Political Intuition

[Selena_Kitt]

Let's count up how many extras actually die during a movie war, shall we? Or live the rest of their lives without limbs-- or a face?

I said *gently* sweetie...

all stories are metaphors and have some reflection in the current culture, if they capture the collective imagination... I don't think liar meant to make a literal comparison...

but I do take your point about republican orchestration...

 

[mellowgyrl]

Not really... in that case, it would just be a vote *not* for Obama... might as well not vote at all, I suppose...

I would trust McCain to lead a war... which is just exactly why I think he's a bad idea...

I think people from both camps would probably prefer you didn't vote at all as opposed to voting for McCain if Hilary doesn't get the nod. I'm a democrat and my preference is Obama but I wouldn't dare let my finger press the button for McCain should Obama not be the democratic nominee! I'm not opposed to Hilary, she's just not my preference but I have far more confidence in voting for her than voting for McCain!

 

[3113]

Amazing what happens when an idiot is leader of a party, no plans, just bash Bush and scream alot.

Gosh. Where have you been the last 7 years? Not so amazing at all. We've had an idiot as a leader of a party (and a country), no long-term plans (except to help his buddies), who has done nothing but bash whoever was handy and a good target (friends as well as foes, patriots as well as enemies), and screamed a lot.

And looked at what he's done. I'd say, after 7 years, that such a phenomenon is no longer that amazing. Par for the course it would seem. The most popular figures in news and talk-shows and religion do exactly the same. Though I'll grant that most of them do have plans....to get everyone bashing those they want bashed, and screaming loud enough that no one communicates at all. So that no one hears what reasoned argument or good advice the other side might have to say.

Worked, too. It's all we do now. Bash each other and scream a lot. Why do you find this so amazing? From what I see, this is exactly the result that every conservative in the Republican party has wanted for America. To have it's leaders and their followers bashing and screaming and ridiculing each other without ever listening, thinking or discussing anything.

 

[rgraham666]

OMG!

I was JUST thinking that!

"This is how liberty dies - with thunderous applause..."

For me the similarity between current events and Star Wars was the final scene of the fifth movie. When all the clone troopers were marching.

I thought, "Both sides are now doomed. Neither is willing to do its own fighting. The Republic uses clones, the Trade Federation droids.

"Neither is willing to fight and die for what they believe in."

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

. . . but I do take your point about republican orchestration...

What about the "orchestration" that the patronizing left wants to impose on both the poor and the middle class? They will decide how you raise your childrent, they will make your health care choices, they will choose your retirement savings option, they will determine what is and what is not taught in schools that they control, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Yes, other side contains too many who want to tell you what you can and cannot do in your bedroom, and naturally that is a matter of some concern on a porn board, but it shouldn't cause us to lose sight of the bigger picture.

 

[neonlyte]

What about the "orchestration" that the patronizing left wants to impose on both the poor and the middle class? They will decide how you raise your childrent, they will make your health care choices, they will choose your retirement savings option, they will determine what is and what is not taught in schools that they control, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Yes, other side contains too many who want to tell you what you can and cannot do in your bedroom, and naturally that is a matter of some concern on a porn board, but it shouldn't cause us to lose sight of the bigger picture.

A lot of countries run fairly well with those education, health and pension constraints. You might believe they are more fucked up than the US; I don't think most of the EU would agree.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm sorry. This will be my last post.

As I live in a Communist country, Canada, where the government rules with an iron hand and I've just said something bad on another forum about our Dear Leader (who claims to be a conservative, in the U.S. sense but that's just for show). I also said that health care should be run by private enterprise only. If you can't pay for it, fuck ya.

So State Security is kicking in my door as I speak. I shall be arrested, tried and executed under Prime Minister Edict DLX-9806534, "Traitors Must Die!"

Nice to know you all.

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

Knew I'd never be able to post that with a straight face.

 

[Belegon]

What about the "orchestration" that the patronizing left wants to impose on both the poor and the middle class? They will decide how you raise your childrent, they will make your health care choices, they will choose your retirement savings option, they will determine what is and what is not taught in schools that they control, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Yes, other side contains too many who want to tell you what you can and cannot do in your bedroom, and naturally that is a matter of some concern on a porn board, but it shouldn't cause us to lose sight of the bigger picture.

Roxy, honestly... BOTH parties want to tell us how to run our lives... it's what politicians DO...

To the real point:

Selena, in order to use your intuition correctly, don't you need to have true and verifiable information to use it with?

The politics we are used to in this country are all about manipulating those sources of information and placing the images and verbage in the public arena that help the intuition you so value lean towards the candidate THEY want.

Do your research. Read. You're a writer and a woman whom I respect when she stands up for what she believes in... why would you take things at the face value presented by ANY of the politicos in the arena's most frequented by those who will NOT do their research and are thus most vulnerable to manipulation?

You all know who I support by now. Thus, my words are dismissed by some as being crafted to support only my candidate.

Read this post. All I am asking you to do is look closely at the three people we are still discussing. How do they respond to pressure? Do they cave? How do they respond when tested?

What is their history? Where and with whom are their experiences? What is their track record? How were there opinions formed?

What are their actions???

Movies were brought up. Over the last two years I have become acquainted with a brilliant screenwriter named Warren Lewis... and one thing he has said about movies applies to politics.

"Look at a characters actions, not at what they say. They may lie with words, but their actions will always reveal their true character."

He says it to me as a writer, warning me to never allow a characters actions to be inconsistent with his true nature. But the reason he says it is because the audience will pick up on it... because in real life, peoples actions do reveal their character. And in a movie, you don't have time to correct a bad impression.

Apply the rule. Action reveals character.

I could give you examples of the ways I believe action has revealed to me that I have made the right choice. But I don't want to taint this post.

Besides, everyone will jump on that anyway and start saying the things they want to say about who did what.

I can give you my POV and I'm sure I will later. But I want to keep this advice non-partisan.

Use your intuition. But use it based on all the information available, not just the information that is being screamed the loudest.

 

[mellowgyrl]

I'm sorry. This will be my last post.

As I live in a Communist country, Canada, where the government rules with an iron hand and I've just said something bad on another forum about our Dear Leader (who claims to be a conservative, in the U.S. sense but that's just for show). I also said that health care should be run by private enterprise only. If you can't pay for it, fuck ya.

So State Security is kicking in my door as I speak. I shall be arrested, tried and executed under Prime Minister Edict DLX-9806534, "Traitors Must Die!"

Nice to know you all.

http://bestsmileys.com/lol/1.gif

Knew I'd never be able to post that with a straight face.

Ouch! Never been poor I take it. I don't know how expensive insurance is in Canada but in the US its off the charts! It would be well over $500 for me to insure my entire family and if you're low income (like myself) that takes a chunk out of what little income you might bring home. Then you're faced with "Do I pay to keep the lights on or does Junior go without his vaccinations?" Tough decision ain't it?

 

[rgraham666]

Ouch! Never been poor I take it. I don't know how expensive insurance is in Canada but in the US its off the charts! It would be well over $500 for me to insure my entire family and if you're low income (like myself) that takes a chunk out of what little income you might bring home. Then you're faced with "Do I pay to keep the lights on or does Junior go without his vaccinations?" Tough decision ain't it?

We have public health insurance, mellow.

And I've been living on a disability for the last decade: $673 Cdn a month.

Plus, I was joking, poking fun at Roxanne.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

A lot of countries run fairly well with those education, health and pension constraints. You might believe they are more fucked up than the US; I don't think most of the EU would agree.

A matter of preference. It's still patronizing.

Roxy, honestly... BOTH parties want to tell us how to run our lives... it's what politicians DO...

Indeed. Not only is there a bipartisan concensus for patronistic statism, it's almost a religion in the general population. "Got a problem? Get a program."

 

[Stella_Omega]

What about the "orchestration" that the patronizing left wants to impose on both the poor and the middle class? They will decide how you raise your childrent, they will make your health care choices, they will choose your retirement savings option, they will determine what is and what is not taught in schools that they control, etcetera, etcetera, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Yes, other side contains too many who want to tell you what you can and cannot do in your bedroom, and naturally that is a matter of some concern on a porn board, but it shouldn't cause us to lose sight of the bigger picture.

And they want to make sure that your children die for their country.

Health care choices, what's taught in schools.. These things can be changed, as long as the participants are alive.

 

[mellowgyrl]

We have public health insurance, mellow.

And I've been living on a disability for the last decade: $673 Cdn a month.

Plus, I was joking, poking fun at Roxanne.

I'm sorry. I'll shut up now *hides under rock*

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm sorry. I'll shut up now *hides under rock*

Nah, don't do that!

You've illustrated a point that Roxanne continually wants to ignore-- the reason why so many of us are interested in nationalising health insurance.

 

[rgraham666]

The reason Roxanne is against public health insurance is because she's cool, being able to afford her own. And she really doesn't give two shrill hoots in Niffleheim what happens to anybody else.

Especially the poor. The lazy, immoral bastards.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

And away we go . . .

"How dare you question the status quo! How dare you suggest that there might be different, better ways to do things! How dare you suggest that our statist world is not the best of all possible worlds! You obviously must only care about yourself. You obviously must not care about the Good Society. You obviously must not care if children die. You obviously must be - eee-vil."

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Use your intuition. But use it based on all the information available, not just the information that is being screamed the loudest.

I agree with you... if I 100% trusted my intuition on this I wouldn't have posted, obviously.

As I stated, I've paid attention, I've done some research (probably a lot less than most of the politicos here, though, I'm sure!) and I attempt to find the least-biased sources (or at least know which slant I'm reading/hearing)...

and still, with all of that, I've got this bad feeling, and I'm trying to reconcile that with the rational argument. With all the waddling and the quacking, I know I should just call it a duck... but... there's that "but"... I know this guy looks like *the guy* and talks like *the guy*...

*shrug*

Maybe it's just pre-wedding jitters, who knows?

In this case, I'd be the happiest woman in the world to find my intuition was wrong... believe me. I'm not set on being right... I would love to see my bad feeling turn out to be nothing at all.

Not that I have much control over it one way or the other... one vote. That's all.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Nah, don't do that!

You've illustrated a point that Roxanne continually wants to ignore-- the reason why so many of us are interested in nationalising health insurance.

Roxanne the evil one on health care: http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=26330859&postcount=36

 

[Belegon]

I agree with you... if I 100% trusted my intuition on this I wouldn't have posted, obviously.

As I stated, I've paid attention, I've done some research (probably a lot less than most of the politicos here, though, I'm sure!) and I attempt to find the least-biased sources (or at least know which slant I'm reading/hearing)...

and still, with all of that, I've got this bad feeling, and I'm trying to reconcile that with the rational argument. With all the waddling and the quacking, I know I should just call it a duck... but... there's that "but"... I know this guy looks like *the guy* and talks like *the guy*...

*shrug*

Maybe it's just pre-wedding jitters, who knows?

In this case, I'd be the happiest woman in the world to find my intuition was wrong... believe me. I'm not set on being right... I would love to see my bad feeling turn out to be nothing at all.

Not that I have much control over it one way or the other... one vote. That's all.

In your first post, you compared your feelings to the Wizard of Oz. Girl, what I'm telling you to do is to look behind that curtain. Because, IMHO, if you look behind all three curtains you will come to the same decision I have.

If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be supporting him.

 

[cloudy]

And away we go . . .

"How dare you question the status quo! How dare you suggest that there might be different, better ways to do things! How dare you suggest that our statist world is not the best of all possible worlds! You obviously must only care about yourself. You obviously must not care about the Good Society. You obviously must not care if children die. You obviously must be - eee-vil."

I don't think anyone here thinks you're "evil," but rather that you have very little empathy for those less well off than you.

One gets the sense that you've never had to do without a day in your life.

 

[jomar]

So, I am updating my kid's passports and getting ready to move them out of the country during McCain's inauguration ceremony. My intuition says that they will be drafted if he wins.

I'm worried about that too.

 

[neonlyte]

And away we go . . .

"How dare you question the status quo! How dare you suggest that there might be different, better ways to do things! How dare you suggest that our statist world is not the best of all possible worlds! You obviously must only care about yourself. You obviously must not care about the Good Society. You obviously must not care if children die. You obviously must be - eee-vil."

Now, now... Stella's not that bad.


It's the same old argument. And this is not the thread for it.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

In your first post, you compared your feelings to the Wizard of Oz. Girl, what I'm telling you to do is to look behind that curtain. Because, IMHO, if you look behind all three curtains you will come to the same decision I have.

If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be supporting him.

What I'm afraid of is that there is much more lurking behind that curtain than we're aware of... and that we won't find it out until it's too late.

There's no way to see or know for sure what we're seeing is what we're going to get.

And that bad feeling I have? Makes me think there's something behind that curtain we just can't see...


btw, Roxy... I don't think the dems do any less in the orchestration dept... just for the record.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I don't think anyone here thinks you're "evil," but rather that you have very little empathy for those less well off than you.

Thank you for defining that. Really. (And Stella's great - I have great respect for Stella.)

Here is the misunderstanding: When I dissent with the statist faith that government can deal with complex human needs, I am often accused here of not caring for the less fortunate Some look down on me because they assume this must mean I don't care if complex needs are not dealt with.

Consider for a moment that I care just as much as you. If that is the case, ask yourself what must be going through my head. If I care just as much as you then I wouldn't be able to just shrug and turn my back at the sight of complex human needs not being dealt with, would I? So I must have some alternative in mind.

I do. It's called civil society. It's a huge philosophical discussion that is not appropriate to this thread. Most of you will say that I am moved by a faith that has no more foundation in reality than your faith in the ability of government to deal with complex human needs. That's fine, and I'll never convince most of you to join my “faith.” But consider one more thing: There is a vast amount of evidence disproving your faith in the ability of governemnt to meet complex human needs, and still you hold it, because you do care about those unmet needs, and yet can't imagine any other way to meet them on such a massive scale.

But there's one thing that can be said for my "faith": It's never been tried in an affluent post-industrial society, so I'm not holding it in spite of evidence that it doesn’t work.

Consider, then, the possibility that I'm the very opposite of uncaring. I'm someone who cares so much that I refuse to hold onto a broken faith, and so picks up a hopeful new one.

~~~~~~~

PS. Not that is matters much, but as a point of information, only late in my working life, only in the last several years, have I arrived at the median household income for this country. That's almost exactly what I now earn, and for the first 30+ years of my adulthood I've been below it - in some periods way below it.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Consider, then, the possibility that I'm the very opposite of uncaring. I'm someone who cares so much that I refuse to hold onto a broken faith, and so picks up a hopeful new one.

I never thought you didn't care... but often the way you present things makes it appear that way.

I agree that government hasn't worked out that well... I'd be open to a whole new structure, myself... but government is what we have in the moment. We can hold the vision for something else, certainly... but we still have to live where we are now.