of it too. And I know about campaign promises, god knows, we've had training in them in these last few decades that will never be beat.

You may be right, and my "sample is too small." But If I'm overly concerned with how this effects us, you don't seem to be concerned at all. Perhaps there's a middle ground, huh?

And you don't seem to think I am serious when I say that this war, this killing spree that leaves a local man's face lying on the ground like a mask-- in the middle of what used to be a prosperous and busy city neighbourhood-- for the sake of one man's ego and a few corporation's profits-- is despicable enough to cause me to leave this country.

Why don't you respect that, I wonder?

yes, the Pelosi action took me by surprise. And such a small country, too and promising-- there are better targets if she really wants to see jobs returning to this country, like asking the corporations nicely if they would renew contracts back to the local factories.

We pack up. We put things on boats and planes. And we leave.

The Constitution does not have The Pottery Barn Rule.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I do think, though, that these times are as divisive as anything we've ever been through. How we deal with it might-- I hope-- be a bit different, but this is pretty bad. really.

It's common for the right to dismiss liberal carpings on things like fair justice, and point at things like porkbarrelling instead. But we have become the bad guys in the eyes of the world. Bad guys, like the USSR of the sixties. Ultimately, I do not want to be a citizen of that kind of country. If we can't begin to get back on track, I and my family will pull up stakes-- In poverty if necessary, our money-thinkers might want to know. If enough people think that way I do--- well.

I don't think these times are nearly as divisive as the Viet Nam and Watergate eras - I was around then and politically tuned in, and I can tell you that nothing since has come close. Lefties just think "it's different this time" because their hatred for Bush has unhinged them just as much as hatred for Clinton unhinged righties in the 1990s. But it's all just "normal politics," which is a political science term (things like the Civil War and Great Depression were not).

Your comment on pork opens another issue, though, which is a bipartisan political establishment whose interests appear to be very much in conflict with those of the people, and behaves in very destructive ways as a result. The pork, the ethanol swindle, the creation of campaign finance "reform" that does nothing except protect incumbents, scientific gerrymandering, etc. In general, the entire bipartisan incumbent protection racket extant in every state and Congress. These appear to be a new thing in our democracy. I hesitate to say that because I suspect that people have been saying similar things since the beginning, but that's the way it feels.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I don't think these times are nearly as divisive as the Viet Nam and Watergate eras - I was around then and politically tuned in, and I can tell you that nothing since has come close. Lefties just think "it's different this time" because their hatred for Bush has unhinged them just as much as hatred for Clinton unhinged righties in the 1990s. But it's all just "normal politics," which is a political science term (things like the Civil War and Great Depression were not).

As you say, you were tuned in back then, and you've mentioned that you burned out-- can't blame you there-- and you are fairly tuned out. I think you are filtering things your way.

One thing that has slowed the process down, and I'll wear my tinfoil hat for a moment, is that three generations have grown up with sitcoms. Seriously, the entertainment media has brought about a mindlessnessof a sheepitude never before seen. Ceasar didn't offer the populace "bread and circusses" for no reason, and the circusses are better than they ever were. But the bread is starting to show scarcity...

Your comment on pork opens another issue, though, which is a bipartisan political establishment whose interests appear to be very much in conflict with those of the people, and behaves in very destructive ways as a result. The pork, the ethanol swindle, the creation of campaign finance "reform" that does nothing except protect incumbents, scientific gerrymandering, etc. In general, the entire bipartisan incumbent protection racket extant in every state and Congress. These appear to be a new thing in our democracy. I hesitate to say that because I suspect that people have been saying similar things since the beginning, but that's the way it feels.

This appears to be capitolism controlling our democracy, wouldn't you say?

We pack up. We put things on boats and planes. And we leave.

The Constitution does not have The Pottery Barn Rule.

That's right, Joe. If I find I can no longer love this country, and if I find that this country will not redeem itself, and that I can do absolutely nothing to change it for the better-- I'll leave.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

During Viet Nam I wasn't just tuned, I was in uniform. I had comrades insulted and abused just because they happened to be in uniform in an airport. There were countries, allied countries, where GI's on duty were ordered to do all their work in civvies and let their hair grow. Violence? How about Los Angeles and Detroit? Today isn't the Summer of Love but it sure isn't the verge of civil war.

And speaking of civil war, if we pull out of Iraq it won't cause a civil war because the dirty secret no one wants to talk about is that Iraq is already in the midst of a civil war. It isn't just between different versions of Islam, either. Sunnis are killing Sunnis, Shiites are killing Shiites. The only relatively calm place is Kurdestan and no one is willing to piss off the Turks by suggesting that it become an independent state. This is a part of the world without good guys. As I said when we first went in, winning the war was easy. Winning the peace may be impossible. Until tribes give way to nations, countriehood cannot occur and the Middle East has never, never gotten past tribes.

 

[Stella_Omega]

During Viet Nam I wasn't just tuned, I was in uniform. I had comrades insulted and abused just because they happened to be in uniform in an airport. There were countries, allied countries, where GI's on duty were ordered to do all their work in civvies and let their hair grow.

Have we heard from any current GI's, on how they are being treated in airports? I haven't, actually. I'd be interested-- it might be a more accurate barometer than my fears and Des's disregard...

 

[voluptuary_manque]

GI abuse was, IMO, the biggest mistake that the putative Left made back then. Ever since Viet Nam, service people have been accorded nothing but respect and thanks. It started out being purely astonishing and finally became almost embarrassing. Mention that you are a Vet or in the military and the immediate response is "Thank-you for your service." When we went into Grenada and into Panama, when the anti-war people tried to get organized, the first thing that they did was immediately attempt to distance themselves from those who blamed the common private for the decisions of the civilians in charge in Washington. It was too late.

Today notice that one of the main threads in the anti-war message is "Bring our brave sons and daughters home, for their sakes." It doesn't resonate too well with the grunts because most of them believe that they can get the country (Iraq) together if they are just given more time. I personally disagree but you have to give them credit for trying. When the COL across the street came home from his year in the sand, he came over and we sat on the porch rocking and talking. He allowed as how in the entire year there, he hadn't lost a single soldier and that he figured it was the greatest accomplishment of his career. This old master sergeant couldn't help but agree.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

That's right, Joe. If I find I can no longer love this country, and if I find that this country will not redeem itself, and that I can do absolutely nothing to change it for the better-- I'll leave.

I mean just leave Iraq. Its not our country.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Have we heard from any current GI's, on how they are being treated in airports? I haven't, actually. I'd be interested-- it might be a more accurate barometer than my fears and Des's disregard...

I was on a flight across the country this week. At the end of it the attendant got on the PA and asked everyone to give big hand for the service members on board. The response was exuberant, heartfelt and heartwarming.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I mean just leave Iraq. Its not our country.

And it wasn't ours when we came in and knocked it to pieces in the first place.

 

[sr71plt]

Worst tourists I've ever met?

Middle Eastern. Very insistent, very picky, very pushy. I used to run hotels, I got to meet lots of travellers. Nicest? Japanese people. Very polite, very accomodating.

Ummm, sorry to say it, but Israelis . . . and, yes, Americans, followed closely by Brits.

 

[sr71plt]

There are still people here in the U.S. who believe that the reason we're hated by so many people in so many other countries right now is because they are jealous of us.

Clueless. But it makes for a convenient excuse to stay the course, doesn't it?

I think it's only clueless of people who think that's the only reason those in the United States are hated. I've found that it is a reason for some, though. It's not an either/or matter.

 

[S-Des]

During Viet Nam I wasn't just tuned, I was in uniform. I had comrades insulted and abused just because they happened to be in uniform in an airport. There were countries, allied countries, where GI's on duty were ordered to do all their work in civvies and let their hair grow. Violence? How about Los Angeles and Detroit? Today isn't the Summer of Love but it sure isn't the verge of civil war.

And speaking of civil war, if we pull out of Iraq it won't cause a civil war because the dirty secret no one wants to talk about is that Iraq is already in the midst of a civil war. It isn't just between different versions of Islam, either. Sunnis are killing Sunnis, Shiites are killing Shiites. The only relatively calm place is Kurdestan and no one is willing to piss off the Turks by suggesting that it become an independent state. This is a part of the world without good guys. As I said when we first went in, winning the war was easy. Winning the peace may be impossible. Until tribes give way to nations, countriehood cannot occur and the Middle East has never, never gotten past tribes.

A+ I might disagree that it's currently a civil war, but everything else was said perfectly. The problem with McCain's Iraq position (in my eyes) is that it assumes winning the peace is possible. I sincerely hope it is, and can't stomach pulling out without continuing to try because we had a taste of how bad it will be in the last couple of years. However, I fear this is an argument without an answer. Any choice is likely to be the wrong one.

 

[S-Des]

This is an example of why I say that Bush is a criminal. And it angers me to the point of violence when reps sneer at the dems and talk about how they have no real plan for withdrawal.
"oh, sure, stop the war, how are you going to do that?"

No, we can't stop the war that Bush should never have been allowed to begin. I know this. And I know that Obama is well aware of it too. And I know about campaign promises, god knows, we've had training in them in these last few decades that will never be beat.

All good points. I disagree that he committed a criminal act (or at least a provable one), but he certainly committed a monumentally stupid one. It's one we'll be paying for (in many ways) for the rest of my life, unless this can somehow be turned around and at least a moderate success established.

You may be right, and my "sample is too small." But If I'm overly concerned with how this effects us, you don't seem to be concerned at all. Perhaps there's a middle ground, huh?

Absolutely. However, in the grand scheme of the world right now, the thing that's about 125th on my list is how the people of France (for example) feel about us. Those feelings are transient and will change with a different administration and different policies. Even if Bush's policies weren't so roundly criticized, the fact that he can barely form a coherent sentence has contributed mightily to the disdain for us and why we would vote for someone like him (I never did, btw). I think that instead of worrying that opinion of us might have fallen, we should continue to commit ourselves to doing the best we can to help people. After we figure out a way to feed hungry people, better fight AIDS & malaria, stop the rapes in the Congo, and help people who have different religious beliefs from slaughtering each other (and using innocents to accomplish it), then I'll worry more about our status. There has to be an order to how you live your life, and I'm trying to be honest about where that falls for me.

And you don't seem to think I am serious when I say that this war, this killing spree that leaves a local man's face lying on the ground like a mask-- in the middle of what used to be a prosperous and busy city neighbourhood-- for the sake of one man's ego and a few corporation's profits-- is despicable enough to cause me to leave this country.

I'm not sure when I gave you that impression, but it was certainly not intended. I never questioned how serious you were, I just disagree about the right way to go from here (and possibly that it's pointless to eat up the first years of the next presidency by trying to prove an impossibility). I care intensely about the situation in Iraq, and because the surge has brought it back to a safer situation then the last couple of years, I still have hope the situation could resolve itself in a way that would be better for them (which at this point is pretty much all that matters). I may be naive for believing that, but it's my sincere hope.

Why don't you respect that, I wonder?

I most certainly do.

yes, the Pelosi action took me by surprise. And such a small country, too and promising-- there are better targets if she really wants to see jobs returning to this country, like asking the corporations nicely if they would renew contracts back to the local factories.

The really sad thing about the situation is that the reason given was a lie (that it was being held up because of violence against union organizers). Secondly, it really wouldn't have changed anything on our end (so I've heard), but would have actually provided us with millions of new customers for our goods. What really bothers me is the chicken-shit way it was handled. She didn't have the votes, so she used a sleazy, back-door tactic to keep it from coming to the floor. If she felt it was bad, then grow a pair and make your case as to why.

I wasn't trying to trip you up here, btw. I honestly wanted to know if that bothered you too. I don't know if it will do major harm to our image in the world or not, but I think it's a terrible way to treat someone who has come so far in such a short time. I've heard quite a bit about their President and how amazing his story is. It was very upsetting to know that we let them down like that.

 

[freshface]

Have we heard from any current GI's, on how they are being treated in airports? I haven't, actually. I'd be interested-- it might be a more accurate barometer than my fears and Des's disregard...

As a current GI, I have experience with this one. I've flown a couple of times in uniform for various reasons in the last few years. The support is absolutely phenomenal. It's almost a little embarrassing. You aren't allowed to stand in lines or purchase food. in fact, when I ordered a meal, not only did they refuse payment, they included food I didn't request.

You can't go in to any public place on the bases in Iraq or Afghanistan without finding cards, posters, banners etc. from people in the US thanking us. Care packages and paperback books are constantly coming in; a lot of organizations and businesses have adopted units and individuals.

I think everyone learned that lesson from Vietnam. No matter what people might think of the war, no one seems to be holding the service members responsible this time.

 

[Stella_Omega]

As a current GI, I have experience with this one. I've flown a couple of times in uniform for various reasons in the last few years. The support is absolutely phenomenal. It's almost a little embarrassing. You aren't allowed to stand in lines or purchase food. in fact, when I ordered a meal, not only did they refuse payment, they included food I didn't request.

You can't go in to any public place on the bases in Iraq or Afghanistan without finding cards, posters, banners etc. from people in the US thanking us. Care packages and paperback books are constantly coming in; a lot of organizations and businesses have adopted units and individuals.

I think everyone learned that lesson from Vietnam. No matter what people might think of the war, no one seems to be holding the service members responsible this time.

Damn straight!

But there are a few differences;
We anti-war groups were pretty naive, during Vietnam. And there were a lot of men volunteering even after the truth had begun to come out-- that it was a manufactured war that could never be won.

In contrast this time, there is much more information available, and everyone knows that the government lied. We know that, for thirty years, the Army has been recruiting with slogans like; "Be! All that you can be!' and "Join the Army of one!" and has talked about honor and education, and that these recruits are being treated dishonorably and may never make use of that education.